Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #4

[Gilgamesh]

To quote Atty Greer "murder's not even a question". That's why I can't take seriously these last minute attempts to keep the suicide narrative going in the thread. I do believe it is because Adam is the only contender for Rebecca's murder, with the personal rageful message painted - and the only other male family member having an alibi.

It's as clear as the light of day that the one who tried to push suicide to the front of everyone's minds that morning is responsible and now facing the lawsuit. Good representation would focus on getting the investigation reopened too, but he knows that would be hopeless. He's dodged a life sentence and it's outrageous.

That is why I believe the focus is being kept on Rebecca and I agree it is dirty. I actually think it is despicable.

All IMO.

“these last minute attempts to keep the suicide narrative going in the thread”.

Yes, there are a lot of last minute attempts to keep the suicide narrative going.

BASIC DEFENSE STRATEGY 101:

IF YOUR DEFENSE IS WEAK BLAME THE VICTIM

 

[screecher]

“these last minute attempts to keep the suicide narrative going in the thread”.

Yes, there are a lot of last minute attempts to keep the suicide narrative going.

BASIC DEFENSE STRATEGY 101:

IF YOUR DEFENSE IS WEAK BLAME THE VICTIM

This ^^^^^

 

[Gilgamesh]

BBM1: I am an unstable woman too if you look at my journals, diaries and streams of consciousness writing. This would be true of everyone. We all have a shadow. Journaling is a mental health TOOL to root out the junk in your unconsciousness so you can get clarity on things.

BBM2: We don't have any diaries or journals from Adam.

IMO it is not even vaguely reasonable to judge a person's mental stability by their private writings meant only for themselves.

If anything, Rebecca's writing shows that she actively worked on her own mental health.

Good point. Emotions wash through us like waves. If I’m feeling down, I tell myself that and if ‘m in a position to comfort others, I tell them that as well.

I don’t defend RZ as being perfect. I do applaud her for keeping a journal. That is very healthy. Examine your emotions, let them out and do what you have to do to sort them out so you can move on. It’s part of the wave of emotion.

If the feelings are of sadness, guess what people? Sadness is part of our good ole human experience.

 

[Harmony 2]

Thanks for your reply and for all your hard work moderating this forum! It's a tough job.

I don't think anyone here has an objection to someone bringing up information from the civil trial. We just want to make sure it's accurately sourced and not mixed in with rumor.

Thanks again and Happy Easter!

:spring:

The information comes from mainstream media reporters, from the San Diego Union-Tribune, who are reporting from the courtroom.Therefore, not rumor.

Timestamp 30:00 I linked the video to that particular portion.
Information from Nalepa deposition
https://youtu.be/PCkQKekgRQQ?t=30m1s

 

[MyBelle]

Masturbating to Asian bondage *advertiser censored* and Asian rape *advertiser censored* indicates a “stomach for cruelty and observing others pain” I’m my opinion.

You said
“She could have left her husband. As is often stated here, she had a good job and supportive family. But instead she went from man to man...running back to the Ex when she needed rescuing. His testimony that these rescues often required leaving the city they were living in.”

This is a misrepresentation of what the actual testimony was. If this is what you were saying that NN said this in deposition I would like to see proof, A LINK. you keep mentioning under the gavel podcast in reference to this subject. I have listened to this same podcast and they never said that NN testified that RZ went from “man to man” and ran back to NN “to be rescued”. In his deposition he said that there were some affairs but that they tried several times to work things out but it never seemed to work. In reality none of us knows how many affairs there were we only know about JS and the ex boyfriend that also had a depo. To twist words and turn them into a more dramatic tail is damaging to RZ reputation and damaging to the reputation of this site. I would like to see LINKS to prove these statements. Thanks in advance.

BBM. There have been reporters in the courtroom who watched the video depositions. There has been no need to twist words here because the jury heard the same thing the reporters heard. Perhaps some will share your opinion that having multiple affairs while married is not unusual. As a woman faithfully married to the same guy for 40 years, I disagree.

