Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #3

[MyBelle]

Respectfully, even a lay person can understand that a vagina would have around the same or more epithelial cells as a mouth. The DNA analyst said that testing items for vaginal blood or oral swabs for DNA should show the presence of far more epithelial cells than if someone just touched the items. The count on Rebecca's oral swab was 600 nanograms. The swab of the knife handle was 35 nanograms.

35? Certainly was not in the vagina.

And if the handle was used to sexually assault RZ, it wouldn't have her prints clearly all over the blade, imo.

 

[MyBelle]

Cyril Wecht's opinion didn't "evolve".

That was proven in court with the letter (dated 2011) that was the cover page for the autopsy report that the defense tried mightily to keep out. Because the defense REFERRED to it, the judge ruled it in, and it was displayed on the monitor and read to the jury at the end of one of the trial days.

There is a great, very detailed post upthread about that exact process that unfolded in court, posted by one of the attendees from WS. I don't have time to look for it right now. Hopefully, you can find it.

I disagree. His opinion he stated on Dr. Phil absolutely did change. I don't put a lot of weight in anything an attendee says unless they are a member of the news media. Lay people can be very biased.

 

[MyBelle]

Honest question here, why didn’t Greer call the medical examiner? Is there some legal reason that he could not?

Good question. I've wondered the same thing.

 

[*Lash*]

Dina did not appear during sweeps week and have Max’s body exhumed for the show.

Some people found the exhumation of Rebecca to be a macabre publicity stunt. I don’t believe anyone “judged” the Zahaus for this, but certanly some found it to be distasteful.

Respectfully- Who are these some people? Rhetorical, don’t answer. Comments left on internet articles? There are plenty of online internet articles with commentators who believe RZ was murdered. Heck, there is even an article from 2011 where Coronado residents were interviewed. I could post it.

Come on, do we really want to do the tit for tat, ring around the rosie dance? Using the word “but”, then distasteful”,...Come, on both families wanted to be the voice for their deceased loved one.

 

[Tortoise]

And if the handle was used to sexually assault RZ, it wouldn't have her prints clearly all over the blade, imo.

different knife.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Thank you for the kind way you’ve phrased your post, Oceanblueeyes. Even though I’ve never believed RZ committed suicide, your questions are good ones and food for thought. I won’t tackle each one, because honestly, I don’t know. I do believe that this may have started as an assault in which RZ was forced to tie the knots herself. I have wondered if the assault took place in the guest house, which would account for no DNA of AS in the crime room. I’m also not convinced that RZ was ever hanging from the balcony. If AS was wearing gloves for the whole event, that could account for lack of DNA where he “cut her down.” He may have forgotten that there needed to be DNA there. I’m not sure that AS figured out the scene out to the last detail. I do think there is enough ambiguity in the scene that it’s hard to know whether it was intended to look like suicide or murder...hence the lawsuit. I think it will be very hard for the jury to decide.

Obviously, I can’t prove what I believe, but I have always believed that it defies credulity that RZ took her own life in such a bizarre and demeaning way, with so much detail involved, and in such haste. That her body was left exposed to view was so insulting and disrespectful that it adds to my suspicion that things are not what they seem. I will await the verdict.
JMO

JMO

I really have no further comments about this case except in this post, but I just wanted you to know how much I appreciate your kind reply. As soon as I posted the questions I had my next door neighbor come over for a long visit. I didn't want you thinking I am not appreciative of your reply or thinking I ignored you when that would never happen.

I have served on a civil case and several criminal cases. Even though a civil case is decided by the preponderance of evidence I have found civil jurors take them as seriously as if they were deciding a verdict in criminal case. Jurors are very aware whatever they decide will effect the lives of either the plaintiff/s or the defendant/s. So they want to make sure they are convinced one way or the other since so much is at stake for either side. IMO

I think this jury will be fair and unbiased and look at all testimony presented by both sides. After all that is their duty they swore to uphold and truly it is the way it should always be done. They are to put their emotions or any biases they may have aside whether it is for the plaintiff or the defendant and simply look at the evidence entered by both sides to weigh their verdict.

I can see both sides and I do believe there was evidence from both sides for the jury to weigh.

Whatever the jury decides I will respect their determination since they are the ones who have heard all of the evidence entered from beginning to end.

Did the jury hear that at one time the plaintiff's attorney had also brought a lawsuit against Max's mom and her sister accusing them of murdering Rebecca? Just wondering if that was brought out in the trial.

Thank you again for replying.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Good question. I've wondered the same thing.

I wondered about that myself. He could have called him to testify even if he treated him as a hostile witness.

 

[MyBelle]

Respectfully- Who are these some people? Rhetorical, don’t answer. Comments left on internet articles? There are plenty of online internet articles with commentators who believe RZ was murdered. Heck, there is even an article from 2011 where Coronado residents were interviewed. I could post it.

Come on, do we really want to do the tit for tat, ring around the rosie dance? Using the word “but”, then distasteful”,...Come, on both families wanted to be the voice for their deceased loved one.

