Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #4

[justice be served]

BBM. More from Tortoise's transcription/notes on Tricia's interview w/Mr. Greer.

Imo, this is also why we're hearing talk of appeals from the other side.

That is called dirty pool and I am sure the ME and other officials being pulled from testifying weren't lost on the judge. She doesn't pull any punches with anyone from what I have seen of her manner.

 

[stmarysmead]

BBM. More from Tortoise's transcription/notes on Tricia's interview w/Mr. Greer.

Imo, this is also why we're hearing talk of appeals from the other side.

I don’t think you’re hearing talks of appeals from any official member of the “other side”...just from little ole Websleuther me.

I do think appeals are likely. JS has the funds to keep this going and without stronger evidence against AS, I think they have a strong case.

The Z family have a ratings bonanza and a Jose Baez opportunity to anyone who will keep their hopes alive.

I think this discussion Board has a few more years in it, folks

 

[Tortoise]

I don’t think you’re hearing talks of appeals from any official member of the “other side”...just from little ole Websleuther me.

I do think appeals are likely. JS has the funds to keep this going and without stronger evidence against AS, I think they have a strong case.

The Z family have a ratings bonanza and a Jose Baez opportunity to anyone who will keep their hopes alive.

I think this discussion Board has a few more years in it, folks

Do you think Dan Webb has failed to make a strong case then?

 

[Lezah]

This case has become one of dueling experts. All of us can pick the expert opinion we want to believe. What is indisputable is that there is no tanigable evidence of AS at the scene...no dna and no fingerprints.

I read Mr Greer’s explanation of DNA. But he cannot explain away the absence of fingerprints. The wipe down he alleges is a small area of the door and the Defense expert has numerous reasons why the powder may not have adhered. I don’t believe in Magic dryer sheets.

That leaves a very large “crime”scene with no fingerprints, or trace evidence. Greer feels he has proven murder and AS was the only guy around. But crimes of opportunity happen when doors to homes...much less mansions...are left open. Anyone who read of the terrible injury to the son of the owner might conclude it was an opportunity to rob while the owners were at the hospital.

I could not remove everything this man has worked for and give it to the Zahaus without actual evidence...that’s not the Justice.

There are hundreds of successfully prosecuted cases where there has been only circumstantial evidence.

Absence of DNA or Fingerprints at a crime-scene is not an exoneration.

 

[stmarysmead]

Do you think Dan Webb has failed to make a strong case then?

The way I see it is that both plaintiff and defense made a good showing but they have dueling experts. On issues like the knots etc they just cancel each other out. Everyone gets to pick the experts they want to believe.

I believe Greer is going to try to reach the jury emotionally to tip the balance. That often works for juries. It’s going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

I can only say that I would need a great deal more evidence to vote for the plaintiffs case.

I wonder why the defense wanted a combined verdict?

 

[MsFacetious]

It pains me to do this but I'm going to agree with both sides in one post. :thud:
Working in the justice system has really opened my eyes to these things.
It's unnerving to almost be "taking the perps side" in a lot of cases now!

I fully support Rebecca's family for what they are doing, they believe in it!
I also admire Mr. Greer for doing the same, he reminds me so much of my boss!

When anyone posts there issues with things not tested, I can understand the frustration. But I could not vote to label a man a murderer and financially ruin him because there MIGHT HAVE BEEN something there.

For whatever reason, the plaintiffs do not have that evidenc3 and NO ONE can say any evidence exists. You just can’t. You can say you are frustrated but you can’t say for sure that you would definitely have found anything.

That’s too low a bar for me.

I........ agree......
I absolutely think Adam likely killed Rebecca.
I just don't think they've proven it was Adam.

We see burglaries all the time during funerals.
It is not impossible that someone knew what happened and took advantage.
Many crimes are crimes of opportunity, perhaps someone simply acted at the right time.
It's even possible that it was a copycat of the previous killer or a hired hit.

As long as I believe any of these are possible, I couldn't "convict" Adam.
I've seen "preponderance of the evidence" seriously screw innocent people.
So, I fully admit I may be a bit biased right now.

There are hundreds of successfully prosecuted cases where there has been only circumstantial evidence.

Absence of DNA or Fingerprints at a crime-scene is not an exoneration.

This is absolutely true. No DNA or prints doesn't mean he didn't do it.
However, "he was the only one who admits being there" is not enough to prove he did.

IF a proper and thorough investigation had been done it may be different.
However since they botched the investigation, I don't think he can be found responsible.
Botching the investigation means that we simply can't prove if it was Adam or not.

