Shannan Gilbert accident or murder?

[Taranyc]

I’m interested in hearing theories on Shannan Gilbert, if she was murdered or died accidentally. I always thought it was too big of a coincidence that Shannan’s body was found in the same vicinity as the other victims, Maureen, Megan, Amber, Melissa, Jessica, Valerie, Karen, Peaches, the baby and the male. And they all were sex workers. But after learning the details of Shannans sister, Sarrah killing Mari, their mother. Makes me wonder if maybe Shannans death was an accident. Sarrah was apparently hearing voices and schizophrenic, is it possible Shannan had an episode that night in May 2010? I can see points on both sides please share with me your thoughts or clues you may have

 

[dotr]

I’m interested in hearing theories on Shannan Gilbert, if she was murdered or died accidentally. I always thought it was too big of a coincidence that Shannan’s body was found in the same vicinity as the other victims, Maureen, Megan, Amber, Melissa, Jessica, Valerie, Karen, Peaches, the baby and the male. And they all were sex workers. But after learning the details of Shannans sister, Sarrah killing Mari, their mother. Makes me wonder if maybe Shannans death was an accident. Sarrah was apparently hearing voices and schizophrenic, is it possible Shannan had an episode that night in May 2010? I can see points on both sides please share with me your thoughts or clues you may have

Welcome to Ws!
Thread for Shannan..

Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert, 24, missing May 2010, found Oak Beach Dec 2011 #3

I don't feel totally confident in things J Ray has been saying for a few months but he has attempted to keep SG's case in the public eye, and has, of course, kept things moving in court. jmo I am mostly encouraged by recent developments. I can't think of a single thing Ray has said that has...

www.websleuths.com

 

[snarast]

Yeah, it's not an accident. That's just something everyone has to repeat like a mantra for one of several reasons, the top one being that they otherwise could get sued by the person who all but single handedly has turned this bizarre nonvestigation around, ie John Ray. IMO, obviously.

 

[IamRaven9]

I say it was murder. I posted about this on another thread but I will post it here too. Shannans family paid for a second autopsy which discovered both 'horns' of her thyoid bone and her larynx were missing. This is highly significant not least for the fact, the hyoid bone and its horns are one single piece of bone that form a 'U' shape. It takes a significant amount of force to break both legs off that U shaped bone, this kind of force is associated with strangulation.
That fact has been very much understated in this case as if to suggest there are other reasonable explanations for her completely broken hyoid bone. There are not. Then when you add to that the fact the autopsy stated her larynx was also missing, that is something else too. The larynx is soft tissue. The fact the autopsy could identify her larynx was missing says there had to be enough soft tissue remaining to identify that fact.. I hate to say it but, when you consider she had been missing for a year and a half when her remains were discovered laying face up, for there to have been enough soft tissue remaining in her throat area for an autopsy to note her larynx was missing suggests her remains had not been there for that long. I suspect she was held captive for some of that time.

 

[Liltoka]

I say it was murder. I posted about this on another thread but I will post it here too. Shannans family paid for a second autopsy which discovered both 'horns' of her thyoid bone and her larynx were missing. This is highly significant not least for the fact, the hyoid bone and its horns are one single piece of bone that form a 'U' shape. It takes a significant amount of force to break both legs off that U shaped bone, this kind of force is associated with strangulation.
That fact has been very much understated in this case as if to suggest there are other reasonable explanations for her completely broken hyoid bone. There are not. Then when you add to that the fact the autopsy stated her larynx was also missing, that is something else too. The larynx is soft tissue. The fact the autopsy could identify her larynx was missing says there had to be enough soft tissue remaining to identify that fact.. I hate to say it but, when you consider she had been missing for a year and a half when her remains were discovered laying face up, for there to have been enough soft tissue remaining in her throat area for an autopsy to note her larynx was missing suggests her remains had not been there for that long. I suspect she was held captive for some of that time.

This right here is why I joined. This was one of those cases I couldn't get off my mind in particularly, Shannan. I knew there was more to it, never heard the autopsy until now.

 

[fidgeypie]

This is MOO I haven't spoken on Shannan before, never felt that I had enough insight. I also agree that I think she was murdered, the problem I have though is stretching her to LISK. I've Been quietly reading the threads about her and I think this may call back to the court case she was due to testify in. And the person I suspect the most is Pak or Hackett.

 

[And_Justice_For_All]

I’m interested in hearing theories on Shannan Gilbert, if she was murdered or died accidentally. I always thought it was too big of a coincidence that Shannan’s body was found in the same vicinity as the other victims, Maureen, Megan, Amber, Melissa, Jessica, Valerie, Karen, Peaches, the baby and the male. And they all were sex workers. But after learning the details of Shannans sister, Sarrah killing Mari, their mother. Makes me wonder if maybe Shannans death was an accident. Sarrah was apparently hearing voices and schizophrenic, is it possible Shannan had an episode that night in May 2010? I can see points on both sides please share with me your thoughts or clues you may have

I believe she was being chased. Even the neighbor whose door she knocked on reported seeing the vehicle that she was running from. The screams in her 911 call were of true terror. Now that we know Rex held his victims captive and he liked to "hunt" them, did he hold her captive somewhere? Her body wasn't discovered until a year later. I don't know what level of decomp she was in when they found her. Did her body depict being deceased for a year?

 

[snarast]

This is MOO I haven't spoken on Shannan before, never felt that I had enough insight. I also agree that I think she was murdered, the problem I have though is stretching her to LISK. I've Been quietly reading the threads about her and I think this may call back to the court case she was due to testify in. And the person I suspect the most is Pak or Hackett.

Exactly - it’s a conundrum.

 

[fidgeypie]

I believe she was being chased. Even the neighbor whose door she knocked on reported seeing the vehicle that she was running from. The screams in her 911 call were of true terror. Now that we know Rex held his victims captive and he liked to "hunt" them, did he hold her captive somewhere? Her body wasn't discovered until a year later. I don't know what level of decomp she was in when they found her. Did her body depict being deceased for a year?

I agree with you up until you mention Rex. Rex tangled with Amber Costello and was chased off by her room mates, he lured her out away from them and got her to leave her phone at home. Shannan had a driver, so Rex would have to contend with Pak also. From reading rexs bail docs, it's clear that he was very much on his own in this. The call she made to 911 had pak and brewer in the background. I can't see rex being there also everything points to him being a loner, and I'm sorry but unless LE come out and say that the swingers parties can be verified I will take that with a pinch of salt very much my own opinion

 

[snooptroop88]

Murder, jmo. RH's "HK" doc makes it clear he's an incredibly resourceful and adaptable murderer. But LE will never be able to prove it unless some prior contact with Shannan is unearthed in RH's mountain of electronic devices (which it might be, and I'm hoping it will be). MOO, though. To me, the way they found SG reminded me of the AC murders with Eastbound Strangler.

No accident, jmo.

 

[SERE1]

I’m interested in hearing theories on Shannan Gilbert, if she was murdered or died accidentally. I always thought it was too big of a coincidence that Shannan’s body was found in the same vicinity as the other victims, Maureen, Megan, Amber, Melissa, Jessica, Valerie, Karen, Peaches, the baby and the male. And they all were sex workers. But after learning the details of Shannans sister, Sarrah killing Mari, their mother. Makes me wonder if maybe Shannans death was an accident. Sarrah was apparently hearing voices and schizophrenic, is it possible Shannan had an episode that night in May 2010? I can see points on both sides please share with me your thoughts or clues you may have

Hi, here's my take on it. I think it was an accident, not murder. Of course I am not sure since I am not privy to all the details. Firstly, anyone here know if Shannan was found in a burlap sack like the Gilgo Four? Or was she found fully/partially clothed with no sack, wearing what she was last seen in before she disappeared? I think it was the latter, or law enforcement likely would've mentioned the burlap connection with Shannan. If you take a step back and look at the bigger picture, RH killing Shannan doesn't make that much sense imo. The night she disappeared, she was with another client and then called 911 with that strange phone call. So she is outside trying to get away from her client and then goes missing at some point soon after. If RH did it, he went completely off of his MO, which he seemed to stick to pretty well for many years. Let me try to explain. This is what likely would have had to happen if RH did murder Shannan, which doesn't really add up. So Shannan is outside trying to get away and RH happens to stumble upon her, which is a big coincidence if true. Do we know if RH's family was out of town when Shannan went missing? If they were not, that makes it even less likely that RH killed her. Anyway, Rex would have taken her home from where he found her and did his heinous crimes as he did to the other victims. All his other victims were researched and contacted to use their escort services. Why would RH deviate from this plan so much this time around? Because he happened to run into Shannan and took that opportunity? I guess it's possible but to me highly unlikely that he would do that. And then at some point later he would dump her body near where she originally went missing, and not right by the Gilgo Four site? Remember Shannan disappeared in May, about one month before Megan Waterman vanished. If RH killed Shannan, he most likely would have dumped her very close to the others. But she was found significantly farther away. She was found way further away than even the other victims, like Valerie Mack and the toddler. Also, at this point, why would LE try to hide the fact that Shannan was killed by RH if it were indeed true. They could just charge him with her murder as well. I don't see the motive for them trying to hide the fact she was murdered, if that were the case. To me it's much more likely and reasonable to believe she accidentally drowned. On the 911 call, she sounded like she was either high on drugs or having a mental breakdown of some sort. She was certainly not in her right state of mind. So it's not impossible to think she may have become disoriented out in the marsh and drowned by mistake. Now, saying all that, I still find it amazing and almost hard to believe that her disappearance eventually led to the discovery of RH's dumping grounds, which had remained hidden for so many years. For those two things not to be linked in some way seems crazy, but I believe it was just an extraordinary coincidence. Maybe God works in mysterious ways, as they say. I look forward to hearing everyone's responses and thoughts. Thank you.

