Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #3

[IzzyBlanche]

Snip

Defense attorney Daniel Webb asked Berman about reports that Zahau had been fondled by her school principal when she was young, and why that might put her at risk for suicide.

“Sexual abuse can be devastating to the abused,” Berman answered. “It produces a sense of shame, as if they are to blame; low self-esteem.

Snip

At this point she's at very high risk for suicide,” said Berman, calling Max’s fall “the straw that broke the camel’s back” for Zahau’s emotional state.

He added, “To a reasonable degree of scientific certainty, she did die by suicide. That is my opinion.”

I find it appalling that anyone was even allowed to say this. What an insult. Not only to Rebecca but to all victims of sexual abuse. What a crock! MOO

I would also be very interested to know what this "scientific certainty" he speaks of us. Psychology/psychiatry isn't even considered a "hard" science.

 

[Imp]

<snipped to address>

And what is so extremely hard to reconcile is the almost immediate hire of a defense attorney for AS. It’s been thought, though never confirmed, that JS was the person who hired PP, a well-connected defense attorney. For me the question became why in the world would he believe it necessary to take this action this soon if AS had told him only that RZ committed suicide; unless, of course, AS had shared a bit of truth with his bro. If JS knew and kicked RZ’s dying body aside to help his brother does it not show a further element of heartlessness towards a woman with whom he allegedly was finding a way to build a future?
Simply my 2 cents.

My 2 cents: We're not privy to AS's history with women or what sorts of 'scrapes' his brother has gotten him out of over the years. He's mid-50's, never married, with a 72-year-old 'girlfriend' and a taste for *advertiser censored*. Such a taste, apparently, that on the occasion of his nephew's fatal accident, while in Coronado supporting his brother in his hour of need, he still had to satiate his appetite for *advertiser censored*. If JS's first reaction to hearing the devastating news of RZ's "suicide" was to line up a defense attorney for his bro, common sense suggests AS might have a history his brother is well aware of.

Imo, obviously.

 

[Imp]

Snip

Defense attorney Daniel Webb asked Berman about reports that Zahau had been fondled by her school principal when she was young, and why that might put her at risk for suicide.

“Sexual abuse can be devastating to the abused,” Berman answered. “It produces a sense of shame, as if they are to blame; low self-esteem.

Snip

At this point she's at very high risk for suicide,” said Berman, calling Max’s fall “the straw that broke the camel’s back” for Zahau’s emotional state.

He added, “To a reasonable degree of scientific certainty, she did die by suicide. That is my opinion.”

I find it appalling that anyone was even allowed to say this. What an insult. Not only to Rebecca but to all victims of sexual abuse. What a crock! MOO

100% agree. I couldn't even respond to this nonsense without getting into trouble.

 

[MyBelle]

Mybelle, it is inaccurate to say Adams DNA was not found anywhere in the house. It would be accurate to say it was not found on the select pieces they tested which of course excluded the numerous areas he willfully admitted to touching.

That mansion is huge. What evidence of AS was found in the specific area which was the crime scene on the upper level? I don't recall any. Thanks.

 

[Lezah]

First responders reported that her jaw was in rigor (and it would have been open if that top was still stuffed in her mouth).

Wow. YES!

 

[IzzyBlanche]

My 2 cents: We're not privy to AS's history with women or what sorts of 'scrapes' his brother has gotten him out of over the years. He's mid-50's, never married, with a 72-year-old 'girlfriend' and a taste for *advertiser censored*. Such a taste, apparently, that on the occasion of his nephew's fatal accident, while in Coronado supporting his brother in his hour of need, he still had to satiate his appetite for *advertiser censored*. If JS's first reaction to hearing the devastating news of RZ's "suicide" was to line up a defense attorney for his bro, common sense suggests AS might have a history his brother is well aware of.

Imo, obviously.

FWIW, I agree with every word. We have no idea what kind of history Adam might have.

 

[Lilibet]

I don't find Adam to be a liar. He's been under this cloud of suspicion for many years now and been accused of rape and murder yet there has never been a believable motive.

