Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?

[truthspider]

I think I solved the riddle for the MEs office... if you can't conclude how she died with the remains given and there is 1 missing peice from the skeleton, you should be able to conclude that the 1 missing peice holds the secret. I know it's complicated so take all the time you need with this one ok?

 

[nugzter]

Hyiod- type in "missing" in the search. About half way through the article. It is not uncommon that the Hyiod is missing. But notice, LE did a second search and found it. It is a good read.
http://www.lwcag.org/forensic-4/what-the-forensic-anthropologist-can-do.html

 

[nugzter]

"The Hyoid bone is particularly liable to be missing or broken as it is a fairly small and fragile bone (Larsen 1997)."
http://thesebonesofmine.wordpress.com/category/hyoid/

 

[fred&edna]

Spota said. "The causes of death appear to be substantially similar, but we're not going to go into any further aspect of that at this time."

http://www.toledonewsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=13903767

But, a family member of MB was reported as the stating her COD was asphyxiation (and it's been discussed previously as to why this is so). Thus, I have been under the assumption that ligature rather than manual strangulation was the likely (substantially similar) cause of death for MBB, MW and ALC.

I want to think SG also shared this similar cod. However, the hyoid bone is most often fractured/damaged with manual strangulation rather than ligature strangulation (which usually damages thyroid/additional neck cartilage). So, I don't think the missing hyoid bone is of much significance anyway... I guess the perp could have changed methods in SG's case.

jmo, (as always)

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

I think I solved the riddle for the MEs office... if you can't conclude how she died with the remains given and there is 1 missing peice from the skeleton, you should be able to conclude that the 1 missing peice holds the secret. I know it's complicated so take all the time you need with this one ok?

you should call newsday and news 12 long island.
it might be BREAKING NEWS.

this case just gets stranger and stranger.... as time goes on.......

 

[Just K]

Cops searched the arrea where SG was found in the intial search....correct? So that would mean 1 of two things. Cops missed the body or body was placed. Lets assumer body was placed after cops searched. Say body was severely decomposed. How would one place a skeleton and make it look like it was there the whole time. You would need a medical backround (or some decent knowledge of the human skelatal system) so you can put anything that moves back in the correct place if you mix it up.

It is tough for us to answer these questions though....we do not have the details of the search and all we really have for the condition of SG is a satellite like shot. And her belongings were found after the initial search....come on!!!

From the recent High Profile Case in Florida, the public learned that if a body decomposes on the ground that adipocere...a greasy decomposition fluid, will be found under the remains. Oftentimes, grass and other growth will be killed by this bodily fluid.

Also, if the exposed bones, bones not under SG's shirt, bra, underwear, wig, whatever, were there the whole time then they ought to be a different color from the bones that where covered by clothing, jewelry, wigs, etc. In addition the exposed bones would have water and sediment marks that differ from the pattern on the less exposed bones.

There is no information, that I can see, to indicate that the ME or SCPD released any such results or even had a forensic pathologist analyze Shannan's bone. We don't even know if she had any clothing or jewelry on the remains.

I certainly hope that the information as to these details will, at some point, be made public.

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

wherre is dr. baden NOW?
he was all over the news in december when shannan's body was found.....

where is he NOW?
we need a medical expert in this...field of expertise... to talk to us.

 

[Just K]

Please read the numerous news reports regarding the area where she was found.......here's just one...http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/exam-of-remains-may-reveal-cause-of-death-1.3388774

"which police have said would have been under two to three feet of water at the time"

We have studied this area for 18 months now. We have looked at photos from the ground, photos from the parkway and aerials. Not a single Google Image has ever shown that area flooded. One showed some semblance of small pools of water and what appeared to be darker terrain in the cut out drainage ditches.

The only people who have ever stated that the field behind the houses and beside the parkway, was under water on May 1st, 2010 are LE representatives.

