Related Issues and Food for Thought

[swedie]

I do believe it has been said previously by certain people that they (accused) should not have a right to silence in the matter of murder etc . DM or MS should just speak to LE and tell the truth so that this whole thing can be over.

Now it's the opposite ?



So even if MS or DM had of told the facts of any innocence to LE they would have got nowhere ! This is exactly what several people have been saying, from what I have read. This is why people do have the right to remain silent, so that it cannot be used against them.

:thinking: :fainted:

No one has said the accused should not have the right to remain silent. Some have suggested that if the accused had not done anything wrong, why refuse to talk to LE? Many pros and cons have been discussed at full numerous times. Hope we don't go there again but that's JMHO. :giggle:

 

[Juballee]

Back up Tamarind. Reread my previous posts if that helps. You're taking something out of context and seem confused. Maybe I can help to clarify your confusion here and now if that would help. I have (we have) been speaking about MS's breach, not about when he was first arrested. (When he could have and may have or might have decided to use his right to remain silent. It's called interrogation. ) OK so back on track...

MS had already spent almost a year in jail when he was informed he was charged with LB's murder. IF he had no idea LB was murdered, but all of a sudden he's being charged with her murder, that certain would come as a shock to him and may cause him distress, distress enough to breach court order by trying to contact his girlfriend. It was way too late at this point to tell anything to LE. HTH, comprendre? MOO.

I'm sorry, but to me there is no excuse to breach a court order not to contact people unless you need to set up and alibi or otherwise coordinate false testimony that would not otherwise match up. It doesn't matter how shocked or distressed MS was at finding out he was facing another murder charge, it was against the law for him to try to contact his GF. Even if he is upset, it would be up to his lawyer track down his alibis by confirming MS's story, not up to MS to go around the system and try to corrupt it. It really only does make him look more like the type to not give a crap about breaking the law, even when he knows that he is under constant surveillance. DM might not have known his mail was being read, but MS had enough previous experience to know, it seems. Even though DM didn't know his mail was being monitored, he still followed the rules, interesting.

All of this is my opinion only.

 

[Tamarind]

<rs&bbm>

I don't think it's obvious at all. All we know is that is DM told SL he did not give Laura drugs. I don't think that equates to it being obvious he didn't provide them.

Why would one believe DM on this issue but choose not to believe others who have stated that DM supplied LB with drugs?

I don't believe it would have mattered if DM had told SL that he had set her up with drugs. Had DM pointed her in the direction of someone who could sell her drugs or even if he had some spare in his pocket, it would not have mattered.

What did DM have to lose at that time? He was being asked if he had seen LB not if he was a drug user/dealer. Had he said yes he gave her drugs or no he didnt, how would it have changed anything? IMO he had nothing to lose or gain by either statement. Maybe by overlooking these points, conclusions that are of no relevance are formed ?. JMO

 

[Tamarind]

Back up Tamarind. Reread my previous posts if that helps. You're taking something out of context and seem confused. Maybe I can help to clarify your confusion here and now if that would help. I have (we have) been speaking about MS's breach, not about when he was first arrested. (When he could have and may have or might have decided to use his right to remain silent. It's called interrogation. ) OK so back on track...

I have already read most of your previous posts, thank you. I am not confused either, I can see through most things and this is no exception. Interrogations only happen with consent.. You cant interrogate anyone who refuses to comply. If someone does not want to co-operate by way of exercising their rights that is fine by me. I am still on track, thank you.

MS had already spent almost a year in jail when he was informed he was charged with LB's murder. IF he had no idea LB was murdered, but all of a sudden he's being charged with her murder, that certain would come as a shock to him and may cause him distress, distress enough to breach court order by trying to contact his girlfriend. It was way too late at this point to tell anything to LE. HTH, comprendre? MOO.

Do we know she was murdered for sure? I mean without a body it's quite the conundrum IMO. Not every disappearance is a murder. It's easy to attach blame to someone who was one of the last people to have spoken to her and who knew her, especially when that person is being accused of another murder. It doesn't make it a definite IMO. I actually find the way this is being linked quite extraordinary. But MS didnt need to contact his GF to find out anything particular, like the LB situation. He could have called anyone to ask for information.

It leaves it in the air in that he could have been searching for information or for an alibi.

 

[Tamarind]

Because, you know, there are legitimate places to go http://www.yelp.ca/biz/roach-o-rama-toronto-2?osq=cannabis+cafés

LB was using harder drugs than that.