Shacknai defense calls final experts, rests case

The ex-husband, Neil Nalepa, testified in a videotaped deposition that Zahau had three affairs with other men during their marriage.
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-zahau-defense-20180327-story.html

 

[Kittybunny]

I had no stake in this outcome either way when I started following this case. And I have no problem believing that there were a number of factors and circumstances in Rebecca's life which could have combined to result in a suicide. Had she been found dead in her bed the next day with an empty bottle of pills, for example, and toxicology that proved it. Or even in a bathtub, wrists slit with door locked. Or any of one of other many many possibilities and ways that people commit suicide that are PHYSICALLY AND LOGICALLY PLAUSIBLE - which this totally was not, which is why for me, the suicide discussion is moot. I have concluded that the evidence, much of which was collected or not collected as to confirm a suicide theory rather than homicide (which should normally be the case in a suspicious death), shows she was murdered. Therefore, the psychological speculation about her state of mind is totally irrelevant. The scale is so far tipped towards murder for me, and I suspect, the jury. The question isn't "Could or would Rebecca have committed suicide?" - it's "Did Rebecca commit suicide in the manner that SDSO, and AS would have you believe?" No. No way, IMHO.

 

[MyBelle]

Let's say Rebecca was a "serial cheater", since when does that equal suicidal?

Cheating doesn't mean somebody is unstable, it means they want to experience another person. Literally millions and millions of people are "serial cheaters" including the sitting president.

The defense did absolutely nothing in this trial to show Rebecca was suicidal, or that she had ever been suicidal. Nor did they show that she ever exhibited any kind of bizarre behavior that even comes close to naked, bound and gagging herself.

I get the impression you think Rebecca felt rejected by Jonah and got so depressed about it that she killed herself. Is that it?

You also seem to imply Rebecca was fearing an investigation into Max's death. Why would she? She was not responsible for a freak accident. The autopsy that was eventually done on Max revealed why he went into cardiac arrest. So even if there were early suspicions they were resolved. Rebecca however knew the truth of that day. So why would she fear an investigation?

There was testimony RZ was sexually assaulted as a child. The Plaintiff did not deny this fact. It is RZ's entire history or emotional and physical relationships that was evaluated by this expert witness, not just one incident or one affair. It is also a fact that RZ's life ended very shortly after being contacted by a detective investigating Max's death.

http://www.kusi.com/suicide-expert-testifies-rebecca-zahau-faced-elevated-risk-of-suicide/
Dr. Alan Berman, a nationally renowned suicide expert, testified that Zahau’s history of child sexual abuse along with past physical and emotional abuse put her at higher risk of suicide.

 

[Lilibet]

BBM1: I am an unstable woman too if you look at my journals, diaries and streams of consciousness writing. This would be true of everyone. We all have a shadow. Journaling is a mental health TOOL to root out the junk in your unconsciousness so you can get clarity on things.

BBM2: We don't have any diaries or journals from Adam.

IMO it is not even vaguely reasonable to judge a person's mental stability by their private writings meant only for themselves.

If anything, Rebecca's writing shows that she actively worked on her own mental health.

BBM

To quote Bob Dylan...”If my thought dreams could be seen they’d probably put my head in a guillotine.”

I’ve journaled sporadically and my husband is a constant journaler. He’s told me that if I read them after he’s gone I’ll think he was crazy. It’s the same with mine. Despite the inner struggles we write about, we’ve been happily married for 51 years and led stable lives. I’d hate to have our words dissected publicly to “prove” anything about us.

Just because Rebecca’s writings were used in court doesn’t mean that it was right to do so or that they prove suicide or define her as a person IMO.

https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bobdylan/itsalrightmaimonlybleeding.html

Totally OT— This masterpiece also brought us the line “Money doesn’t talk it swears” among others and illustrates why Dylan won the Nobel prize for literature.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Alright,_Ma_(I'm_Only_Bleeding)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mYajHZ4QUVM

 

[MyBelle]

Good point. Emotions wash through us like waves. If I’m feeling down, I tell myself that and if ‘m in a position to comfort others, I tell them that as well.

I don’t defend RZ as being perfect. I do applaud her for keeping a journal. That is very healthy. Examine your emotions, let them out and do what you have to do to sort them out so you can move on. It’s part of the wave of emotion.

If the feelings are of sadness, guess what people? Sadness is part of our good ole human experience.

Yes, but it is the totality of that human experience that matters when determining suicide and the journal entries were recent. LE and the ME had access to these journal entries and interviewed the men with whom RZ had past relationships. They did not release these details to the public out of respect for RZ and her family. The public only learned of these details from this civil trial.

Dr. Wecht testified he did not access the LE investigative files before he made his conclusion of homicide. <modsnip>JMO

 

[MyBelle]

BBM

To quote Bob Dylan...&#8221;If my thought dreams could be seen they&#8217;d probably put my head in a guillotine.&#8221;

I&#8217;ve journaled sporadically and my husband is a constant journaler. He&#8217;s told me that if I read them after he&#8217;s gone I&#8217;ll think he was crazy. It&#8217;s the same with mine. Despite the inner struggles we write about, we&#8217;ve been happily married for 51 years and led stable lives. I&#8217;d hate to have our words dissected publicly to &#8220;prove&#8221; anything about us.