It's infuriating and Rebecca being left to bake for hours will ALWAYS haunt me.
However, I simply don't think there will ever be any kind of "justice" in this case.
I absolutely hate that for everyone involved. :gaah:

 

[Tortoise]

The way I see it is that both plaintiff and defense made a good showing but they have dueling experts. On issues like the knots etc they just cancel each other out. Everyone gets to pick the experts they want to believe.

I believe Greer is going to try to reach the jury emotionally to tip the balance. That often works for juries. It’s going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

I can only say that I would need a great deal more evidence to vote for the plaintiffs case.

I wonder why the defense wanted a combined verdict?

Oh right, I misunderstood your previous post. I thought you were predicting an appeal by the defense.

 

[stmarysmead]

Oh right, I misunderstood your previous post. I thought you were predicting an appeal by the defense.

I am...but it’s just an opinion.

 

[Imp]

That is called dirty pool and I am sure the ME and other officials being pulled from testifying weren't lost on the judge. She doesn't pull any punches with anyone from what I have seen of her manner.

Agree. I'm left wondering if the defense really ever intended to put Lucas on the stand in the first place. The 12+ hour time lapse between the 911 call and the ME's arrival on the scene, coupled with major discrepancies between Wecht's autopsy findings and Lucas's that Lucas certainly didn't address very well in the presser he attended, coupled with the possibly missing organ(s) from Rebecca's throat, I'm guessing the defense had to know things weren't likely to go well with Lucas on the stand.

 

[Tortoise]

Agree. I'm left wondering if the defense really ever intended to put Lucas on the stand in the first place. The 12+ hour time lapse between the 911 call and the ME's arrival on the scene, coupled with major discrepancies between Wecht's autopsy findings and Lucas's that Lucas certainly didn't address very well in the presser he attended, coupled with the possibly missing organ(s) from Rebecca's throat, I'm guessing the defense had to know things weren't likely to go well with Lucas on the stand.

Especially having Davis lined up to take his slot. Why would he have been on the witness list if Lucas was going to take the stand? Unless he was sent the AR to read over the weekend and inserted on the list Monday morning.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I had sleepovers when I was a teenager. Even with super rich kids.
I don't ever remember throwing my underwear away there.
What am I missing?

I have wondered the same. Why would anyone throw away underwear unless it suddenly became unusable for some reason? Torn, perhaps?

 

[squareandrabbet]

I had sleepovers when I was a teenager. Even with super rich kids.
I don't ever remember throwing my underwear away there.
What am I missing?

Maybe the teen realized after she'd packed them that said underwear was in poor/embarrassing condition (torn/stained/otherwise)?

I don't think it's wholly likely and normal behavior, but I can envision a scenario where a teen, say, caught out on her period at a sleepover, preferred tossing the panties surreptitiously to being found washing them out in cold water in the bathroom sink.

 

[kittychi]

Maybe the teen realized after she'd packed them that said underwear was in poor/embarrassing condition (torn/stained/otherwise)?

I don't think it's wholly likely and normal behavior, but I can envision a scenario where a teen, say, caught out on her period at a sleepover, preferred tossing the panties surreptitiously to being found washing them out in cold water in the bathroom sink.

If they'd had blood on them or were torn, those would have been even more compelling reasons to test them. IMO it is obvious this was one of the times they deferred to JS. He said his daughter had a friend over and they were hers, so they took his word for it. Seems they could have at least kept them to test later if needed.

 

[BBL]

Maybe the teen realized after she'd packed them that said underwear was in poor/embarrassing condition (torn/stained/otherwise)?

I don't think it's wholly likely and normal behavior, but I can envision a scenario where a teen, say, caught out on her period at a sleepover, preferred tossing the panties surreptitiously to being found washing them out in cold water in the bathroom sink.

That is an interesting perspective. Although if said teen was too embarrassed to rinse out underwear, I'd think she would have wrapped the underwear in toilet paper or something when throwing it away.

Sadly, we'll never know because the LE never bothered to process it.

 

[BBL]

Websleuths assists and collaborates with some law enforcement agencies in cases. We have members who are verified law enforcement officers.

RSBM I'm not sure this is allowed, so please delete if this is an inappropriate ask...

I know we often ask the opinion of verified lawyers on these threads. Are there verified law enforcement officers that can give an opinion on the investigation? Are we allowed to ask?

Particularly, is it common for an ME to arrive so late to a scene? What about the fact that this specific scene was first viewed as a homicide yet a lot of the scene/evidence wasn't processed?

I'm being very sincere about these questions because I'm trying to understand what is appropriate in this sort of circumstance. I'm curious to hear a perspective from someone that actually has experience, much like we ask the verified lawyers.

 

[kittychi]

RSBM I'm not sure this is allowed, so please delete if this is an inappropriate ask...