 

[Just K]

Seaslug, thanks for the newer images. Perhaps they can be put in an all inclusive thread that shows once and for all that although this brushy area sometimes gets wet and even gets some pooling of water, it is not what one would typically consider a true wetland. If it were, then all of the houses, cars & boats, to its East (Larbord & Circle for example) would also be constantly under the threat of flooding.

 

[Seaslug44]

If we are going to look at data we owe it to ourselves to look at the correct data. Using a Democrat point tide chart to make a point about the tides at Oak Beach doesn't make sense from a scientific standpoint because Democrat Point is the Westernmost tip of Fire Island. Unlike Oak Beach (which borders the Great South Bay on either side), Democrat Point is in the Ocean. It is also marks the Southeastern boundary of the Fire Island Inlet. Naturally, the fluctuations in both the high tide water height and the currents are going to be more extreme at Democrat point compared to the calmer, more shallow (and protected) waters within the bay.

If we are considering the details about whether or not the Oak Beach wetlands flood under three feet of water then can we please only look at the Oak Beach tide charts???

Here is the actual tide information for the first week of May 2010 for Oak Beach (actual site where SG was found) as reported by NOAA;


05/01 Sat 12:33 AM 0.87 H
05/01 Sat 07:40 AM -0.03 L
05/01 Sat 01:04 PM 0.7 H
05/01 Sat 07:41 PM 0.05 L
05/02 Sun 01:21 AM 0.81 H
05/02 Sun 08:24 AM 0.01 L
05/02 Sun 01:56 PM 0.66 H
05/02 Sun 08:24 PM 0.1 L
05/03 Mon 02:10 AM 0.76 H
05/03 Mon 09:08 AM 0.06 L
05/03 Mon 02:49 PM 0.63 H
05/03 Mon 09:10 PM 0.15 L
05/04 Tue 03:01 AM 0.72 H
05/04 Tue 09:57 AM 0.1 L
05/04 Tue 03:40 PM 0.62 H
05/04 Tue 10:03 PM 0.19 L
05/05 Wed 03:51 AM 0.69 H
05/05 Wed 10:51 AM 0.13 L
05/05 Wed 04:31 PM 0.61 H
05/05 Wed 11:07 PM 0.21 L
05/06 Thu 04:41 AM 0.66 H
05/06 Thu 11:48 AM 0.14 L
05/06 Thu 05:21 PM 0.62 H
05/07 Fri 12:14 AM 0.21 L
05/07 Fri 05:32 AM 0.64 H
05/07 Fri 12:42 PM 0.14 L
05/07 Fri 06:11 PM 0.64 H
05/08 Sat 01:13 AM 0.19 L
05/08 Sat 06:24 AM 0.63 H
05/08 Sat 01:29 PM 0.12 L
05/08 Sat 07:02 PM 0.67 H
05/09 Sun 02:05 AM 0.15 L
05/09 Sun 07:18 AM 0.64 H
05/09 Sun 02:13 PM 0.09 L
05/09 Sun 07:50 PM 0.71 H
05/10 Mon 02:52 AM 0.12 L
