Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #1

[Richard]

Richard, was there mall security back then? Were they ever questioned about the tape recorder man? ....

Rhett,

I would have to say that Yes, there was mall security in 1975, although I do not know what the extent of it was at Wheaton Plaza Shopping Center.

One of the Washington Post Articles about the Tape Recorder Man (TRM) specifically quotes the head of security at Iverson Mall in Prince Georges County.

It is that article which speaks about customers and sales persons at both Iverson Mall and adjacent Marlow Heights Shopping Center seeing someone that they thought was TRM on the weekend prior to the disappearance of the Lyon Sisters. The Security Chief mentioned how they had been briefed by Montgomery County Police to watch for someone fitting the description and sketch of TRM.

 

[Richard]

...
... I have articulated my theory previously but after some weeks thinking about it I am even more convinced that it went something like this: TRM needed a last name to put his scheme together, OR, he simply understood that he needed to sit at the back of of Wheaton plaza and watch for potential young kids to walk through the woods. He could spy them come in without parental protection and know their approximate routes home.

If you parked by Wards you could inconspicuously watch children approach the mall and not be seen. I do not remember a way to drive through to neighborhoods from that part of the mall. TRM did not need that kind neighborhood access, he only needed a few minutes head start on an unsuspecting victim(s).

If the kids had mentioned their brother at the mall he could have lied to them about him, saying, "your brother got hit by a car and the police need your help". I imagine that a distant siren in the background could have helped in his vile deception....

... Maybe their tormentor was transporting them, but it seems so unlikely.

Your scenario is quite plausible and possible, although there is room for speculation and variation.

I agree with you that TRM was likely seeking any and all information from the girls that he could weave into his subsequent abduction plan. Information regarding family specifics, home location, route, time expected home, willingness to talk, etc. - all would have been useful information for him. He may also have stated to the girls that he knew their parents, or went to their church, or worked with their Dad...etc.

Although it is possible that he got a last name and looked it up in the phone book, I do not know for a fact whether Lyons had a listed phone number in March of 1975. It might have helped TRM, but would not necessarily have been a show stopper one way or the other.

I agree that TRM was likely also the abductor of the girls. He probably had done some driving around the neighborhood so that he knew the streets and how to get in and out quickly.

By the way, there was no road which directly connected the Kensington housing area to Wheaton Plaza Shopping Center. The girls were able to walk there directly because of a foot path which joined the residential roads to the parking lot. A driver would have to exit through one of three places, go out onto busy four-lane roads, and then enter the Residential Area through one of several residential roads.

In this case, the fastest automobile route from Wards to an intercept point would be to exit the parking lot by way of the North exit/entrance onto Viers Mill Road, heading west, and then make an immediate left onto Drumm Ave. This could happen easily and quickly, depending on the traffic situation.

Actual "abduction" would have been best achieved through deception and a believable story such as the "accident" or "hospital" scheme.

To speculate for a moment, it might have gone like this: TRM might have learned from the girls that their father was John Lyon the famous radio announcer. He might have said, "Oh, I know him well. Is he home today? I might drop in to see him."

Later intercepting the girls, TRM could have said, "I just came from your house. Your mother has been in a bad accident and your dad asked me to come get you and bring you to the hospital. He is on his way there with her now." The girls having "met" TRM earlier, and having become somewhat comfortable with him, would be less suspicious of his story and offer of a ride.

Again, the above is pure speculation (since nobody actually saw the girls getting into a vehicle) but such a scenario might have worked on the girls. Once in his vehicle, the escape route would have been quick and easy as you point out.

Exactly WHERE the abductor took the girls cannot be determined, unless other factors and information can be known or other connections made. Just about any direction away from Wheaton Plaza is possible.

Regarding the IBM man's report of a possible sighting of the girls two weeks later: The man probably was reporting what he saw. And, of course, it is possible that he actually observed the abductor with the girls very early that morning of 7 April 1975 ...

But it is more likely that what he saw was either a hoax, or perhaps a misinterpretation of something innocent.

For instance, there were a number of hoax callers to police and to the Lyon house throughout those days. Some clown might have though it a good joke to pretend to be the abductor with victims in the back of his car.

Or, The driver of the tan Ford station wagon might have been a father of children who had been driving through the night with them sleeping in the back of the car. Seeing a glimpse of a child rising up in the back window of the station wagon, after seeing and hearing reports of the Lyon sisters for two weeks, the IBM man may have read more into his sighting. There was another newspaper story which mentioned a Blue Ford with bumper stickers being sought by police. This was later determined to be a car owned by a woman who had two daughter of the same general age and description as the Lyon sisters.

From what I have seen and read about this case, I would give the "Tan Ford Station Wagon" story about a 50 - 50 chance of being an actual Lyon Sisters sighting.

I would give a much higher probability to the TRM story being a viable clue in this mystery.