I am aware that there are hard drugs ( I don't consider marijuana a drug). I am aware that LB quite possibly was using them. My reference to the person being asked for marijuana on the street was to point out that if someone wants anything illegal or otherwise they will often ask anyone for it.

Well what I gather is that these are party people. It's not that DM is a dealer but that he has a party, playboy lifestyle. Maybe he just didn't want to foot the bill for her.

And why should he? Funding someones drug habit is a bottomless pit. IMO. I don't necessarily get the idea that DM was a party person. I get the impression he provided things that he thought his friends would like. I think the only mistake DM made was trusting that he had friends in the first place and not spongers and users. You often see flies around a picnic table ! Flies that generate maggots. JMO MOO.

 

[Coldpizza]

Leave the snark at the door please.

Thanks

 

[swedie]

I have already read most of your previous posts, thank you. I am not confused either, I can see through most things and this is no exception. Interrogations only happen with consent.. You cant interrogate anyone who refuses to comply. If someone does not want to co-operate by way of exercising their rights that is fine by me. I am still on track, thank you.



Do we know she was murdered for sure? I mean without a body it's quite the conundrum IMO. Not every disappearance is a murder. It's easy to attach blame to someone who was one of the last people to have spoken to her and who knew her, especially when that person is being accused of another murder. It doesn't make it a definite IMO. I actually find the way this is being linked quite extraordinary. But MS didnt need to contact his GF to find out anything particular, like the LB situation. He could have called anyone to ask for information.

It leaves it in the air in that he could have been searching for information or for an alibi.

As much as I wish LB hadn't been murdered, LE have strong leads/evidence to prove she was. For them to provide a specific date on which she was murdered, there has to be explicit evidence. Guess we will have to wait for trial to find out what evidence the Crown has and how they came to their conclusion. MOO.

When she was first reported missing that July and investigators told about the drugs and Babcock’s spiral downwards, friends and family say police wrote the young woman off and overlooked obvious connections to Millard long before he would allegedly go on to murder two others.

This April, after she had been gone without a word for nearly two years, police finally had news. Babcock was dead, detectives said, and had been all along.
Police refuse to tell her family if they’ve found her body or her remains. The OPP is keeping those details secret ahead of the trial likely years away.

According to court documents, police now believe Babcock was killed on or around July 3.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...ck_leaves_lingering_questions_for_police.html

 

[swedie]

I'm sorry, but to me there is no excuse to breach a court order not to contact people unless you need to set up and alibi or otherwise coordinate false testimony that would not otherwise match up. It doesn't matter how shocked or distressed MS was at finding out he was facing another murder charge, it was against the law for him to try to contact his GF. Even if he is upset, it would be up to his lawyer track down his alibis by confirming MS's story, not up to MS to go around the system and try to corrupt it. It really only does make him look more like the type to not give a crap about breaking the law, even when he knows that he is under constant surveillance. DM might not have known his mail was being read, but MS had enough previous experience to know, it seems. Even though DM didn't know his mail was being monitored, he still followed the rules, interesting.

All of this is my opinion only.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse period. Whether either one of them knew or not. But why is it assumed MS should have known better but DM gets a get out of jail free card on this? Do you know if MS has ever gone to jail or prison on any of his petty charges? Both would have been read the riot act wouldn't you think? IIRC during one of their first court appearances they were given instructions regarding their no contacts. MOO.

 

[Sillybilly]

I don't believe it would have mattered if DM had told SL that he had set her up with drugs. Had DM pointed her in the direction of someone who could sell her drugs or even if he had some spare in his pocket, it would not have mattered.

What did DM have to lose at that time? He was being asked if he had seen LB not if he was a drug user/dealer. Had he said yes he gave her drugs or no he didnt, how would it have changed anything? IMO he had nothing to lose or gain by either statement. Maybe by overlooking these points, conclusions that are of no relevance are formed ?. JMO

Sorry, I was actually addressing your statement that "DM obviously was not able to provide ..." when IMO, it is not obvious.

I believe however that it did matter to DM that SL believe DM did not have contact with Laura around the time of her disappearance (otherwise, why lie about having any phone contact but admit when confronted with the phone bill?). And yes, it would matter if he admitted to providing LB with drugs because (when added to having had had phone contact), it could then confirm that he was in physical contact with LB at the time of her disappearance.

 

[SnooperDuper]

<rsbm> True, MS would probably have to contact his gf, not the other way around.

In my opinion, the fact that one has been a criminal for years versus the fact that one has never been charged with a crime previously makes a difference in the probability of one being more likely to be guilty than the other, or to at least be the instigator. It's not just me, it's only human to look for patterns, and to expect more trouble from previous trouble makers. Police keep people's criminal records on file instead of shredding them because to LE it is way more probable that crimes are committed by repeat offenders than by law abiding citizens who have never been convicted of a crime.