05/10 Mon 08:10 AM 0.65 H
05/10 Mon 02:54 PM 0.07 L
05/10 Mon 08:35 PM 0.75 H
05/11 Tue 03:39 AM 0.08 L
05/11 Tue 08:58 AM 0.66 H
05/11 Tue 03:36 PM 0.06 L
05/11 Tue 09:16 PM 0.79 H
05/12 Wed 04:24 AM 0.04 L
05/12 Wed 09:42 AM 0.68 H
05/12 Wed 04:18 PM 0.04 L
05/12 Wed 09:55 PM 0.83 H
05/13 Thu 05:10 AM 0.02 L
05/13 Thu 10:24 AM 0.69 H
05/13 Thu 05:01 PM 0.03 L
05/13 Thu 10:32 PM 0.85 H
05/14 Fri 05:55 AM -0.01 L
05/14 Fri 11:06 AM 0.7 H
05/14 Fri 05:45 PM 0.03 L
05/14 Fri 11:12 PM 0.87 H
05/15 Sat 06:39 AM -0.02 L
05/15 Sat 11:50 AM 0.7 H
05/15 Sat 06:30 PM 0.02 L
05/15 Sat 11:54 PM 0.87 H
05/16 Sun 07:24 AM -0.02 L
05/16 Sun 12:38 PM 0.69 H
05/16 Sun 07:16 PM 0.03 L
05/17 Mon 12:42 AM 0.86 H
05/17 Mon 08:09 AM -0.01 L
05/17 Mon 01:32 PM 0.69 H
05/17 Mon 08:03 PM 0.04 L
05/18 Tue 01:37 AM 0.84 H
05/18 Tue 08:57 AM 0.0 L
05/18 Tue 02:30 PM 0.69 H
05/18 Tue 08:56 PM 0.06 L
05/19 Wed 02:36 AM 0.81 H
05/19 Wed 09:51 AM 0.02 L
05/19 Wed 03:28 PM 0.71 H
05/19 Wed 09:57 PM 0.09 L
05/20 Thu 03:35 AM 0.79 H
05/20 Thu 10:51 AM 0.03 L
05/20 Thu 04:25 PM 0.73 H
05/20 Thu 11:08 PM 0.1 L
05/21 Fri 04:34 AM 0.77 H
05/21 Fri 11:54 AM 0.02 L
05/21 Fri 05:22 PM 0.76 H
05/22 Sat 12:21 AM 0.09 L
05/22 Sat 05:33 AM 0.75 H
05/22 Sat 12:53 PM 0.01 L
05/22 Sat 06:20 PM 0.79 H
05/23 Sun 01:26 AM 0.06 L
05/23 Sun 06:34 AM 0.73 H
05/23 Sun 01:47 PM -0.01 L
05/23 Sun 07:19 PM 0.83 H
05/24 Mon 02:24 AM 0.03 L
05/24 Mon 07:36 AM 0.72 H
05/24 Mon 02:37 PM -0.02 L
05/24 Mon 08:15 PM 0.87 H
05/25 Tue 03:19 AM 0.0 L
05/25 Tue 08:36 AM 0.72 H
05/25 Tue 03:26 PM -0.02 L
05/25 Tue 09:07 PM 0.89 H
05/26 Wed 04:11 AM -0.02 L
05/26 Wed 09:30 AM 0.72 H
05/26 Wed 04:15 PM -0.01 L
05/26 Wed 09:55 PM 0.91 H
05/27 Thu 05:02 AM -0.04 L
05/27 Thu 10:20 AM 0.72 H
05/27 Thu 05:03 PM 0.0 L
05/27 Thu 10:41 PM 0.9 H
05/28 Fri 05:50 AM -0.04 L
05/28 Fri 11:07 AM 0.72 H
05/28 Fri 05:50 PM 0.02 L
05/28 Fri 11:25 PM 0.88 H
05/29 Sat 06:36 AM -0.03 L
05/29 Sat 11:54 AM 0.7 H
05/29 Sat 06:35 PM 0.05 L
05/30 Sun 12:09 AM 0.84 H
05/30 Sun 07:19 AM -0.01 L
05/30 Sun 12:42 PM 0.68 H
05/30 Sun 07:18 PM 0.08 L
05/31 Mon 12:54 AM 0.8 H
05/31 Mon 08:00 AM 0.02 L
05/31 Mon 01:31 PM 0.66 H
05/31 Mon 08:00 PM 0.11 L

This confirms that at Oak Beach the high tide had an increase of only a foot or less of water.

still not convinced?

