Related Issues and Food for Thought

[Kamille]

Too funny. So you not only paraphrased, you completely changed it and took it out of context, and then put it in "quotes".

The real comment was in response to the thought that smuggling a puppy was far worse than smuggling alcohol or tobacco because of the health risk to others.

So this...



Led to this...



Which then somehow morphed into this...



JMO

I believe it was my original comment that was taken way out of context. I thought I implied that smuggling a wild stray animal of unknown age, origin and health status over 2 borders was worse in terms of a public health risk than trying to get away with an EXTRA bottle of alcohol or a carton of cigarettes. I guess I should have specified that I was referring to one of each, for personal use, undeclared above the allowed maximum, instead of a trailer full of alcohol and cigarettes of unknown manufacture, destined to be sold on the black market to underage consumers.

Some of the risks to our environment, health and food supply are caused by people either inadvertently or deliberately bringing in undeclared live plants or animals and/or their byproducts.

In this case, the decision to smuggle the dog, undeclared, without proper documentation, was deliberate.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

DP may not have wanted the case anymore once the direct indictment came through:



ETA the link! http://www.ourwindsor.ca/news-story/4869422-bosma-murder-trial-expected-for-fall-2015/

I'm starting to wonder if it was a falling out between RP and DP that caused the in camera session and RP eventually being retained.

DP seems to be a very busy man with a lot of different things on the go. Seems to me as though RP was doing all the work while DP was taking all the glory. Did DP even have a chance to go over all of the discovery before the direct indictment came down? Did he file any motions on behalf of his "client" or was that all RP as well. Since DP was the lawyer on record for the lower court, does this mean that RP could have pulled out when the direct indictment came through? Was he tired of doing all the work himself?

If RP had pulled out and DP had been retained as the lawyer on record at that time, would he have been prepared to go it alone moving forward?

Just pondering.

MOO

 

[swedie]

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5688757-tim-bosma-accused-killer-dellen-millard-gets-a-new-lawyer/

So DM gave DP the boot? Maybe DP wanted a handsome lump sum and got it in May 2013? IIRC DP seemed pretty eager to help DM sign properties over to MB days after DM's arrest. Did DP skim too much cream off the top? Has DP agreed to stay on until recently to earn already paid fees or perhaps he may have to do a bit of refunding? As SC said in this article DP was uncharacteristically short in the interview. DP's not too happy with the situation? MOO.

The flashy and effusive criminal lawyer who planned to defend accused serial killer Dellen Millard at trial has been replaced.

Deepak Paradkar has been involved with Millard's case since the wealthy aviation heir was arrested two years ago for the first-degree murder of Tim Bosma. Yet he will not be Millard's trial lawyer. Instead Ravin Pillay, who has been part of Millard's defence team, although not its frontman, will represent him when the case goes to trial next January.

"Ravin's been on the case from Day 1," was all Paradkar, who lives in Mississauga, would say in an uncharacteristically short interview about the switch.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5688757-tim-bosma-accused-killer-dellen-millard-gets-a-new-lawyer/

 

[SnooperDuper]

The first references to RP wrt DM that I could find appeared July 15, 2014 and you are right, Swedie, it had to do with the direct indictment

CHCH News has confirmed that the men accused of murdering Tim Bosma will be going straight to trial — meaning there will be no preliminary trial. The preliminary trial was set to begin in early September. So far no date for the full trial has been set.

Ravin Pillay is a member of Dellen Millard’s legal team and he confirmed the move tonight.

http://www.chch.com/bosma-case-going-straight-trial/

 

[swedie]

Does the trailer DM took across two borders to Mexico have venting? Just wondering because that puppy looked like he was in there (in the Jeep that was in the trailer) and then DM went in there to take him out after they got into the US. It would have been pretty hot in there. Poor pup. JMO

Maybe it really wasn't about caring for, loving and owning the pup, but more about DM seeing what he could get away with? Poor pup locked in a black, hot, trailer, in the scorching desert. Terribly, terribly, cruel. MOO.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I don't believe I called DP a "liar". I stated that DD's version of events was different and that he was pretty adamant about his position. DP called DD a liar basically. And claimed he was filing a complaint against him. If anyone lied in all this it was likely DM IMO but unless DP files that complaint, which I doubt he has or will, I guess we'll never know.