Actually, it was the news media who carried the comments about Dr. Phil and the exhumation rather than social media. Here's but one:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sheneg...exploitation-of-zahau-tragedy/2/#44b338106b6b

 

[*Lash*]

Respectfully snipped-

Another couple observations I have that are hopefully not lost on the jury.

Rebecca was *actually* interviewed by a psych specialist at the time of Max's accident. That person testified in court that there were no concerns about Rebecca's words or demeanor, feelings, suicidal warning signs, etc. That individual is an expert in CRISIS psychology, and was called to ride along to the scene, IIRC.

Yes! This reminded me of something in JS’s testimony. He testified that he and Rebecca had been seeing a counselor about how to make the family work. This surprised me because I imagined this counselor would have a good idea of how Rebecca and JS both were coping with the situation. Does anyone know if this counselor JS alleged they were seeing was ever questioned about Rebecca?

 

[stmarysmead]

Has anyone asked Mr Greer why he did not call the Medical Examiner?

In a civil trial, does the plaintiff have the opportunity for rebuttal?

 

[Lezah]

The balcony was only 3” high. The height of a yard stick. Rebecca had no problem at all leaning over it and then failing.

The Defense had a woman and replica of the railing ready to go to show the jury how easily Rebecca could have gone over, but Greer objected to it being used. Why would he object it it was so hard to do?

No matter what Greer says, it was easy for her to go over that railing and the 11” disturbance shows she leaned over till she fell.

I’m sure the jury is wise enough to understand a woman of Rebecca’s fitness level would have no problem at leaning over that 3’ railing.

Ahhhh, so you were in court.

Isn't it interesting how your opinion of proceeedings differs from mine. You have completely dismissed the lack of DNA on the rail, the expected skin abrasions, and the lack of dirt transfer, all direct evidence shown in court, which made a significant impression on me personally.

You choose to focus on Greer’s assertions, but not the witness. But I understood what Greer says isn’t evidence, as the judge repeatedly says that to the jury, so I was trying to focus on what the jury is allowed to consider after taking instruction from the Judge.

This is exactly why you can’t predict what a jury is thinking, we are completely polarized in opinion on this issue. In deliberations I would probably try to persuade you take your guidance from the judge on what you can and cannot consider as evidence, and also that this is direct evidence, so much less open to interpretation IMO.

Do you not feel there is an obvious disparity when the defense argue ‘no AS DNA indicates no presence’...but in the case of the rail, a naked body scraping over the rail by a ‘DNA shedder’ like RZ ...leaves no DNA...? .it just doesn’t work for me in this particular scenario. We will have to agree to disagree.

Do you also recall when the defense attorney physically ‘jumped’ with his feet together to demonstrate the ‘leap’ on the balcony was possible for RZ too?

This was a HUGE mistake IMO. It really exemplified how ridiculous the proposition was ( you probably saw some members of the jury laugh due to the deafening thud in the courtroom after he launched himself forward!)

(On a side note I heard from chit chat in the break that a police officer actually came up to investigate from the court below as it was such a loud ‘bang’! ) I agree...before you say it...HEARSAY!

( PS for those not there to see...the judge also reminded the jury that the defense attorney’s ‘leap’ was not evidence...only the witness testimony..which was the experts balcony layout, the witness ‘demonstrative’ and his testimony. I tried to discount it..but it was so funny I couldn’t forget it!)

It was a moment of levity in an otherwise tense day in court, and an absolutely unforgettable one at that! Odd, but I beleive that attorney hasn’t been in court since ( maybe he is now working for the Cirque Du Soleil?)

Finally, regarding your question re Greer’s objection to the defense using a random woman from the gallery to demonstrate RZs death, you should recall that the judge made it very clear why this was not appropriate ( for very obvious reasons, even to a legal novitiate like me!)

My notes read ‘very bizarre’ regarding this request...

I have a question for you...the defense objected vehemently to a demonstration by Greer of the length of the rope being shown to the jury demonstrate RZ’s hanging height ( and distance of her feet from the ground) when being cut down...

They then even objected to a simple ruler being used to show how far her feet were from the ground...

...so why would they object to the rope hanging length demonstation so strongly? And then object again so strongly to the jury being shown how high her feet were from the ground, even with a ruler? Why was that such a big issue?

( all my opinion gleaned from my notes and experience in the court room)

 

[*Lash*]

Actually, it was the news media who carried the comments about Dr. Phil and the exhumation rather than social media. Here's but one:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sheneg...exploitation-of-zahau-tragedy/2/#44b338106b6b

Respectfully, I am declining this dance. Thank you.

 

[Tortoise]

Has anyone asked Mr Greer why he did not call the Medical Examiner?

In a civil trial, does the plaintiff have the opportunity for rebuttal?

Perhaps he knew his failure to testify to his professional opinion spoke louder to the jury.

 

[Lezah]

Another couple observations I have that are hopefully not lost on the jury.

Rebecca was *actually* interviewed by a psych specialist at the time of Max's accident. That person testified in court that there were no concerns about Rebecca's words or demeanor, feelings, suicidal warning signs, etc. That individual is an expert in CRISIS psychology, and was called to ride along to the scene, IIRC.

The psych specialist who testified for the defense never met Rebecca, never spoke to her, or her family, or friends. And presumably also never spoke to the crisis psych specialist who *actually* spoke to Rebecca hours before her death. This defense psych expert offered "squishy psych" opinions about remote, heresay, and second hand information as if they were as factual as a lab result.

An actual medical examiner who conducted an actual autopsy of Rebecca testified for the plaintiffs, and discussed and defended his work and his opinions in this case.

A medical examiner from 1000+ miles away who never worked in California, or San Diego, who did not work with Dr. J. Lucas, who never conducted any autopsy or tissue exams of Rebecca, testified *about* the autopsy report done by J. Lucas, for the defense. He could not testify ABOUT the autopsy-- he testified about the REPORT prepared by J.Lucas. And J. Lucas did not testify at all.

Unless the jury was told J.Lucas wasn't available, and no one else from the SD ME's office was available, or that the ME who did the autopsy is dead or something, the jury should *wonder* about that. Why did the defense call this ME to talk about someone else's autopsy report?? Why didn't the author show up and discuss his work? (I think we all know the answers to that, but I hope the jury is inquisitive and thoughtful.)

These are great points K_Z.. You bring up very relevant observations that are quite easy to overlook. Thankyou.

My friend who was in court told me there was no reference made at all to the jury as to why Dr Lucas did not attend court. ( she has attended every day of the trial)

 

[Mica]

I came to this case much later than most and I’m not nearly as informed as many here. I admire all for your dedication to the cause, your insight and intelligence in deciphering the evidence, and your research abilities. Apologizing in advance if this information has already been discussed, verified, or debunked.

Old article with some good info listing 45 items removed from the mansion. Good timeline of events regarding DS and JS activity. I didn’t realize there were 3 black gloves found at the scene and two additional narrow shoe prints from a third unknown person found on the balcony (in addition to the police officer’s boot print.) I assume the gloves were never tested? Would certainly explain the lack of killer’s DNA left behind. What about the additional shoe prints?

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15505829/some-shacknai-search-warrants-to-be-unsealed

 

[stmarysmead]

Perhaps he knew his failure to testify to his professional opinion spoke louder to the jury.

Could be.

Any speculation as we wait as to what the jury may decide. Not what we think they SHOULD decide...Especially interested on opinions from those who were in court and saw reactions.

Also, do we know if they can render a split judgement?

 

[stmarysmead]

I came to this case much later than most and I’m not nearly as informed as many here. I admire all for your dedication to the cause, your insight and intelligence in deciphering the evidence, and your research abilities. Apologizing in advance if this information has already been discussed, verified, or debunked.

Old article with some good info listing 45 items removed from the mansion. Good timeline of events regarding DS and JS activity. I didn’t realize there were 3black gloves found at the scene and two additional narrow shoe prints from a third unknown person found on the balcony (in addition to the police officer’s boot print.) I assume the gloves were never tested? Would certainly explain the lack of killer’s DNA left behind. What about the additional shoe prints?

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15505829/some-shacknai-search-warrants-to-be-unsealed

Testimony was the the fingerprint expert can detect if gloves were worn...leaves a certain type of ridge. No glove indications were found.

 

[screecher]

Whether JS knew of Dina's photos or not really is irrelevant. JS asked the California AG to reopen the investigation so obviously he supported Dina's goal of getting Max's investigation reopened. Perhaps the outcome of this lawsuit will result in that happening now. I think we all agree that Maxie deserves justice.

If JS really, really wanted his beloved little boy's case reopened, I have no doubt it would have been done.

I believe he knows EXACTLY why/how Maxie was fatally injured.

Hence, he didn't need his son's case reopened.

What baffles me is why would DS bring a WDS against him, to get some answers, only to blow it off ?



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[MyBelle]

I came to this case much later than most and I’m not nearly as informed as many here. I admire all for your dedication to the cause, your insight and intelligence in deciphering the evidence, and your research abilities. Apologizing in advance if this information has already been discussed, verified, or debunked.

Old article with some good info listing 45 items removed from the mansion. Good timeline of events regarding DS and JS activity. I didn’t realize there were 3black gloves found at the scene and two additional narrow shoe prints from a third unknown person found on the balcony (in addition to the police officer’s boot print.) I assume the gloves were never tested? Would certainly explain the lack of killer’s DNA left behind. What about the additional shoe prints?

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15505829/some-shacknai-search-warrants-to-be-unsealed

The belief there were unexplained footprints was expressed by a private investigator, Maurice Godwin, hired by the family. He apparently reviewed photos. I don't believe he testified at the trial but I might be mistaken.

 

[MyBelle]

If JS really, really wanted his beloved little boy's case reopened, I have no doubt it would have been done.

I believe he knows EXACTLY why/how Maxie was fatally injured.

Hence, he didn't need his son's case reopened.

What baffles me is why would DS bring a WDS against him, to get some answers, only to blow it off ?



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Sorry, I'm not aware of any WDS brought by Dina.