Then look at the tide table for Gilgo for May 2010 too;

05/01 Sat 12:32 AM 1.38 H
05/01 Sat 07:40 AM -0.05 L
05/01 Sat 01:03 PM 1.11 H
05/01 Sat 07:41 PM 0.09 L
05/02 Sun 01:20 AM 1.3 H
05/02 Sun 08:24 AM 0.02 L
05/02 Sun 01:55 PM 1.06 H
05/02 Sun 08:24 PM 0.17 L
05/03 Mon 02:09 AM 1.22 H
05/03 Mon 09:08 AM 0.1 L
05/03 Mon 02:48 PM 1.02 H
05/03 Mon 09:10 PM 0.25 L
05/04 Tue 03:00 AM 1.15 H
05/04 Tue 09:57 AM 0.17 L
05/04 Tue 03:39 PM 0.99 H
05/04 Tue 10:03 PM 0.32 L
05/05 Wed 03:50 AM 1.1 H
05/05 Wed 10:51 AM 0.22 L
05/05 Wed 04:30 PM 0.98 H
05/05 Wed 11:07 PM 0.36 L
05/06 Thu 04:40 AM 1.06 H
05/06 Thu 11:48 AM 0.24 L
05/06 Thu 05:20 PM 0.99 H
05/07 Fri 12:14 AM 0.35 L
05/07 Fri 05:31 AM 1.03 H
05/07 Fri 12:42 PM 0.23 L
05/07 Fri 06:10 PM 1.02 H

And here is the May 2010 tide chart at the Fire Island Lighthouse on the BAY side just in case you still are not convinced that the waters within the Great South Bay around the Oak Beach area only increase a foot in height at high tide;
*Date Day *Time ****Hgt*
05/01 Sat 06:04 AM -0.03 L
05/01 Sat 11:27 AM 0.7 H
05/01 Sat 06:05 PM 0.05 L
05/01 Sat 11:44 PM 0.81 H
05/02 Sun 06:48 AM 0.01 L
05/02 Sun 12:19 PM 0.66 H
05/02 Sun 06:48 PM 0.1 L
05/03 Mon 12:33 AM 0.76 H
05/03 Mon 07:32 AM 0.06 L
05/03 Mon 01:12 PM 0.63 H
05/03 Mon 07:34 PM 0.15 L
05/04 Tue 01:24 AM 0.72 H
05/04 Tue 08:21 AM 0.1 L
05/04 Tue 02:03 PM 0.62 H
05/04 Tue 08:27 PM 0.19 L
05/05 Wed 02:14 AM 0.69 H
05/05 Wed 09:15 AM 0.13 L
05/05 Wed 02:54 PM 0.61 H
05/05 Wed 09:31 PM 0.21 L
05/06 Thu 03:04 AM 0.66 H
05/06 Thu 10:12 AM 0.14 L
05/06 Thu 03:44 PM 0.62 H
05/06 Thu 10:38 PM 0.21 L
05/07 Fri 03:55 AM 0.64 H
05/07 Fri 11:06 AM 0.14 L
05/07 Fri 04:34 PM 0.64 H
05/07 Fri 11:37 PM 0.19 L

 

[Seaslug44]

We have studied this area for 18 months now. We have looked at photos from the ground, photos from the parkway and aerials. Not a single Google Image has ever shown that area flooded. One showed some semblance of small pools of water and what appeared to be darker terrain in the cut out drainage ditches.

The only people who have ever stated that the field behind the houses and beside the parkway, was under water on May 1st, 2010 are LE representatives.

I am sick of all this nonsense about flooding too. When hurricane Gloria hit in September 1985 her Storm surge breached Ocean Parkway near Gilgo Beach and washed away a good part of Tobay Beach. A few homes in Oak Beach sustained flooding and the OBI parking lot turned into a pond for about a week. Yet anyone who travelled Ocean Parkway after the storm will confirm that there wasn't any flooding on that stretch between the OBI lot entrance and the Robert Moses Causeway exit ramp (the area where SG was found). As a matter of fact, some of those trees there are easily seventy or eighty years old. No way that area is constantly under even an inch of water.

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

I am sick of all this nonsense about flooding too. When hurricane Gloria hit in September 1985 her Storm surge breached Ocean Parkway near Gilgo Beach and washed away a good part of Tobay Beach. A few homes in Oak Beach sustained flooding and the OBI parking lot turned into a pond for about a week. Yet anyone who travelled Ocean Parkway after the storm will confirm that there wasn't any flooding on that stretch between the OBI lot entrance and the Robert Moses Causeway exit ramp (the area where SG was found). As a matter of fact, some of those trees there are easily seventy or eighty years old. No way that area is constantly under even an inch of water.

if you ALL will recall - dormer said AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN that shannan DROWNED.
hello? dormer? where are ya now that the medical examiner has professionally stated that SHANNAN DEFINITELY DID NOT DROWN.

 

[truthspider]

BTK I mean TKM,

Dormer isn't we todd did, the SCPD is playing a game of tic tac toe with a serial killer and they are in a stalemate. Do you know why the SCPD searched the water's along the shore in oak beach in later winter of 2011? Because neighbors saw a POI acting fishy near the shoreline, the same reason they searched ocean parkway 4 miles away, neighbors saw mr fishy down there. Do you know why LE said they think she drowned? Because an interrogated POI said she probably drowned. They are pandering to the suspect to get him to feel like he is not a suspect, to talk more, to become comfy again. Get comfy fishy, the lures are waiting.

What? The fishy went on the lamb and is hiding out by himself in Florida? Now how are we going to catch the Albert fish.

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

The itsy-bitsy spider
Climbed up the water spout
Down came the rain
And washed the spider out
Out came the sun
And dried up all the rain
And the itsy-bitsy spider
Climbed up the spout again

ahhhhhh the fishy fishing POI who cast and recast his LURE (hook?)
at the end of his fishing rod.

what's that song by billy joel?
Who needs a house out in Hackensack (ack ack ack ack ack)
Is that all you get for your money?

fishy fisherman nevah gonna be brought down.
nevah. he's free...free....free.
no one has anything on him. no evidence.
no evidence....
fishy fisherman.....slimy tho he may be.... he be free.

whether fishy fisherman slimy man that he is is in florida
or new york....he's FREE

:banghead:

 

[internetgirl101]

OT -
Hey all!
I've been away for awhile, working a new job (WooHoo!), but I just want to say thank you to everyone who is keeping these cases alive! I love that I can't keep up with the reading on all the different threads..
but I'm very saddened by the non-progress in SG's case.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

After reading a few posts recently, I've been googling away, and I really don't know what the significance of fresh/salt water is.
But I did find something that mentions BOTH Oak Beach, and Manorville reguarding restoration projects? I don't quite understand what is being said, but looking into Oak Beach, and then scrolling down, and finding the mention of Manorville scared me!

http://www.dec.ny.gov/enb/20110202_reg1.html

Anyone familiar with the "Peconic River Sportsman's Club"? What do these "sportsmen" do?

[ame="http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Donahue+Pond+ny&rlz=1R2ADFA_enUS459&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1024&bih=560&wrapid=tlif133659827764910&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl"]Donahue Pond ny - Google Maps[/ame]

Sorry if any of this was posted already.

 

[Just K]

OT -
Hey all!
I've been away for awhile, working a new job (WooHoo!), but I just want to say thank you to everyone who is keeping these cases alive! I love that I can't keep up with the reading on all the different threads..
but I'm very saddened by the non-progress in SG's case.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

After reading a few posts recently, I've been googling away, and I really don't know what the significance of fresh/salt water is.
But I did find something that mentions BOTH Oak Beach, and Manorville reguarding restoration projects? I don't quite understand what is being said, but looking into Oak Beach, and then scrolling down, and finding the mention of Manorville scared me!

http://www.dec.ny.gov/enb/20110202_reg1.html

Anyone familiar with the "Peconic River Sportsman's Club"? What do these "sportsmen" do?

Donahue Pond ny - Google Maps

Sorry if any of this was posted already.

A member here, Inspctrgadget, has done quite a bit of research on this aspect of the case. Just go to the search bar...type in "Peconic" check "show posts." and that should get you there. If that doesn't work, click on Inspctrgadget's name and click on show all posts.

 

[PickleChris]

Spota said. "The causes of death appear to be substantially similar, but we're not going to go into any further aspect of that at this time."

http://www.toledonewsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=13903767

But, a family member of MB was reported as the stating her COD was asphyxiation (and it's been discussed previously as to why this is so). Thus, I have been under the assumption that ligature rather than manual strangulation was the likely (substantially similar) cause of death for MBB, MW and ALC.

I want to think SG also shared this similar cod. However, the hyoid bone is most often fractured/damaged with manual strangulation rather than ligature strangulation (which usually damages thyroid/additional neck cartilage). So, I don't think the missing hyoid bone is of much significance anyway... I guess the perp could have changed methods in SG's case.

jmo, (as always)

I remember hearing that one (maybe all?) of the GB4 was found with a garrote? This was once again mentioned by the media a few times and then hushed. Could it be SG was found with something other then her belongings? It is strange that there is no mention of belongings/items her remains were found with - but then again, she is identified. They knew who they were looking for.

 

[impatientredhead]

In my opinion strategically filing a misdemeanor sextrade charge against Pak or anyone else would be very shortsighted. From a legal standpoint it is not the slam dunk conviction some people are painting it to be.

First of all the only key evidence would be the statements made by the would be accused gave in their statements. That testimony can be recanted at a minimum and more likely you would see the defense ask that the statements be excluded from evidence. Confessions get thrown out all the time, would be accused had their rights violated, don't have to testify against yourself, LE didn't inform them appropriately, yada yada.... but my point being that you can't hinge the entire case on a verbal statement that can be recanted or possibly excluded.

In the bigger picture if you assume that the would be accused (insert POI name here) is possibly a serial killer taking them to trial on a misdemeanor charge could put the state in the position of having to release evidence that they are not ready to reveal yet. Big risk for a pretty minor payoff. A misdemeanor charge carries a MAXIMUM of a year in jail.
You could also effect what this person could be charged afterwards.

It is complicated but the State cannot take the crime committed/the event/incident charge you with crime A, let you do your time and then haul you back into court using the same event/incident/evidence and charge you with crimes BC and D. You open the door for defense to argue that additional more serious charges can't be filed depending/based on how you define the event. Again a risk that when compared to the payoff?

The reality is that the people who are likely to be the key witnesses to identifying this serial killer are most likely going to have criminal issues of their own. Sex trade, illegal drugs, probation violations. It is not going to encourage people to call LE and say they had a john they think is creepy if they think you are going to charge them with solicitation, whether we are talking about the girl or her pimp.

It is frustrating how long these investigations take and it would at least *feel* like something was happening, someone was being held accountable for their admitted sins. It is not an issue, in my opinion, of lazy prosecution, sloppy police work, or apathy because the victims are prostitutes.

 

[impatientredhead]

I had a post about things I noticed regarding the night SG disappeared and just lost the whole thing! I hate that and I don't have time to redo the whole thing, but the short version:

The doctor issue really sets my radar off. First the CVS visit, if the pharmacy was open at the time of their visit I think it is likely that a prescription was part of the deal that night. They went to the party/date location very briefly and then went to CVS and then came right back. There prescriptions, like oxys for example, that cannot be called in. You have to have the written script from the doctor. If the CVS visit was for supplies, condom/lube/or the like they could have stopped on the way. It is possible the need for said item wasn't known until they got to the house, but the timing doesn't support that scenario easily.

The doctor calling the mom/sister in the days afterwards, the story about those calls changing, and the halfway house really stand out to me redflags. If the serial killer in this scenario is a *respected* member of society by day and preys on the prostitutes in my other life, well a noble venture like a halfway house would put me in contact with these women in a way I don't have to hide, that can be explained.... actually puts me in a trusted role with the women who might treat me with a bit more caution as a john. There are multiple girls that took unusual risks with their last call. Didn't take their phone, didn't take their normal safety precautions, that seemed to know or trust the person they were going to meet.

SG clearly was panicked and irrational at the end of the evening. Clearly she was in danger but the 20 minute 911 call was made from inside the john's house. For some reason I had it in my head that she made that call from her cell, while already in escape mode. Being in the house, not in escape mode, being able to stay on the phone that long.... I don't think she had been attacked, choked, etc at that point. I think being drugged, by her own accord or by someone elses hand, would definitely contribute to her not being able to communicate with the help she was close to so many times in that last hour. There is the 911 call that she was able to make and stay on so long with but not able to communicate in a way that would identify her location. She made it to the neighbor successfully, now had an open door, a witness, another call made to 911 but this time with a location but she fled what could have been safety back into danger.

I was expecting the COD to a combination of toxicology and a cardiac event. She was possibly drugged and had an extended period of extreme panic/shock culminating in the physical exertion of running for her life. So much time had passed before they found her though we will probably never know.

 

[truthspider]

I had a post about things I noticed regarding the night SG disappeared and just lost the whole thing! I hate that and I don't have time to redo the whole thing, but the short version:

The doctor issue really sets my radar off. First the CVS visit, if the pharmacy was open at the time of their visit I think it is likely that a prescription was part of the deal that night. They went to the party/date location very briefly and then went to CVS and then came right back. There prescriptions, like oxys for example, that cannot be called in. You have to have the written script from the doctor. If the CVS visit was for supplies, condom/lube/or the like they could have stopped on the way. It is possible the need for said item wasn't known until they got to the house, but the timing doesn't support that scenario easily.

The doctor calling the mom/sister in the days afterwards, the story about those calls changing, and the halfway house really stand out to me redflags. If the serial killer in this scenario is a *respected* member of society by day and preys on the prostitutes in my other life, well a noble venture like a halfway house would put me in contact with these women in a way I don't have to hide, that can be explained.... actually puts me in a trusted role with the women who might treat me with a bit more caution as a john. There are multiple girls that took unusual risks with their last call. Didn't take their phone, didn't take their normal safety precautions, that seemed to know or trust the person they were going to meet.

SG clearly was panicked and irrational at the end of the evening. Clearly she was in danger but the 20 minute 911 call was made from inside the john's house. For some reason I had it in my head that she made that call from her cell, while already in escape mode. Being in the house, not in escape mode, being able to stay on the phone that long.... I don't think she had been attacked, choked, etc at that point. I think being drugged, by her own accord or by someone elses hand, would definitely contribute to her not being able to communicate with the help she was close to so many times in that last hour. There is the 911 call that she was able to make and stay on so long with but not able to communicate in a way that would identify her location. She made it to the neighbor successfully, now had an open door, a witness, another call made to 911 but this time with a location but she fled what could have been safety back into danger.

I was expecting the COD to a combination of toxicology and a cardiac event. She was possibly drugged and had an extended period of extreme panic/shock culminating in the physical exertion of running for her life. So much time had passed before they found her though we will probably never know.

Right on. This case has always been that clear to me as well. I suspect they didn't drive to the cvs though, I think they got the drugs from the local doc, and the intelligent woman she was, SG, knew something was up with what she took and called the pharmacy listed on the bottle because of the unexpected reaction she was having. I think the doc knew who these drugs were for, and decided on the spot to have a little sadistic fun that night and create an emergency situation that he assumed he would be called in to help with. I believe he intentionally manufactured a patient/victim, this form of medical neglect is notoriously difficult to define, detect, confirm and prove. The unknown drug and it's unpredictable reaction could very well have lead to SG's misinterpretation of others motives and intentions, hence being afraid of MP and JB.

The former emergency medic/police surgeon/EMT/volunteer security guard was desperately seeking the feelings of adequacy that come from taking control of an emergency situation and manufactured the traumatic events that unfolded on May 1st.