The rest was in regards to how easy it was for the media to contact DP but not DD or a representative from his firm. How do you know no one else has a problem getting in touch with DP? It was just one media outlet who said they didn't.

I also didn't "put down" DP. I posted some facts about his "business", his desire to cater to the media and his unprofessional website full of errors including the typo of the name of the street the office is supposedly on. I was, however, mistaken about the phone numbers not being available online at the time of the incident. He still has the same 2 numbers that he used at both of his home addresses in Thornhill and has now put them on his new "Peel Defence Lawyer" website. Even though one is likely a cell phone and the other is a fax machine, likely in his Thornhill home. I guess he has no staff to answer his phone since it's probably always on his person. Maybe he was using the restroom when DD or his representative called?

Anyway, if those facts about DP's business practices paint him in a negative light, so be it. Personally I think the best decision DM has made thus far in this case was not to retain DP. IF it was his decision at all.

MOO

Sorry, I should have included this quote as well in my interpretation of your opinion.

There is nothing other than DP's accusation to support this claim. According to Dirk Derstine, Dellen Millard requested the meeting. I don't suppose DP has or will get anywhere with his blustering about filing a formal complaint against SG or DD or the Derstine firm. That law firm is above board and well respected. Deepak Paradkar with no office, claims to be living and practicing in both Thornhill and Mississauga on the Internet, lawyer to the gangstas, no known staff to speak of? Not so much.

I guess if it matters whether it's a cell phone or land line or fax machine, you could always call it to find out.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

I believe it was my original comment that was taken way out of context. I thought I implied that smuggling a wild stray animal of unknown age, origin and health status over 2 borders was worse in terms of a public health risk than trying to get away with an EXTRA bottle of alcohol or a carton of cigarettes. I guess I should have specified that I was referring to one of each, for personal use, undeclared above the allowed maximum, instead of a trailer full of alcohol and cigarettes of unknown manufacture, destined to be sold on the black market to underage consumers.

Some of the risks to our environment, health and food supply are caused by people either inadvertently or deliberately bringing in undeclared live plants or animals and/or their byproducts.

In this case, the decision to smuggle the dog, undeclared, without proper documentation, was deliberate.

MOO

I suppose the meaning could have been slightly misunderstood, as in the reference that puppies are more of a health risk than alcohol or cigarettes, but not nearly as much or as out of context as the response IMO.

Would that be one puppy as a personal pet as opposed to a truckload of puppies for the black market? One puppy as a personal pet is more of a health hazard than a bottle of alcohol or a carton of cigarettes? I suppose it could be if the alcohol and cigarettes were never used outside of the smuggler's own house and the puppy was allowed to wander freely.

In either case, the decision to smuggle, whether it be a puppy or alcohol or cigarettes, whether for personal use or to sell, is still a deliberate decision and still illegal. And neither indicates in any way a persons proclivity to murder.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

So DM gave DP the boot?

rsbm

I have no idea. You just asked if RP had been retained yet or if DM was still looking, so I provided the link that says he will be representing him when it goes to trial.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I suppose the meaning could have been slightly misunderstood, as in the reference that puppies are more of a health risk than alcohol or cigarettes, but not nearly as much or as out of context as the response IMO.

Would that be one puppy as a personal pet as opposed to a truckload of puppies for the black market? One puppy as a personal pet is more of a health hazard than a bottle of alcohol or a carton of cigarettes? I suppose it could be if the alcohol and cigarettes were never used outside of the smuggler's own house and the puppy was allowed to wander freely.

In either case, the decision to smuggle, whether it be a puppy or alcohol or cigarettes, whether for personal use or to sell, is still a deliberate decision and still illegal. And neither indicates in any way a persons proclivity to murder.