What I would like to see happen is the reopening of the investigation into Max's injuries.

It is never required to prove a motive in order to obtain a murder conviction. So I don&#8217;t think the seeming absence of a believable motive is a problem in a civil case.

There are plenty of murders that &#8220;just happen&#8221; without a definite motive when a situation escalates out of control. I believe that could very easily have happened in this case and the rest of it was elaborate staging.

May I ask why you accept the determination of suicide for RZ, but apparently not the determination of accidental injuries for Max? Both were investigated by the same department IIRC.

 

[MyBelle]

I believe you outlined the motive in the second part of your post. The mystery surrounding Max's death is precisely why I believe she was murdered. Imo.

RZ died while Max was still alive. The mystery surrounding his injuries would be best investigated by CPS/LE. Murdering RZ prior to any investigation makes no sense.

 

[Seattle1]

While administering cpr, why didn’t AS free RZ’s hand bindings? He had the knife readily available to cut her loose if he was having a problem untying the rope. I think most people have at least a tiny bit of knowledge about cpr, and the first thing you should do is make sure the victim is on a flat hard surface with hands by side. In testimony he said that he tried to feel for pulse but could barely get a finger under the rope bindings. I would think that right then he would say to himself “oh crap, let me get the knife to loosen these”.

My opinion

More than the hands - why the heck didn't he first loosen and/or remove the noose around or neck!

 

[BooBooTheFool]

My 2 cents: We're not privy to AS's history with women or what sorts of 'scrapes' his brother has gotten him out of over the years. He's mid-50's, never married, with a 72-year-old 'girlfriend' and a taste for *advertiser censored*. Such a taste, apparently, that on the occasion of his nephew's fatal accident, while in Coronado supporting his brother in his hour of need, he still had to satiate his appetite for *advertiser censored*. If JS's first reaction to hearing the devastating news of RZ's "suicide" was to line up a defense attorney for his bro, common sense suggests AS might have a history his brother is well aware of.

Imo, obviously.

This is what I was getting at! This is a puzzle and the pieces fit together but not for a suicide.

I'm angry at Rebecca being victimized again and the assassination of her character over things that she was not at "fault" with. So disheartening how power and privilege can help one elude justice. If Dominick Dunne's show were still running this case would end up being profiled on it.

Thank goodness it's a civil case. SDSO botched it so badly.

Do you really think Rebecca hog tied herself, gagged herself with a tshirt, threw herself over the balcony railing, used a knife, sat in her own menstrual blood for a long enough period of time for it to be on her feet, wrote a message on the door etc., ?

If it doesn't make sense, it's not true.

AS is weird to me. ..not just for being an odd dude with odd social interactions/mannerisms ... tugboat captain eh? Something about that career choice makes me think there's something in his background. That seems to be a job for someone lower in economic status.

The way AS, JS and Dina talk about Rebecca...it's like she wasn't even a person to them.

 

[BooBooTheFool]

I don't find Adam to be a liar. He's been under this cloud of suspicion for many years now and been accused of rape and murder yet there has never been a believable motive.

What I would like to see happen is the reopening of the investigation into Max's injuries.

What "believable motives" do rapes that turn into murders usually have besides opportunity?

 

[MyBelle]

It is never required to prove a motive in order to obtain a murder conviction. So I don&#8217;t think the seeming absence of a believable motive is a problem in a civil case.

There are plenty of murders that &#8220;just happen&#8221; without a definite motive when a situation escalates out of control. I believe that could very easily have happened in this case and the rest of it was elaborate staging.

May I ask why you accept the determination of suicide for RZ, but apparently not the determination of accidental injuries for Max? Both were investigated by the same department IIRC.

I don't believe both deaths were investigated with the same degree of thoroughness. Max is deserving of justice, too. I think if you want a jury to believe a man premeditated the murder and rape of his brother's girlfriend, a motive is always found to be helpful. Especially if both LE and ME have officially concluded it was suicide and testify there is no evidence of homicide by anyone.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I meant to comment on it earlier, and I am too lazy to look it up, but someone posted earlier about the community's support of Gore.