And in my personal opinion, selling cocaine and DUI are things that have the potential to kill people, that is one of the reasons to why they are illegal. Perhaps if one does not know anyone who has ever died from a drinking and driving related accident, or anyone who has ever died from a drug overdose, than those would be minor, petty crimes, but to many who have suffered from the related effects of those two crimes, they are serious, not small time.

All of this is my opinion only.

Nothing MS ever did would get him any jail time.

Global News has learned that Smich, 25, has a long history with the justice system.

He was convicted of drug possession in 2005 and 2006, for failing to comply twice in 2006 and impaired driving in 2009.

He is also facing a charge of mischief for allegedly spray-painting a highway overpass.

http://globalnews.ca/news/585372/who-is-mark-smich/

Smich has three breaches on his record now and proved himself uncooperative in court:

When asked to tell the court his name, he said merely “Mark.” After prompting to provide his full name, he dismissively added “Smich.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...-in-tim-bosma-murder-case-to-plead-not-guilty

Mr. Smich’s rap sheet includes possession of cocaine and magic mushrooms, failure to appear in court, breach of a mandated curfew and driving while impaired. In the fall of 2012, he and another man were chased by police after allegedly spray-painting a highway overpass, authorities said at the time.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rge-in-mysterious-bosma-case/article12757899/

His criminal record goes back to when he was 18, including two convictions from drug possession charges, two fail to comply convictions and one conviction for impaired driving.

He was also charged with mischief under $5,000 for spray-painting an Oakville overpass in October 2012. Those charges have not yet been resolved.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...cond_suspect_mark_smich_appears_in_court.html

Court records show that Smich has several criminal convictions, including possession for the purpose of trafficking in 2006 and impaired driving in 2010. He was also scheduled to appear in court on a charge of mischief next month.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/2nd-suspect-named-in-tim-bosma-slaying-1.1329948

 

[SnooperDuper]

I am aware that there are hard drugs ( I don't consider marijuana a drug). I am aware that LB quite possibly was using them. My reference to the person being asked for marijuana on the street was to point out that if someone wants anything illegal or otherwise they will often ask anyone for it.

There is a huge difference between asking a stranger for a quasi-legal substance that some people don't even consider a drug, and asking around for cocaine.

And why should he? Funding someones drug habit is a bottomless pit. IMO. I don't necessarily get the idea that DM was a party person. I get the impression he provided things that he thought his friends would like. I think the only mistake DM made was trusting that he had friends in the first place and not spongers and users. You often see flies around a picnic table ! Flies that generate maggots. JMO MOO.

It is interesting LB was not hassling MS for drugs - isn't he the guy with the connection? Ah, but DM is the guy who has the money, an some drugs are very expensive and moreish, and funding someone's drug habit is a bottomless pit. To LB, DM was the right person to hit up because he had access and money.

 

[Juballee]

<rsbm> True, MS would probably have to contact his gf, not the other way around.

Nothing MS ever did would get him any jail time.

http://globalnews.ca/news/585372/who-is-mark-smich/

Smich has three breaches on his record now and proved himself uncooperative in court:

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...-in-tim-bosma-murder-case-to-plead-not-guilty

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rge-in-mysterious-bosma-case/article12757899/

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...cond_suspect_mark_smich_appears_in_court.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/2nd-suspect-named-in-tim-bosma-slaying-1.1329948

I'm surprised that MS had never been in jail before, I could have sworn that I have read somewhere that this was not his first time behind bars. Perhaps it was just while awaiting a different trial or the breach or failure to appear?

 

[SnooperDuper]

I'm surprised that MS had never been in jail before, I could have sworn that I have read somewhere that this was not his first time behind bars. Perhaps it was just while awaiting a different trial or the breach or failure to appear?

You're probably right: the lawyer sites I was on the other day said 30 days for a breach was typical. I think I have read a lot about his record but nothing specifically saying he had done jail time.

 

[Tamarind]

Sorry, I was actually addressing your statement that "DM obviously was not able to provide ..." when IMO, it is not obvious.

If he had provided her with drugs he would have had nothing to lose by telling SL was what I was saying. The obviously comes from the fact that SL did not relay anything to suggest she was given anything to support her habit. JMO

I believe however that it did matter to DM that SL believe DM did not have contact with Laura around the time of her disappearance (otherwise, why lie about having any phone contact but admit when confronted with the phone bill?).

I don't believe DM did lie. I believe he was saying that he didnt speak to her on numerous calls. It would appear that the 1 minute calls could well have been unanswered calls, so DM was telling the truth IMO. From those phone bills I do not recall any lengthy call taking place. I seem to remember one call lasting a few minutes which I am presuming was the call where she asked for drugs. The short duration of that call tells me that the request for drugs was all it was about. JMO. Having someone call for drugs is not contact as in hanging out or having a full blown heart to heart conversation IMO. It is more like calling to order a pizza in my opinion.

And yes, it would matter if he admitted to providing LB with drugs because (when added to having had had phone contact), it could then confirm that he was in physical contact with LB at the time of her disappearance.

But he didn't say he gave her anything so I guess that's what we have to go by, in my opinion.

 

[Tamarind]

There is a huge difference between asking a stranger for a quasi-legal substance that some people don't even consider a drug, and asking around for cocaine.

I don't think so. Many people still believe marijuana to be a drug and many would be calling cops about being approached. IMO. Where does it say that LB was asking for cocaine? I haven't read anywhere that it was cocaine she wanted, I just saw the word drugs!

It is interesting LB was not hassling MS for drugs - isn't he the guy with the connection? Ah, but DM is the guy who has the money, an some drugs are very expensive and moreish, and funding someone's drug habit is a bottomless pit. To LB, DM was the right person to hit up because he had access and money.

Well apparently not, he didn't seem to follow up on her request. Just because someone has money doesn't mean they are willing to watch it disappear in smoke or up a snout. IMO.
Maybe MS had changed his phone number. Don't drug dealers change phone numbers often? That's what I have heard. Maybe she didn't have his new one?

 

[Tamarind]

As much as I wish LB hadn't been murdered, LE have strong leads/evidence to prove she was. For them to provide a specific date on which she was murdered, there has to be explicit evidence. Guess we will have to wait for trial to find out what evidence the Crown has and how they came to their conclusion. MOO.

When she was first reported missing that July and investigators told about the drugs and Babcock&#8217;s spiral downwards, friends and family say police wrote the young woman off and overlooked obvious connections to Millard long before he would allegedly go on to murder two others.

This April, after she had been gone without a word for nearly two years, police finally had news. Babcock was dead, detectives said, and had been all along.
Police refuse to tell her family if they&#8217;ve found her body or her remains. The OPP is keeping those details secret ahead of the trial likely years away.

According to court documents, police now believe Babcock was killed on or around July 3.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...ck_leaves_lingering_questions_for_police.html

So they just believe her to be dead. They don't know is what I read from that. MOO

 

[matou]

Who made the arrangements to meet up between DM and Shawn Lerner? If it was DM, why did he leave so soon after meeting? He was the one who wanted to talk face to face. The meeting happened on Friday, July 27th in the afternoon and Shawn was only a few minutes late getting there. The conversation was less than 5 minutes long. What was his reason for leaving so soon? He likely didn't give a reason. He likely had to rush to get his story together and get rid of any loose ends that Lerner could link to him. I can't believe he got away that day. Then he killed again and again. Sick. JMO

 

[Tamarind]

Who made the arrangements to meet up between DM and Shawn Lerner? If it was DM, why did he leave so soon after meeting? He was the one who wanted to talk face to face. The meeting happened on Friday, July 27th in the afternoon and Shawn was only a few minutes late getting there. The conversation was less than 5 minutes long. What was his reason for leaving so soon? He likely didn't give a reason. He likely had to rush to get his story together and get rid of any loose ends that Lerner could link to him. I can't believe he got away that day. Then he killed again and again. Sick. JMO

I think I read that SL sent texts to DM. I also recall that DM thought that whatever was sent in text didn't seem to make much sense so he asked if SL wanted to meet for a coffee. He said for a coffee not lunch, so I am thinking he didnt plan on staying long. Also I get the feeling that SL isn't a fan of DM, I think when some friend told him that DM and LB were fooling around ( unproven), he wasn't impressed, there doesn't appear to me to be any liking of DM by SL and I think the reason could be that he had been told about the alleged fooling around. We don't know how late SL really was, some people often have poor concept of time. Maybe DM agreed to meet up because he didnt understand the texts too well, maybe SL was vague. So DM shows up and is asked questions about phone calls and he doesn't recall any real conversation with LB recently. SL then shows him a phone bill and DM says he didnt speak to her any more than once and she was asking for drugs and a place to stay. Maybe SL thought DM was in this alleged relationship with LB and that DM was holding out on him, even though SL was only going on what a friend had said. Maybe DM didn't like an accusatory tone and once he had answered SL's questions felt that he didnt have much else to say. I have a feeling they were never buddies.