I know we often ask the opinion of verified lawyers on these threads. Are there verified law enforcement officers that can give an opinion on the investigation? Are we allowed to ask?

Particularly, is it common for an ME to arrive so late to a scene? What about the fact that this specific scene was first viewed as a homicide yet a lot of the scene/evidence wasn't processed?

I'm being very sincere about these questions because I'm trying to understand what is appropriate in this sort of circumstance. I'm curious to hear a perspective from someone that actually has experience, much like we ask the verified lawyers.

Hope it's okay to ask too. So glad you asked, BBL, I would love to hear answers to those questions also.

 

[Elisaa444]

Hi Jessica2012:

I don't know how to bring a post over from the last thread to quote it....but I want to Thank You for taking the time to give me the different places where I can locate information on this case.....and especially thanks for the heads up on the San Diego Union Tribune link.

and Thank You for giving me your opinion on what you think happened. I just read through that once so I need to re-read it again and digest it. I appreciate your input. You have given me a lot to think about.

 

[Lilibet]

I’ve been thinking about the argument that AS did not leave DNA so he wasn’t there. I have a feeling that if his DNA was present we’d be reading all about how DNA can be transferred to places someone has never been. In other words, IMO it’s the totality of evidence that points to AS, and lack of DNA doesn’t convince me he wasn’t there. What did investigators do before it was possible to find DNA? They looked at all the evidence (including circumstantial)...and that is what has been laid out so well by Mr Greer and posters here.
JMO

 

[MyBelle]

When anyone posts there issues with things not tested, I can understand the frustration. But I could not vote to label a man a murderer and financially ruin him because there MIGHT HAVE BEEN something there.

For whatever reason, the plaintiffs do not have that evidenc3 and NO ONE can say any evidence exists. You just can’t. You can say you are frustrated but you can’t say for sure that you would definitely have found anything.

That’s too low a bar for me.

ITA. I can understand the frustration. I can also understand that the gathering of forensics is being done by professionals but they also have a responsibility to manage resources. The SDSO acted in good faith and they did immediately launch a homicide investigation. The Plaintiff theory that this was a homicide disguised as a suicide is a flawed theory because LE did not fall for it.

The theory that AS murdered RZ because of retaliation for Max's injuries is also a flawed theory because AS was only aware that RZ had performed life-saving CPR. The testimony indicates doctors first believed Max suffered a cardiac arrest for an unknown reason. There was no testimony that Adam was aware a physician had told the parents that Max would never walk or talk again. That seems to be a development that happened AFTER Jonah returned to the hospital following dinner.

There is no evidence to support probable cause for an arrest yet the man has been on trial in the court of public opinion for seven years. His right to due process has been trampled. That is the part that I find so objectionable in this case. JMO

 

[stmarysmead]

ITA. I can understand the frustration. I can also understand that the gathering of forensics is being done by professionals but they also have a responsibility to manage resources. The SDSO acted in good faith and they did immediately launch a homicide investigation. The Plaintiff theory that this was a homicide disguised as a suicide is a flawed theory because LE did not fall for it.

The theory that AS murdered RZ because of retaliation for Max's injuries is also a flawed theory because AS was only aware that RZ had performed life-saving CPR. The testimony indicates doctors first believed Max suffered a cardiac arrest for an unknown reason. There was no testimony that Adam was aware a physician had told the parents that Max would never walk or talk again. That seems to be a development that happened AFTER Jonah returned to the hospital following dinner.

There is no evidence to support probable cause for an arrest yet the man has been on trial in the court of public opinion for seven years. His right to due process has been trampled. That is the part that I find so objectionable in this case. JMO

Well said.

Another thing on the so-called motive. I just don’t think Rebecca was anybody’s focus at that time. Not to hate, love or even care about. Every thought, prayer, anxiety, was toward Maxie.

Rebecca was a bit player in the background in everybody’s mind. She only mattered because she was there when that little boy was gravely injured. All eyes and hearts were on HIM...not RZ...not her needs and emotions.

The only attention she was getting was probative questions ...investigators called...NR wanting to talk to her.

For a woman who always cut and run before...she couldn’t cut and run from the investigation into Max’s death. Maybe she feared the kind of relentless scrutiny...did she push him, did she smother him,,.did she even try to give COR...did she stage the scene?

Maybe she would have been treated on some Internet board as Adam has been. *advertiser censored*, witchcraft, serial adulteress, thief. Every negative thing in her life laid out in public like has been done to Adam. Speculation and rumor and gossip added to prop up theories.

She was an unstable woman...by her own written words...feeling like she never had before. AS has no history as emotionally unstable as RZ. Of the two people in the house that night, all available evidence would be that he was the most emotionally stable of the two.