 

[red carpet fiber]

Firstly, anyone here know if Shannan was found in a burlap sack like the Gilgo Four? Or was she found fully/partially clothed with no sack, wearing what she was last seen in before she disappeared?

Gilbert's pants and shoes were found long before her remains. I'm pretty sure that when her skeletal remains were eventually discovered, she was not found in or near burlap. But I cannot be certain about that.

I too think Gilbert's death was accidental. She was known to be bipolar and had stopped taking her meds. I think she had an episode of psychosis/paranoid delusion and ran into the marsh and got bogged down in the mud/water, hence shedding her pants and shoes. Also possible she wasn't exactly stuck in the mud but removed her pants anyway. Psychotic people often remove their clothing during an episode. I don't know that she drowned necessarily, she could've died from exposure.
(I don't trust Dr. Michael Baden and his $$$independent autopsies$$$. He's a quack in my opinion)

 

[SERE1]

Gilbert's pants and shoes were found long before her remains. I'm pretty sure that when her skeletal remains were eventually discovered, she was not found in or near burlap. But I cannot be certain about that.

I too think Gilbert's death was accidental. She was known to be bipolar and had stopped taking her meds. I think she had an episode of psychosis/paranoid delusion and ran into the marsh and got bogged down in the mud/water, hence shedding her pants and shoes. Also possible she wasn't exactly stuck in the mud but removed her pants anyway. Psychotic people often remove their clothing during an episode. I don't know that she drowned necessarily, she could've died from exposure.
(I don't trust Dr. Michael Baden and his $$$independent autopsies$$$. He's a quack in my opinion)

Yes I agree with you, especially on Dr. Baden. He cannot be trusted. He noted that the hyoid bone fracture he found on Shannan shows strangulation may have occurred. But he failed to mention that the hyoid bone can break without strangulation, and there are several other causes, including: a hyoid bone fracture can occur if the neck is directly contused during a fall, and a hyoid bone can break if the neck is suddenly hyper-extended or if there is forcible swallowing. So this fracture could have also come from a fall and/or drowning. Someone on this forum stated that there are no other reasonable explanations for her completely broken hyoid bone. So I would respectfully disagree with that statement. Also, some have stated that Shannan may have been held captive for some. But for how long exactly? Remember, Shannan disappeared on May 1, 2010. Megan Waterman disappeared on June 6, 2010. So he could have only kept Shannan captive for about one month maximum, unless he kept both Megan and Shannan in his home dungeon at the same time. This is basically impossible, because his family would have been home for some of that time period and he would never keep a live victim at home while his family was also there. So, if RH did it, Shannan would have been dumped well over a year before her body was discovered. So either way she had been there for quite some time. One final thing to note. You mentioned Shannan's pants and shoes were found long before her remains were found. Actually, it was only one week before. In December 2011, a year-and-a-half after she went missing, police found Gilbert's belongings. Her purse, cellphone, shoes and even her jeans were found in the marsh eight miles from Gilgo Beach. A week later, her skeletal remains were found about a quarter mile from her belongings. This just adds more credence to the idea that RH didn't kill Shannan. He never dumped his other victim's personal belongings anywhere near where he left their bodies, so why would he do that this time around with Shannan? He seemed pretty good about sticking to his plan and MO.

 

[snarast]

Murder. Why would she seek out people to rescue her only to run naked into a marsh?

No, I can buy that RH is not involved, but with Shannan running from shady individuals just before she disappeared screaming bloody murder - well, it indicates foul play.

Personally, I think the most likely solution is that Pak threw her into the car and killed her. Proximity, opportunity and motive.

Motive - she was making a mess, risking everything.

Usually, people then say things like but then why would he talk to Alex etc etc. Well, because he knew that Alex knew Pak was her driver AND there were witnesses at Oak beach. Overtly Lying to Alex would have been a very bad idea. Titanium plate and such.

Like most good lies - Everything Pak said could have been true - except after all that happened, he found her, threw her into the car, pulled to the side and killed her.