Just because Rebecca&#8217;s writings were used in court doesn&#8217;t mean that it was right to do so or that they prove suicide or define her as a person IMO.

https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bobdylan/itsalrightmaimonlybleeding.html

Totally OT&#8212; This masterpiece also brought us the line &#8220;Money doesn&#8217;t talk it swears&#8221; among others and illustrates why Dylan won the Nobel prize for literature.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Alright,_Ma_(I'm_Only_Bleeding)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mYajHZ4QUVM

AS has the right to defend himself against accusations of rape in murder in court especially after being tried in the court of public opinion for years, as were Dina and Nina. To that end, all his attorney--and their attorneys--did was access the same LE discovery that the Plaintiff had access to. The Plaintiff choose to have this private history become public and that is their choice. But it is unfair to blame AZ for defending himself from the salacious accusations of rape, torture and murder. JMO

 

[Lilibet]

AS has the right to defend himself against accusations of rape in murder in court especially after being tried in the court of public opinion for years, as were Dina and Nina. To that end, all his attorney--and their attorneys--did was access the same LE discovery that the Plaintiff had access to. The Plaintiff choose to have this private history become public and that is their choice. But it is unfair to blame AZ for defending himself from the salacious accusations of rape, torture and murder. JMO

Of course AS has the right to defend himself. I didn&#8217;t &#8220;blame&#8221; him. If his attorneys are desperate enough to twist a dead woman&#8217;s words to &#8220;prove&#8221; suicide, I guess they are doing their jobs...like Nurmi did to Travis Alexander on behalf of Jodi Arias. My main point is that these words don&#8217;t prove suicide or define Rebecca as a person who committed suicide. We&#8217;ll have to see what the jury thinks.

 

[justice be served]

Respectfully, I disagree. For so many years, many focused on Jonah's ex wife and sister (who did behave suspiciously) as the killers of Rebecca. JMO, many lost focus on many facts of the case that indicated the murderer was someone who was strong, taller than Rebecca and who had extensive experience in tying nautical knots and lashings.

I think part of that came from the early, unsubstantiated assertions that Adam had taken Ambien that night and slept through the whole thing. I never believed that and found it odd that the excuse was offered. I also found it significant that:

police zeroed in on Adam very early in the investigation

Adam was given a polygraph exam, one that lasted quite a long time

Adam was the last person to see RZ alive and the only person known to have access to the mansion

The cryptic message was painted higher than an average sized woman would have been able to paint it legibly

The odd remarks Adam made about his "bedside manner" and masturbating to *advertiser censored* before rescuing Rebecca

The 911 call which was filled with so many conflicting and suspicious statements

The scene and actions of Adam at the time he "discovered" RZ's body and attempted rescue

The urgency with which Paul Pfingst, retained by JS, got through to LE in order to convince Adam to refuse the poly exam

etc, etc.

The evidence and suspicious activity of Adam were there all along. The knots and lashings pinged my radar early on. There were many discussions here about the table with the broken leg, questioning how it could have handled the weight of both Adam and RZ as he cut her down. Many pages of discussion about the 911 call. But in order to accept Adam as the prime suspect, you had to reject the messaging that he had taken Ambien the night before and suspect something was up when he wasn't tested for presence of any drugs, alcohol, etc. in his system to verify his claim.

Perhaps the high profile and inflammatory actions of Jonah's ex wife after the murder were more of a distraction that put the focus on her. She did herself no favors in venting publicly her jealousy and misplaced anger towards Rebecca. I've always tried to keep an open mind on this case and will continue to do so. The new evidence and details revealed as a result of the WDS really point to Adam. There may have been others involved at some point, or at least had knowledge, but those may be dealt with at a future date.

Great post with perspective.

 

[minorone]

There was testimony RZ was sexually assaulted as a child. The Plaintiff did not deny this fact. It is RZ's entire history or emotional and physical relationships that was evaluated by this expert witness, not just one incident or one affair. It is also a fact that RZ's life ended very shortly after being contacted by a detective investigating Max's death.

http://www.kusi.com/suicide-expert-testifies-rebecca-zahau-faced-elevated-risk-of-suicide/
Dr. Alan Berman, a nationally renowned suicide expert, testified that Zahau&#8217;s history of child sexual abuse along with past physical and emotional abuse put her at higher risk of suicide.