JMO

It shows someone is unwilling to follow the law, just as a breach would.

Ultimately, DM is never ever ever going to see that puppy again in his lifetime...so it doesn't really matter whether DM killed fewer people with puppies than with guns or by any other means.

 

[swedie]

rsbm

I have no idea. You just asked if RP had been retained yet or if DM was still looking, so I provided the link that says he will be representing him when it goes to trial.

Again my point was from the get go...should DP be trusted with what he says? Interestingly enough we hadn't heard anything about RP being on DM's case until about year ago. BUT according to DP, RP has been part of the defense from "Day 1". "Day 1" started on May 10, 2013. HTH and MOO.

BTW apparently DM had to give DP the boot. HTH and again MOO.

"Ravin's been on the case from Day 1," was all Paradkar, who lives in Mississauga, would say in an uncharacteristically short interview about the switch.

 

[Kamille]

Sorry, I should have included this quote as well in my interpretation of your opinion.



I guess if it matters whether it's a cell phone or land line or fax machine, you could always call it to find out.

JMO

Again, didn't call DP a liar. And it was the newspaper that referred to DD's firm as respected. They didn't have the same term for DP.

The lawyer for a former Mississauga man charged with murdering Tim Bosma is accusing a respected law firm of inappropriate conduct after a member of their legal team visited the accused killer in a Hamilton jail Friday.

http://www.mississauga.com/news-sto...firm-visits-man-accused-of-killing-tim-bosma/

Apparently the phone issue only matters to those who indicate that DP is so easy to get a hold of and yet DD's firm apparently was unable to. One phone number IS a fax machine as indicated online. You can always try the other to confirm he answers all his calls.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

I suppose the meaning could have been slightly misunderstood, as in the reference that puppies are more of a health risk than alcohol or cigarettes, but not nearly as much or as out of context as the response IMO.

Would that be one puppy as a personal pet as opposed to a truckload of puppies for the black market? One puppy as a personal pet is more of a health hazard than a bottle of alcohol or a carton of cigarettes? I suppose it could be if the alcohol and cigarettes were never used outside of the smuggler's own house and the puppy was allowed to wander freely.

In either case, the decision to smuggle, whether it be a puppy or alcohol or cigarettes, whether for personal use or to sell, is still a deliberate decision and still illegal. And neither indicates in any way a persons proclivity to murder.JMO

BBM

No, but it does indicate a proclivity to breaking the law just because they want to or they may feel they're not required to follow the law like everyone else for some reason maybe because they've gotten away with illegal behaviour many times before. Like stealing vehicles perhaps.

MOO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Again my point was from the get go...should DP be trusted with what he says? Interestingly enough we hadn't heard anything about RP being on DM's case until about year ago. BUT according to DP, RP has been part of the defense from "Day 1". "Day 1" started on May 10, 2013. HTH and MOO.

BTW apparently DM had to give DP the boot. HTH and again MOO.

"Ravin's been on the case from Day 1," was all Paradkar, who lives in Mississauga, would say in an uncharacteristically short interview about the switch.

Well, actually no, your post that I was responding to when I gave you the link was not about whether DP could be trusted. Here is your post in it's entirety.

Over a year now RP has been working in the background because DP's hadn't been retain by DM since the AG ruled on the DI, which BTW was decided last July and coincidentally when RP's name came out of the woodwork. And at the time of this article, DP nor RP had been retained by DM. Has DM retained him yet or does DM still have his feelers out there searching for Mr. RightLawyer? MOO.

Documents from Monday also confirm that Deepak Paradkar and Ravin Pillay, the Toronto defence team that has been representing Millard, have not yet been retained. Glithero expects to be “advised of progress in completing (the) retainer of Mr. Paradkar and Pillay” on April 30, the documents say.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2015/02/25/bosma-trial-delayed-to-early-2016.html

I was not commenting on anything you have said, before or after, about DP not being trustworthy. I was responding only to that particular post and the question asked in it.

Your post before that, which was about him being untrustworthy, was this one.

Interestingly enough RP's name has not been associated with DM case in over two years but now all of a sudden (June 2015) we're hearing this...and from DP himself. Has anyone found otherwise? Do we trust what DP has to say? I don't think he's been too honest on many things to do with this case from the get go kwim? I for one am not putting to much faith into what DP says. Wouldn't one think, on such a high profile case, any lawyer associated would want some press release? DP had his fair share with speaking to the media and handing out his business cards on the courthouse steps. MOO.

I did not comment on your feelings about DP in that reply either. I simply gave you the link showing that RP had been in the news as part of the team since the direct indictment was given in July 2014 because, as you can see, you said that RP had not been associated with the case in over 2 years until now.

However, in now laying out the posts and their relationship to each other, perhaps I owe Kamille an apology. Perhaps it was your many comments about the integrity of DP that led me to read more into her comments than she wanted to be read into them.

I hope I have now explained myself sufficiently. I'm done debating things that mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. Whether a lawyer was fired or quit, whether he has a website or phone or secretary, and whether a person smuggles a puppy or a carton of cigarettes or a bottle of booze has no bearing on why a murder was committed or who carried out the murder and will not be an issue at the trial. I agree with Arnie that, whatever happened at the in camera hearing, resulted in the change in lawyers. The rest is just fluff.

JMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

<rsbm>

I hope I have now explained myself sufficiently. I'm done debating things that mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. Whether a lawyer was fired or quit, whether he has a website or phone or secretary, and whether a person smuggles a puppy or a carton of cigarettes or a bottle of booze has no bearing on why a murder was committed or who carried out the murder and will not be an issue at the trial. I agree with Arnie that, whatever happened at the in camera hearing, resulted in the change in lawyers. The rest is just fluff.

JMO

Personally, I think the fact that DM lost his lawyer with a winning track record, and has had to turn to a lawyer with a losing track record, is huge.

The judge has taken months to resolve this issue. That ain't fluff.

MS now has a much more winning lawyer representing him than DM does. Is that why DM spent all his time in court recently giving MS the stink-eye? Or is it something to do with DP, MWJ and MS?

How is DP going to support his cars and French chateau without juicy clients like DM? Would DP really turn down working with someone whose pockets are $12M deep?

(I mean, before the WM case is resolved and all the land transfers described as "beyond smelly" are sorted out http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/06/05/millard_land_deals_beyond_smelly_experts_say.html ...afterwards DM's fortunes may be much less.)

 

[SnooperDuper]

From this:

The prime suspect was Dellen Millard, the multi-millionaire heir and grandson of Carl Millard, legendary founder of a Canadian airline and aircraft maintenance company, Millardair. The criminal lawyer he chose was Deepak Paradkar who is unarguably one of the most successful criminal lawyers in the country.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca#sthash.NPHRka4J.dpuf

To this, a lawyer that isn't even billing $80k a year:

http://www.manta.com/ic/mtqpyb8/ca/pillay-ravin-barrister-solicitor

You can't buy a Lambo for that money.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Mr. Millard&#8217;s lawyer, Deepak Paradkar, said his jailed client is a &#8220;philosopher&#8221; who now spends 30 minutes outside in a cage each day* and has been reading up on the law ahead of trial. Mr. Smich&#8217;s lawyer, meantime, has said little about a client who appeared last fall in a gory rap video portraying a hatchet-wielding killer.

bbm= Perhaps DM is still studying law and doesn't need a lawyer like DP, he thinks?

*= BUT maybe, DM isn't able to study law because of impairments caused by solitary confinement:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...eres-no-end-and-no-beginning/article21976848/

In solitary, there&#8217;s no end and no beginning

People who have been stuck in solitary confinement report the same degradation of the mind, whether they were political prisoners, hostages or petty criminals being punished for jailhouse transgressions in Canada or the United States: They lose themselves, and their power to think. They become, weirdly, both hostile and lethargic. They give in to despair.

We can&#8217;t know why Corrections Canada follows this particular path, because no one from the agency would talk to Mr. White for his story. Instead, the vacuum is filled with evidence that no good comes from keeping people isolated for 23 hours a day, often for months or years on end. What comes from it, as reported by medical doctor and New Yorker writer Atul Gawande, is a brain that shows the same effects as if it suffered a major physical injury. &#8220;All human beings,&#8221; Mr. Gawande wrote, &#8220;experience isolation as torture.&#8221;

&#8220;Long-term effects include impaired memory, confusion, depression, phobias and personality changes, which may affect the offender&#8217;s ability to successfully reintegrate into society upon release.&#8221;

Most prisoners don&#8217;t get to tell their stories, especially the ones who are kept isolated from human contact for 23 hours a day. Their stories get told by coroners&#8217; inquests and special investigators, once they&#8217;re dead. But that silence doesn&#8217;t mean the country can&#8217;t listen.


http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...usual-punishment-canadian-medical-association

Solitary confinement is &#8216;cruel and usual punishment': Canadian Medical Association

&#8220;Isolated prisoners have difficulty separating reality from their own thoughts, which may lead to confused thought processes, perceptual distortions, paranoia and psychosis,&#8221; wrote Dr. Diane Kelsall, a CMAJ deputy editor. &#8220;In addition to the worsening of pre-existing medical conditions, offenders may experience physical effects, such as lethargy, insomnia, palpitations and anorexia.&#8221;

He looked emaciated, ungroomed and tired in court today, but still made eye contact and smiled at reporters and police officers in the body of the court.

Judge quashes ban on media & public at Bosma pre-trial proceeding
http://www.chch.com/judge-quashes-ban-on-media-public-at-bosma-pre-trial-proceeding/

Btw: Of course I know that SB has also lost weight; she has lost it for sheer grief.

 

[swedie]

Mr. Millard&#8217;s lawyer, Deepak Paradkar, said his jailed client is a &#8220;philosopher&#8221; who now spends 30 minutes outside in a cage each day* and has been reading up on the law ahead of trial. Mr. Smich&#8217;s lawyer, meantime, has said little about a client who appeared last fall in a gory rap video portraying a hatchet-wielding killer.

bbm= Perhaps DM is still studying law and doesn't need a lawyer like DP, he thinks?

*= BUT maybe, DM isn't able to study law because of impairments caused by solitary confinement:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...eres-no-end-and-no-beginning/article21976848/

In solitary, there&#8217;s no end and no beginning

People who have been stuck in solitary confinement report the same degradation of the mind, whether they were political prisoners, hostages or petty criminals being punished for jailhouse transgressions in Canada or the United States: They lose themselves, and their power to think. They become, weirdly, both hostile and lethargic. They give in to despair.

We can&#8217;t know why Corrections Canada follows this particular path, because no one from the agency would talk to Mr. White for his story. Instead, the vacuum is filled with evidence that no good comes from keeping people isolated for 23 hours a day, often for months or years on end. What comes from it, as reported by medical doctor and New Yorker writer Atul Gawande, is a brain that shows the same effects as if it suffered a major physical injury. &#8220;All human beings,&#8221; Mr. Gawande wrote, &#8220;experience isolation as torture.&#8221;

&#8220;Long-term effects include impaired memory, confusion, depression, phobias and personality changes, which may affect the offender&#8217;s ability to successfully reintegrate into society upon release.&#8221;

Most prisoners don&#8217;t get to tell their stories, especially the ones who are kept isolated from human contact for 23 hours a day. Their stories get told by coroners&#8217; inquests and special investigators, once they&#8217;re dead. But that silence doesn&#8217;t mean the country can&#8217;t listen.


http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...usual-punishment-canadian-medical-association

Solitary confinement is &#8216;cruel and usual punishment': Canadian Medical Association

&#8220;Isolated prisoners have difficulty separating reality from their own thoughts, which may lead to confused thought processes, perceptual distortions, paranoia and psychosis,&#8221; wrote Dr. Diane Kelsall, a CMAJ deputy editor. &#8220;In addition to the worsening of pre-existing medical conditions, offenders may experience physical effects, such as lethargy, insomnia, palpitations and anorexia.&#8221;



Judge quashes ban on media & public at Bosma pre-trial proceeding
http://www.chch.com/judge-quashes-ban-on-media-public-at-bosma-pre-trial-proceeding/

Btw: Of course I know that SB has also lost weight; she has lost it for sheer grief.