 

[LR1]

He's worried about everything being at risk so he kills her and leaves her down the road a short distance from where he and his vehicle had just been seen by Gus and after Gus tells him he's called the police?

 

[snarast]

He's worried about everything being at risk so he kills her and leaves her down the road a short distance from where he and his vehicle had just been seen by Gus and after Gus tells him he's called the police?

That’s an incentive to get her into the car. He may not have meant to kill her but lost his temper. Not sure how risky dumping escorts was in the area at the time. Took the police long enough to find her, right?

And I’m not sure I think LE was really on the ball that night, or any night in at least a 5+ year period. With the exception of Blue.

 

[SERE1]

That’s an incentive to get her into the car. He may not have meant to kill her but lost his temper. Not sure how risky dumping escorts was in the area at the time. Took the police long enough to find her, right?

And I’m not sure I think LE was really on the ball that night, or any night in at least a 5+ year period. With the exception of Blue.

One thing I think you may want to consider. According to law enforcement, Shannan's remains were found about 158 feet from the side of the road (Ocean Parkway), in the dense marshland. While it is possible, I doubt anyone, whether it be RH, Pak, or someone else, would slog through that wet marshland (carrying an adult body) for 158 feet before dumping her body there. There is thick vegetation, with reeds in that marshland that can grow over 12 feet tall, and it's fairly wet and soggy ground, so it is not the easiest terrain to traverse. If she had been killed and then dumped, it would more likely be much closer to the side of the road, like the Gilgo Four. FBI data indicates that dumped bodies are frequently found close to roadways. So I think it's much more likely that she had an unfortunate accidental death of some sort, like drowning or exposure.

 

[snarast]

One thing I think you may want to consider. According to law enforcement, Shannan's remains were found about 158 feet from the side of the road (Ocean Parkway), in the dense marshland. While it is possible, I doubt anyone, whether it be RH, Pak, or someone else, would slog through that wet marshland (carrying an adult body) for 158 feet before dumping her body there. There is thick vegetation, with reeds in that marshland that can grow over 12 feet tall, and it's fairly wet and soggy ground, so it is not the easiest terrain to traverse. If she had been killed and then dumped, it would more likely be much closer to the side of the road, like the Gilgo Four. FBI data indicates that dumped bodies are frequently found close to roadways. So I think it's much more likely that she had an unfortunate accidental death of some sort, like drowning or exposure.

She could have been killed on the spot being dragged in there.

So it’s easier for a girl to run naked into this marsh than it is for a man with his clothes on - I don’t buy that. I suppose the argument would be that she’s crazy so she could do anything, however painful and irrational. It’s possible…I suppose.

I certainly wish she could have met a good samaritan that night so we wouldn’t have a reason to contemplate these sad scenarios.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

One thing I think you may want to consider. According to law enforcement, Shannan's remains were found about 158 feet from the side of the road (Ocean Parkway), in the dense marshland. While it is possible, I doubt anyone, whether it be RH, Pak, or someone else, would slog through that wet marshland (carrying an adult body) for 158 feet before dumping her body there. There is thick vegetation, with reeds in that marshland that can grow over 12 feet tall, and it's fairly wet and soggy ground, so it is not the easiest terrain to traverse. If she had been killed and then dumped, it would more likely be much closer to the side of the road, like the Gilgo Four. FBI data indicates that dumped bodies are frequently found close to roadways. So I think it's much more likely that she had an unfortunate accidental death of some sort, like drowning or exposure.

Or consider, she did get in car w Pak, now left Oak Beach are are on Ocean Parkway heading home West on this highway & just behind Oak Beach but they don’t realise because can’t see the homes. Still not calm, SG tells Pak she desperately needs toilet, he pulls over and she goes into the reeds to have some post binge/episode diarrhea. Takes a long time, takes off trousers, maybe tries to wash off. The swamp deeper than expected, she is struggling, wet now and wandering. Can’t find her bag, phone, clothes, can’t hear Pak or any cars as no traffic & reeds/wind masking noises to give her sense of direction. Or, still paranoid. We don’t know. The lack of sleep for 24 hrs hits her, lies down in sun, but in her exhausted physical & mental condition succumbs to hypothermia despite it not being freezing. Wet, wind, cold damp earth & she can’t maintain heat.
Meanwhile, after 10 minutes Pak tired of waiting, possibly has other commitments. No pay, police, SG awol, he just drives off. Two days later, the boyfriend calls and Pak doesn’t actually know what happened but doesn’t want to admit to last person to see her as the other guys in Oak Beach looking like better guys to point the finger at, they drive out to Oak Beach and Pak drives the narrative tells the boyfriend the version where Pak knows nothing.
IMO maybe