According to the testimony:
Defense attorney David Elsberg asked Berman about reports that Zahau had been fondled by her school principal when she was young, and why that might put her at risk for suicide. &#8220;Sexual abuse can be devastating to the abused,&#8221; Berman answered. &#8220;It produces a sense of shame, as if they are to blame;....."

To form this opinion, Dr. Berman reviewed a range of documents including law enforcement reports, the Medical Examiner's reports, and depositions in this case. He never met Rebecca & his opinion is too limited in scope to make that generalization about Rebecca. His opinion is based on reports of people he has not personally inteviewed.

It is not a realistic way to assess and discuss someone's mental state. How can anyone give an in-depth character analysis on psychological or mental health grounds without knowing or examining the person at all?"

 

[Gilgamesh]

I had no stake in this outcome either way when I started following this case. And I have no problem believing that there were a number of factors and circumstances in Rebecca's life which could have combined to result in a suicide. Had she been found dead in her bed the next day with an empty bottle of pills, for example, and toxicology that proved it. Or even in a bathtub, wrists slit with door locked. Or any of one of other many many possibilities and ways that people commit suicide that are PHYSICALLY AND LOGICALLY PLAUSIBLE - which this totally was not, which is why for me, the suicide discussion is moot. I have concluded that the evidence, much of which was collected or not collected as to confirm a suicide theory rather than homicide (which should normally be the case in a suspicious death), shows she was murdered. Therefore, the psychological speculation about her state of mind is totally irrelevant. The scale is so far tipped towards murder for me, and I suspect, the jury. The question isn't "Could or would Rebecca have committed suicide?" - it's "Did Rebecca commit suicide in the manner that SDSO, and AS would have you believe?" No. No way, IMHO.

BEAUTIFULLY STATED. SUMS IT UP. Imo

 

[MyBelle]

According to the testimony:
Defense attorney David Elsberg asked Berman about reports that Zahau had been fondled by her school principal when she was young, and why that might put her at risk for suicide. &#8220;Sexual abuse can be devastating to the abused,&#8221; Berman answered. &#8220;It produces a sense of shame, as if they are to blame;....."

To form this opinion, Dr. Berman reviewed a range of documents including law enforcement reports, the Medical Examiner's reports, and depositions in this case. He never met Rebecca & his opinion is too limited in scope to make that generalization about Rebecca. His opinion is based on reports of people he has not personally inteviewed.

It is not a realistic way to assess and discuss someone's mental state. How can anyone give an in-depth character analysis on psychological or mental health grounds without knowing or examining the person at all?"

ME's use the same investigative methods after a suicide and they don't have the luxury of interviewing a "live" person. This case is no different and it reflects the same standard of practices. The ME and other experts didn't meet her and neither has the jury. That is the reason a jury is allowed to rely on expert opinions. JMO

 

[Lilibet]

I had no stake in this outcome either way when I started following this case. And I have no problem believing that there were a number of factors and circumstances in Rebecca's life which could have combined to result in a suicide. Had she been found dead in her bed the next day with an empty bottle of pills, for example, and toxicology that proved it. Or even in a bathtub, wrists slit with door locked. Or any of one of other many many possibilities and ways that people commit suicide that are PHYSICALLY AND LOGICALLY PLAUSIBLE - which this totally was not, which is why for me, the suicide discussion is moot. I have concluded that the evidence, much of which was collected or not collected as to confirm a suicide theory rather than homicide (which should normally be the case in a suspicious death), shows she was murdered. Therefore, the psychological speculation about her state of mind is totally irrelevant. The scale is so far tipped towards murder for me, and I suspect, the jury. The question isn't "Could or would Rebecca have committed suicide?" - it's "Did Rebecca commit suicide in the manner that SDSO, and AS would have you believe?" No. No way, IMHO.

BBM

I agree with your entire post. If Rebecca wanted to end her life there were so many ways to commit suicide available to her that to go to this much trouble in a short span of time and paint a cryptic note high on a door just defies logic IMO. I have never understood how SDSO reached their conclusion of suicide. But I never understood how they concluded that the McStay family had walked into Mexico when there was evidence of murder in their house if SDSO had looked more closely and not run with what seemed obvious.

And I still would like to know at what point and why SDSO switched from their original suspicion of murder to the impossibly complicated suicide scenario.