And if those SC prisoners are guilty of murder(s), I have no sympathy for them, none whatsoever IMHO. They did it to themselves, sealing their own fate. Certainly they do take legal punishment into consideration prior to committing murder, but the majority believe they are quite intelligent and slick in covering their trails. OTOH many murderers suffer from mental issues to begin with, their irrational thinking over powers normal logic. They take their chances to fulfil the satisfaction they get from murdering and harming others. Regardless of how warped and evil it is to murder, they have that need/desire to fulfil. MOO.

Hopefully DM did all his legal pre work in the beginning before any of those potential afflictions fully set in. Then again it really isn't up to him to do that work. That is why he hired lawyers. OTOH he may be adapting quite well in jail, preparing himself for the rest of his life in prison. As DP stated five days after DM's arrest, DM is preparing himself for the long haul. Certainly DM knew these days might come. Intelligent enough to know if he was caught, his life would be reduced to a prison cell instead of living in his newly purchased condo or on his farmland, in his dream house, no longer to have his freedom, coming and going at his leisure, he chose bland prison food over home cooked meals or fine dining, prison garb over designer threads, no (or minimal) physical contact with other humans, loss of friends/supporters and so on. Hey but maybe making national headlines, regardless in what form he acquired them, was more important to DM than his personal freedom. Who know? DM knows no doubt. All MOO.

 

[Juballee]

And if those SC prisoners are guilty of murder(s), I have no sympathy for them, none whatsoever IMHO. They did it to themselves, sealing their own fate. Certainly they do take legal punishment into consideration prior to committing murder, but the majority believe they are quite intelligent and slick in covering their trails. OTOH many murderers suffer from mental issues to begin with, their irrational thinking over powers normal logic. They take their chances to fulfil the satisfaction they get from murdering and harming others. Regardless of how warped and evil it is to murder, they have that need/desire to fulfil. MOO.

Hopefully DM did all his legal pre work in the beginning before any of those potential afflictions fully set in. Then again it really isn't up to him to do that work. That is why he hired lawyers. OTOH he may be adapting quite well in jail, preparing himself for the rest of his life in prison. As DP stated five days after DM's arrest, DM is preparing himself for the long haul. Certainly DM knew these days might come. Intelligent enough to know if he was caught, his life would be reduced to a prison cell instead of living in his newly purchased condo or on his farmland, in his dream house, no longer to have his freedom, coming and going at his leisure, he chose bland prison food over home cooked meals or fine dining, prison garb over designer threads, no (or minimal) physical contact with other humans, loss of friends/supporters and so on. Hey but maybe making national headlines, regardless in what form he acquired them, was more important to DM than his personal freedom. Who know? DM knows no doubt. All MOO.

Personally I don't think that cruel and unusual punishment (as defined by the Canadian Medical Association, see FromGermany's post above) is something anyone deserves. Be it at the hands of another human being or at the hands of our government, whether they are guilty of a crime of not, torture is not cool in my books. Isn't there something in the Geneva Convention about that? Or some old saying about how an eye for an eye leaves us all blind?

Even if some people have no sympathy for the torture of the guilty ones, shouldn't we wait until DM is proven guilty before we subject him to torture?

And about torturing those who already have mental illness with solitary confinement or any other form of torture, I personally do not think that is okay either, but that's just my opinion. Perhaps we should agree to disagree.

 

[matou]

His solitary confinement is by choice, isn't it? JMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

Anxiety? They've got pills for that. Psychosis? They've got pills for that. Depression? They've got pills for that. Drug plan? They've got that too.