I can speak only for myself, but I am a local and I can't wait to vote him out of office. His office botched this investigation, it botched the McStay family investigation, and there is a third investigation that I believe it botched badly. The sooner the SDSO has new leadership, the better.

 

[Lolliknows]

Thank you Harmony! I’m new to Websleuths and need to learn how it works.

 

[MyBelle]

What "believable motives" do rapes that turn into murders usually have besides opportunity?

e

You tell me. I've never seen a case of suicide result in a civil lawsuit for wrongful death. The Plaintiff insists she was both raped and murdered. The burden of proof is on them. I'm waiting to hear what actual proof there is. All I've heard are multiple, unsubstantiated theories.

 

[justice be served]

I think it's possible that Adam hoped he could use the table as part of her staged suicide to explain her bent knees. Once he realized the table wouldn't work, he had to add that to the story, which he figured he would accomplish by pretending to drag that over during the 911 call. Forgive me for being graphic but if the table was placed under the weight of her body at any time, it's possible that the table made divots into the grass and therefore became a permanent part of the scene. All just my own thoughts and opinions.

BBM. I really think you have something here. Rebecca seems to have been in rigor and already dead by the time Adam strung her up. Once he "waited until daylight, masturbating" and whatever else he passed the time doing, he realized when her legs were still bent and he needed to call 911 that he had a huge inconsistency but didn't understand fully what to do about it. I agree, the table became part of the solution in his mind.

And BTW, his heavy breathing and shortness of breath didn't fool anyone. Especially as we heard all of it WHILE doing compressions and breaths AND holding his phone to his mouth. He was putting on a show it is quite obvious IMO. And that part came out clearly in his testimony and it made no sense.

 

[MyBelle]

I meant to comment on it earlier, and I am too lazy to look it up, but someone posted earlier about the community's support of Gore.

I can speak only for myself, but I am a local and I can't wait to vote him out of office. His office botched this investigation, it botched the McStay family investigation, and there is a third investigation that I believe it botched badly. The sooner the SDSO has new leadership, the better.

I'm curious. If locals felt that way about Gore, why didn't they vote him out of office the last election?

 

[BooBooTheFool]

I don't believe both deaths were investigated with the same degree of thoroughness. Max is deserving of justice, too. I think if you want a jury to believe a man premeditated the murder and rape of his brother's girlfriend, a motive is always found to be helpful. Especially if both LE and ME have officially concluded it was suicide and testify there is no evidence of homicide by anyone.

A lot of the time "motive" for crimes of opportunity (like sexual assaults that lead to murder) are lacking. There's usually forensic evidence that bolsters the claim. SDSO botched the investigation so badly right from the beginning; especially when it comes to what evidence would've been on RZ's body by leaving it uncovered for hours. With that kind of carelessness you can't in good conscience say that "LE and ME have officially concluded" because they didn't do what they were supposed to do and if they eventually got around to it, in regards to RZ's throat (can't remember if it was her larynx or not but they lost it), they didn't do it properly.. jmo.

 

[clearskies1]

e

You tell me. I've never seen a case of suicide result in a civil lawsuit for wrongful death. The Plaintiff insists she was both raped and murdered. The burden of proof is on them. I'm waiting to hear what actual proof there is. All I've heard are multiple, unsubstantiated theories.

Respectfully, the judge refused to grant the defense motion for non-suit. She ruled that there was sufficient evidence presented to allow the jury to decide.

 

[justice be served]

I meant to comment on it earlier, and I am too lazy to look it up, but someone posted earlier about the community's support of Gore.

I can speak only for myself, but I am a local and I can't wait to vote him out of office. His office botched this investigation, it botched the McStay family investigation, and there is a third investigation that I believe it botched badly. The sooner the SDSO has new leadership, the better.

Careful, as I believe there are many supporters of Gore right here on this forum. Check out some of the twitter posts that reference back to that.

And don't forget that lovely Gore was in charge of Ruby Ridge while with the FBI. Look that one up if you really want to get a flavor of what this guy's all about.