I am still trying to see what is right in front of our faces as DM says. There is so much that could be relevant... so it's a matter of staying focused and not being confused by anything that doesn't make sense to me. JMO HTH

 

[swedie]

So they just believe her to be dead. They don't know is what I read from that. MOO

Oh no, LE know LB is dead. They just won't and cannot release any details other than she likely met the same fate as TB. They are holding the evidence close to their chests to preserve it for trial (as it states in the article I posted above). If one removes all the believes, alleges, you get the truth. Again journalists have to use those words because the perps have not had their fair trial yet. As hard as it is to accept the truth, eventually it's going to have to happen. The truths are right under our noses.

How horrific for her parents and loved ones not to receive any of her remains because DM reduced her to ashes and likely disposed of them somewhere where LE have not been able to find them. I wonder if once DM is convicted and knows his goose is cooked, if he will give LB's parents a tiny bit of sympathy and reveal where he dumped or buried what was left of LB. Could you only imagine if this happened to someone you loved dearly, not being able to have that wee bit of closure? Her parents held out hope for so long but certainly the reality has set in now and they know their beautiful, bubbly, sweetheart, daughter will not be coming home to them ever again. May she rest in eternal peace and may the evil, twisted, murderer who did this to her and her loved ones, rot in eternal he!! MOO.

Clairmont: Police believe body of accused Bosma killer's girlfriend was incinerated

Homicide detectives believe Dellen Millard bought a gun illegally and used it to murder his father. And that he also murdered Laura Babcock and incinerated her body &#8212; just as he allegedly did with Tim Bosma.

Police have said they believe Bosma was killed the night he was abducted and his body burned in an animal incinerator at a farm owned by Millard in Ayr, near Kitchener.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...ed-bosma-killer-s-girlfriend-was-incinerated/

Thinking deeper into what DM was referring to in the bold and underlined part, he must be referring to the fact he is a psychopath and no one has titled him as such in any newspaper articles. MOO.

I&#8217;m relying on the advice of my lawyer, and several other lawyers too, all agree, stay quiet. CBS wants to do a lengthy interview. Right now, I feel like doing it. And not just sticking to my personal background; I feel like getting right into the case, and picking it all apart. For heaven&#8217;s sake, it&#8217;s right in front of everyone&#8217;s faces, and no one seems to be able to figure it all out!? This silence is very frustrating.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...rn-to-world-of-fast-cars-and-exotic-adventure

 

[swedie]

I think I read that SL sent texts to DM. I also recall that DM thought that whatever was sent in text didn't seem to make much sense so he asked if SL wanted to meet for a coffee. He said for a coffee not lunch, so I am thinking he didnt plan on staying long. Also I get the feeling that SL isn't a fan of DM, I think when some friend told him that DM and LB were fooling around ( unproven), he wasn't impressed, there doesn't appear to me to be any liking of DM by SL and I think the reason could be that he had been told about the alleged fooling around. We don't know how late SL really was, some people often have poor concept of time. Maybe DM agreed to meet up because he didnt understand the texts too well, maybe SL was vague. So DM shows up and is asked questions about phone calls and he doesn't recall any real conversation with LB recently. SL then shows him a phone bill and DM says he didnt speak to her any more than once and she was asking for drugs and a place to stay. Maybe SL thought DM was in this alleged relationship with LB and that DM was holding out on him, even though SL was only going on what a friend had said. Maybe DM didn't like an accusatory tone and once he had answered SL's questions felt that he didnt have much else to say. I have a feeling they were never buddies.

I am still trying to see what is right in front of our faces as DM says. There is so much that could be relevant... so it's a matter of staying focused and not being confused by anything that doesn't make sense to me. JMO HTH

Nothing confusing here. HTH and MOO.

Despite being only an acquaintance of the man, Mr. Lerner contacted Mr. Millard to inquire about the string of phone calls. He says Mr. Millard refused to discuss the matter over text messages, so the two met for coffee.

&#8220;First he denied it, he said &#8216;There couldn&#8217;t have been eight calls,&#8217;&#8221; Mr. Lerner said. &#8220;But I had the records in my bag.&#8221;

After seeing the records, Mr. Millard told him &#8220;she was calling looking for drugs and a place to stay.&#8221; He told Mr. Lerner that he did not oblige either request.

&#8220;When we saw the phone records, that&#8217;s when I got suspicious, I suppose,&#8221; he said.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...spect-dellen-millard-before-her-disappearance