 

[minorone]

ME's use the same investigative methods after a suicide and they don't have the luxury of interviewing a "live" person. This case is no different and it reflects the same standard of practices. The ME and other experts didn't meet her and neither has the jury. That is the reason a jury is allowed to rely on expert opinions. JMO

The APA which sets the standards considers armchair psychiatry to be unprofessional & unethical

"call for an end to psychiatrists providing professional opinions in the media about public figures whom they have not examined, whether it be on cable news appearances, books, or in social media. Armchair psychiatry or the use of psychiatry as a political tool is the misuse of psychiatry and is unacceptable and unethical."

https://www.psychiatry.org/newsroom/news-releases/apa-calls-for-end-to-armchair-psychiatry

Evidence was given by someone who met her and talked to her and does not agree with that assessment. I just need to go to the testimony.

ETA: The counselor, Karen Hancock, is a member of the county&#8217;s Psychiatry Emergency Reponse Team, and was on a ride-along that day. She was not working in that capacity when they went to the Spreckles mansion, she testified.

 

[Lilibet]

ME's use the same investigative methods after a suicide and they don't have the luxury of interviewing a "live" person. This case is no different and it reflects the same standard of practices. The ME and other experts didn't meet her and neither has the jury. That is the reason a jury is allowed to rely on expert opinions. JMO

The ME &#8220;met&#8221; Rebecca&#8217;s body. And in this case, the ME avoided testifying and the jury has to rely on the &#8220;expert&#8221; opinion of someone who simply read the autopsy report.

Having followed trials like Jodi Arias&#8217; I&#8217;m somewhat leery of &#8220;expert&#8221; opinions of psychologists analyzing a dead person (Travis Alexander). In Rebecca&#8217;s case, the expert only addressed the likelihood of suicide, but could not comment on the elaborate method Rebecca allegedly chose. That method is what screams murder, which is why LE initially said it seemed to be murder.

 

[Jessica2012]

My problem with the uncollected, untested underwear is that it was found at all. It is a guest house, not barn. It's very purpose is to provide shelter and comfort to guests. No host would allow trash left by a previous guest remain in the trashcan for a next guest. Such an oversight would be insulting and offensive, not to mention nasty, in any setting, but it is especially incongruous in this one. I don't believe Jonah here. Had his daughter discarded underwear there, she would have had the manners to take out the trash herself, before she left town. IMO

The underwear was not uncollected. In Ann Rule’s Two Strange Deaths in Coronado, page 224:

The evidence text worked steadily, saving and marking anything that might prove to be of evidentiary value: tissue with red stains from a child’s bedroom, a candle from the grass north of where Becky had lain, a bottle of water from the north master bedroom of the guesthouse where Adam spent the previous night, two red plastic cups from the same room, and curiously, a pair of women’s panties that were pink, purple, and while, found in a wastebasket there.

Jonah’s teenage daughter had a sleepover in the guest house sometime shortly before Adam arrived. No one was expected to stay there that week, AFAIK. Max’s accident was not a planned event. Adam coming was not a planned event. Should Rebecca have stopped everything she was doing on Tuesday to clean a room no one was even going to stay in (Adam was in the other room)? Should Jonah have thought to call a maid while he was worrying over his horribly injured son at Radys?

The panties may have been one of the other girls that spent the night. They may have not been “nasty”, but just a hole in them. Jonah’s daughter may have not even know they were there.

The police know who’s they were and they were not Rebeccas. That’s really all that is important. IMO

 

[Jessica2012]

Well said.

Another thing on the so-called motive. I just don’t think Rebecca was anybody’s focus at that time. Not to hate, love or even care about. Every thought, prayer, anxiety, was toward Maxie.

Rebecca was a bit player in the background in everybody’s mind. She only mattered because she was there when that little boy was gravely injured. All eyes and hearts were on HIM...not RZ...not her needs and emotions.

The only attention she was getting was probative questions ...investigators called...NR wanting to talk to her.

For a woman who always cut and run before...she couldn’t cut and run from the investigation into Max’s death. Maybe she feared the kind of relentless scrutiny...did she push him, did she smother him,,.did she even try to give COR...did she stage the scene?

Maybe she would have been treated on some Internet board as Adam has been. *advertiser censored*, witchcraft, serial adulteress, thief. Every negative thing in her life laid out in public like has been done to Adam. Speculation and rumor and gossip added to prop up theories.

She was an unstable woman...by her own written words...feeling like she never had before. AS has no history as emotionally unstable as RZ. Of the two people in the house that night, all available evidence would be that he was the most emotionally stable of the two.

:goodpost: