REVISIT Does LE have enough evidence to Convict Casey on 1st Degree Murder?

[logicalgirl]

From what I can see on this forum, there is a huge majority that think Kc is guilty.

1: The defense has not presented their case.
2: There has been no cross examination of any experts.
3: Le has not fallen under scrutiny in trial yet.
4: We now have the murder weapon (Wesh says sources close to the investigation believe it is the duct tape)
5: We do not have the when.
6: We do not have the where.
7: We do not have the motive.
8: We do not have any direct evidence.
9: This last doc dump appears to me to be just a picture show what has already been released. Nothing new.

Once a jury sees both sides with equal time and equal experts, I believe they will see doubt.

On the survey here in this thread, the majority is at 75 % the minority is at 9 % and the unknown is at 15%. With 12 Jurors, that equals hung jury in my opinion. Hung jury without cross, without the defense's side of the story, without expert testimony from both sides. Top that with death penalty. I think she walks even if the jurors are picked from this forum. That is my opinion only.

Interesting summation. Would you have said the same thing about the Scott Peterson case? IMO you are running up the wrong wall - she will be convicted and will be very lucky if she doesn't get the death penalty. One deep breath of the trunk and a good look at the duct tape will slam the door on that girl so hard she will never be a free woman in this lifetime.

 

[whiteangora]

Interesting summation. Would you have said the same thing about the Scott Peterson case? IMO you are running up the wrong wall - she will be convicted and will be very lucky if she doesn't get the death penalty. One deep breath of the trunk and a good look at the duct tape will slam the door on that girl so hard she will never be a free woman in this lifetime.

Not to mention the party pictures, the 31 days and the tall tales.
There is just NO explanation for that!

 

[athy]

*snipped for space

From what I can see on this forum, there is a huge majority that think Kc is guilty.

1: The defense has not presented their case.
2: There has been no cross examination of any experts.
3: Le has not fallen under scrutiny in trial yet.
4: We now have the murder weapon (Wesh says sources close to the investigation believe it is the duct tape)
5: We do not have the when.
6: We do not have the where.
7: We do not have the motive.
8: We do not have any direct evidence.
9: This last doc dump appears to me to be just a picture show what has already been released. Nothing new.

they do not need to prove motive and many cases are won without direct evidence. actually in a murder case especially very few times is there direct evidence (i.e. someone witnessed it, or confession)

 

[LambChop]

What I want to see is something from defense that would be enough to clear her. But from day 31 she has not opened her mouth other than to spit out a couple of whoppers. When a Mom will not tell you where her child is it is usually a child custody case. Any other time a mother, when being questioned by LE, will tell the truth about where her child is, unless of course the child is dead.

I would imagine SA will have quite a story to tell as they put everything together. What stands out like a sore thumb (not GA) is the fact that from KC's text messages Caylee was interferring with her life. One of the most chilling things KC has said paraphasing here: "I can't imagine Caylee ALIVE and living with someone else." Very sad case because we can see it coming together. JMO

 

[Eidetic]

The numerous texts complaining about how she would like to be able to go out (and at times being so bold as to say she is definitely going out because she refused to miss another get together) with friends but "has to make up her mind" (yea right, she was stuck with "the kid"), or at different times complaining about being a "hermit" because she hadn't been able to go out for a week or two to socialize, the texts complaining about how many hours she sacrifices "work" (since we know she hadn't had a job in years she was complaining about being a mom, IMO) and desperately wanted a "normal schedule again" months before Caylees disappearance followed by the Fusian party pics during her daughters disappearance were more than enough for me even without factoring in the stinky car and the duct tape from the Anthony home.

I'm not that stupid.

She was done playing mommy, she wanted a redo. She got her pictures and video, even thought she put her in a safe spot where she could go visit her... Caylee made her mommy happier when she was dead than when she was alive. Sad.

 

[JBean]

Even though some of you may think others are "stupid" for voting no, the question isn't "is she guilty of killing her daughter"
The question is:
Is there enough evidence to convict her of First Degree Premeditated Murder?

 

[debbie0604]

**Respectfully snipped**Caylee made her mommy happier when she was dead than when she was alive. Sad.

I TOTALLY AGREE!! Not reporting her daughter missing at all... Caylee's own grandmother reported her missing AFTER 31 days, KC partying at Fusians during Caylee's disappearance, getting the tattoo "a good life," staying at her boyfriend's and cooking and cleaning for him, stealing money from her best friend and buying merchandise (beer and lingerie) for herself....As for motive...this says it all IMO.

 

[Eidetic]

If my post was interpreted as calling others opinions stupid, I apologize. That is not at all what I meant, I enjoy everyone's hard work, theories and opinions here at WS.

What I meant was, I am not stupid enough to fall for the bs the defense and the A's are pushing.

Plus it was a play on words... "Not that smart"... get it?

 

[JBean]

Here is a good example:

Jury: Otero guilty of manslaughter, aggravated child abuse

Edgar Michael Otero, who is charged with first-degree murder and aggravated child abuse, stands with his defense attorney Jose Torroella as the jury exits the courtroom on Tuesday

SEBRING - It took roughly three-and-a-half hours for a Highlands County jury to find Edgar Otero guilty of the lesser offense of manslaughter in connection with the November 2007 death of 3-month-old Alexa Hall, the daughter of his former girlfriend.
Otero, 31, was also found guilty of aggravated child abuse. He faces up to 15 years for manslaughter and 30 years for the abuse charge. A pre-sentence investigation was ordered and sentencing is scheduled for Feb. 26 at 9 a.m.

http://www2.highlandstoday.com/content/2010/jan/14/141625/jury-deliberates-verdict-baby-death-case/

 

[Trapshooter]

Even though some of you may think others are "stupid" for voting no, the question isn't "is she guilty of killing her daughter"
The question is:
Is there enough evidence to convict her of First Degree Premeditated Murder?

JBean would you consider the duct tape premeditation? I'm just curious because IMO any human that would duct tape a child's mouth shut is premeditating murder.

 

[JBean]

JBean would you consider the duct tape premeditation? I'm just curious because IMO any human that would duct tape a child's mouth shut is premeditating murder.

I think the fact that at this point the ME was unable to determine a cause death , let alone with medical certainty, it could possibly create a problem. JMHO of course.

 

[ZsaZsa]

From what I can see on this forum, there is a huge majority that think Kc is guilty.

1: The defense has not presented their case.
2: There has been no cross examination of any experts.
3: Le has not fallen under scrutiny in trial yet.
4: We now have the murder weapon (Wesh says sources close to the investigation believe it is the duct tape)
5: We do not have the when.
6: We do not have the where.
7: We do not have the motive.
8: We do not have any direct evidence.
9: This last doc dump appears to me to be just a picture show what has already been released. Nothing new.

Once a jury sees both sides with equal time and equal experts, I believe they will see doubt.

On the survey here in this thread, the majority is at 75 % the minority is at 9 % and the unknown is at 15%. With 12 Jurors, that equals hung jury in my opinion. Hung jury without cross, without the defense's side of the story, without expert testimony from both sides. Top that with death penalty. I think she walks even if the jurors are picked from this forum. That is my opinion only.

You should really watch the first court appearance Casey made- the Judge summed her up pretty quickly-
He said " You left your 2 yr old child with a person who does not exist.
At an apartment you cannot identify.
You lied to your parents and friends about her whereabouts.
It appears to the Court that you care so little about your child that she was not reported missing until 5 weeks later and that was only done because the grandmother insisted on seeing Caylee.
Your child is still missing and it appears you have shown no regret or concern for all your actions."

I think the Jury will see Casey for what she is, and decide what Casey did in record time. Add to these original comments all the circumstantial evidence that connects Casey alone to the crime and the only thing worth guessing about is how long it will take them to render the guilty verdict.
Legal experts may correct me but I believe Florida does not require a unanimous verdict.

 

[debbie0604]

Here is a good example:

Jury: Otero guilty of manslaughter, aggravated child abuse

Edgar Michael Otero, who is charged with first-degree murder and aggravated child abuse, stands with his defense attorney Jose Torroella as the jury exits the courtroom on Tuesday

SEBRING - It took roughly three-and-a-half hours for a Highlands County jury to find Edgar Otero guilty of the lesser offense of manslaughter in connection with the November 2007 death of 3-month-old Alexa Hall, the daughter of his former girlfriend.
Otero, 31, was also found guilty of aggravated child abuse. He faces up to 15 years for manslaughter and 30 years for the abuse charge. A pre-sentence investigation was ordered and sentencing is scheduled for Feb. 26 at 9 a.m.

http://www2.highlandstoday.com/content/2010/jan/14/141625/jury-deliberates-verdict-baby-death-case/

From an article I read on this case, Otero admitted to LE that he shook the baby. The case went to trial I'm assuming because of the murder charges? From what I read the defense had no witnesses? All of this could be why he received lesser charges. JMO.

In KC's case, she hasn't admitted to anything. The duct tape around the baby's mouth and nose coming from HER house coupled with the fact that there was decomposition in HER car in which NO ONE else was in control of the car...makes me think that she's guilty. IMO who else would want to do away with Caylee..(a sweet beautiful innocent child) and place 3 layers of duct tape - a rare kind of duct tape that was AT KC's home - over Caylee's mouth and nose - and place her body tripled bagged in KC's trunk without KC's knowledge? How can that happen? Who else would dispose of her several houses down the street from where KC lived? IMO no one except KC (who never reported her missing, who lied from the jump, who stole money from her best friend, who got a tattoo (who she also told LA the tattoo was done for Caylee "a good life"), who all in all was happy Caylee was out of her life. JMO I think this was premeditation - JMO

 

[marspiter]

From what I can see on this forum, there is a huge majority that think Kc is guilty.

1: The defense has not presented their case.
2: There has been no cross examination of any experts.
3: Le has not fallen under scrutiny in trial yet.
4: We now have the murder weapon (Wesh says sources close to the investigation believe it is the duct tape)
5: We do not have the when.
6: We do not have the where.
7: We do not have the motive.
8: We do not have any direct evidence.
9: This last doc dump appears to me to be just a picture show what has already been released. Nothing new.

Once a jury sees both sides with equal time and equal experts, I believe they will see doubt.

On the survey here in this thread, the majority is at 75 % the minority is at 9 % and the unknown is at 15%. With 12 Jurors, that equals hung jury in my opinion. Hung jury without cross, without the defense's side of the story, without expert testimony from both sides. Top that with death penalty. I think she walks even if the jurors are picked from this forum. That is my opinion only.

The only problem with your list is that 4-8 are not needed to prove murder in 1st degree. Murder in the 1st degree only has 3 elements. 1. Victim is dead 2. By hands of accused 3. with premeditation (roughly not actual wording). Now if you wanted to question the evidence as it relates to premed I would say you have a point. However 4-8 on your list are not needed for a conviction of murder 1.

1-3 of your list, are items that will take place at trial. This poll is asking opinion of the evidence we know at this point. Item 1 is going to be very very hard for the defense. Their client has made comments and unless the defense wants to admit those statements were outright lies then they are stuck with the Nanny story. If they declare those statement to be lies then that puts them in another hot spot because now their client lied to LE while they were trying to find her child. You see Casey of her own doing has provided her "defense" with little to no defense to work with.

Which brings us to item 2. The only thing the defense can do in my opinion is attack the evidence at hand. However for them to do that they will need experts to refute the experts the SA has. The defense experts are effectively MIA. That and they have yet to finish examining the evidence or even submit reports for discovery. So far the defense has 0 on the score board in this game.

For number 3 on your list yeah the defense can try the OJ approach but honestly attacking LE is not in my opinion going to be to the defenses best interest. Their client and her actions are going to superceed any finger pointing the defense wants to do towards LE. The 31 days and the lying from Casey is going to make any attack on LE by the defense look like desperation and possibly make the jurors mad. It's hard to claim a big LE conspiracy when the child wasn't reported for 31 days and to do so would just insult the jurors intelligence.

Now for me I would accept an argument that premed in this case is weak. I however think much of this circumstantial evidence is going to be enough to prove premed especially when one takes into consideration what the state of Florida constitutes as premed. Duct tape, computer searches, ect ect each of these is going to be used to slowly tighten the coils around Casey. A little OT but there is still the wild card of Felony Murder too.

 

[Charleyann]

I think the fact that at this point the ME was unable to determine a cause death , let alone with medical certainty, it could possibly create a problem. JMHO of course.

How could it be called accidental? That 2 year old didn't triple duct tape her mouth, triple bag herself and then placed herself and bags in a laundry bag and made her way to the bushes of Florida just yards from her home...

Most accidents don't occur in this manner....

IMO

Charleyann:banghead:

 

[Tulessa]

How could it be called accidental? That 2 year old didn't triple duct tape her mouth, triple bag herself and then placed herself and bags in a laundry bag and made her way to the bushes of Florida just yards from her home...

Most accidents don't occur in this manner....

IMO

Charleyann:banghead:

I didn't see where JB said it was accidental. Maybe I overlooked it?

 

[marspiter]

I think the fact that at this point the ME was unable to determine a cause death , let alone with medical certainty, it could possibly create a problem. JMHO of course.

Under normal circumstances I would agree completely. However the are anomalies in this case that kind of make it less of a problem. For starters where Caylee's body was found and the evidence found with the body. Casey's actions before the report of her child missing and the circumstances of that report being made.

When one looks at the 3 elements needed to prove murder 1, then looks at the details of this case I think cause of death becomes less and less material unless of course Casey wants to take the stand and swear under oath it was all an accident and I hid the body because I panicked....even then with the evidence in this case cause of death isn't imho needed at this point. It would only be icing on this really huge cake.

 

[Bee Charmer]

I absolutely believe the Prosecution will be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that casey anthony committed the premeditated murder of her daughter.

The searches on the computer for weapons made out of household articles, neck breaking, missing children and chloroform signal this was a premeditated crime imo.

The duct tape across Caylee's nose and mouth will tell the jury exactly how this baby died, imo.

IMO, there is no reasonable explanation for casey anthony's not calling 911 the day she claims Caylee was "kidnapped." Her actions during those 31 one days, are proof this woman was moving on after murdering her daughter, imo. The prosecution will have no problem proving their case to a fair jury.

I see no credible and reasonable defense here, and lyon, baden and baez will be unable to refute the State's case.

IMO

 

[ZsaZsa]

I think the fact that at this point the ME was unable to determine a cause death , let alone with medical certainty, it could possibly create a problem. JMHO of course.

She did state that it was placed on Caylee prior to death, and we know that occluding the airways with tape will cause death.

 

[JBean]

She did state that it was placed on Caylee prior to death, and we know that occluding the airways with tape will cause death.

But she did not state a cause of death in her report.
I suspect she will make a educated guess at trial but will not be able to state it with medical certainty.
I think no certain cause of death will be a bit troublesome. JMHO.

Also, did the report say prior to death? or did it say prior to decomposition? I have heard it reported both ways and am trying to get that straight.