 

[Thrasher]

The Lyons did have a listed number at the time, and for some time after that, amazingly, they kept it - just to be sure they could be reached by a legitimate kidnapper. They are not listed now, although their number is readily available.

There was a discussion here a while back about the site of abduction - as a longtime Kensington resident, and someone who lives right by the presumed walk home, I think it would have been absolutely impossible to abduct the girls while they were walking home - for one thing, there was no through road for cars (and still isn't) Drumm Road then was a dirt path through tall grass; no one could forcibly abduct two girls that age on foot and whisk them away to a car without causing a tremendous amount of commotion, if he could have done it at all. Further, it would have taken extraordinary timing to ambush them at the right spot.

It is much more likely that the girls could have fallen for a well-designed scheme (such as Coffey is known for) at the Plaza, and gone peacefully; the notion that they would hop into a stranger's car (no matter what the story given) walking home is extremely unlikely. Only one person claimed to have seen them walking home; a boy who only came forward weeks later, and is of questionable credibility.

I give close to zero possibility that the Manassas sighting was genuine - mainly because it would be the most absurd thing for an abductor to do, and there would simply be no long term escape in a congested area in a Ford station wagon. The Lyon Sisters were front-page news at that time. Everyone in the area was watching for a beige Ford wagon, and vigilantes started pulling people over who seemed to match that description.

The grim reality is that if the perpetrator had a pattern of behavior like Coffey, the chances the girsl were alive two weeks after abduction were minimal.

I don't think a complicated scenario is necessary, where a simpler on will do (Ockham's Razor again). This person (I believe it was Coffey) went trolling that day at Wheaton Plaza with a tape recorder scheme, and just got very lucky; not so much entrapping them, as getting away undetected.

 

[thefirstman]

The Lyons did have a listed number at the time, and for some time after that, amazingly, they kept it - just to be sure they could be reached by a legitimate kidnapper. They are not listed now, although their number is readily available.

There was a discussion here a while back about the site of abduction - as a longtime Kensington resident, and someone who lives right by the presumed walk home, I think it would have been absolutely impossible to abduct the girls while they were walking home - for one thing, there was no through road for cars (and still isn't) Drumm Road then was a dirt path through tall grass; no one could forcibly abduct two girls that age on foot and whisk them away to a car without causing a tremendous amount of commotion, if he could have done it at all. Further, it would have taken extraordinary timing to ambush them at the right spot.

It is much more likely that the girls could have fallen for a well-designed scheme (such as Coffey is known for) at the Plaza, and gone peacefully; the notion that they would hop into a stranger's car (no matter what the story given) walking home is extremely unlikely. Only one person claimed to have seen them walking home; a boy who only came forward weeks later, and is of questionable credibility.

I give close to zero possibility that the Manassas sighting was genuine - mainly because it would be the most absurd thing for an abductor to do, and there would simply be no long term escape in a congested area in a Ford station wagon. The Lyon Sisters were front-page news at that time. Everyone in the area was watching for a beige Ford wagon, and vigilantes started pulling people over who seemed to match that description.

The grim reality is that if the perpetrator had a pattern of behavior like Coffey, the chances the girsl were alive two weeks after abduction were minimal.

I don't think a complicated scenario is necessary, where a simpler on will do (Ockham's Razor again). This person (I believe it was Coffey) went trolling that day at Wheaton Plaza with a tape recorder scheme, and just got very lucky; not so much entrapping them, as getting away undetected.

Thanks for the reply Thrasher. So well stated.

So, by elimination your theorizing that the girls were taken by being persuaded to get in the car and kidnapped in the parking lot.

That seems so feasible in that TRM could have waited by the mall entrance he spied them entering hours previously.

Eye witness reports of seeing them walking home were simply inaccurate.

I can believe this for sure. It actually makes more sense when I sit with this scenario.

Any eye witnesses would have thought nothing of the incident of a man picking up two young girls in a car in a mall parking lot. It's so congruent as to not arouse even casual suspicion.

He could have used some alarmist lie like your family member was in an accident or your dad had a heart attack. The only thing that sticks out as questionable in this scenario is their brother's presence at the mall. The girls may have been inspired to tell their brother.

More likely is the TRM's mix of franticness, some vague sense of exploration for the girls and their sense of intimidation.

This fits ShirlT's accounts of her experience at Congressional Plaza written about previously in this thread.



Now I really think MCP stink to high heaven. Mind you I have personal friends that joined the force and do not think of it as a force so different then most others. I do not think they are more negligent, incompetent, irresponsible, or corrupt then most other forces.

That said, my initial statement that their was a foreshadow of their kidnapping in this very parking lot in the weeks previous to the event. The MCP were supposedly informed of the event. This was a day when school was out. A simple, casual police presence would have most likely resulted in these two girls having a full and accomplished life and a family in Kensington spared infinite grief!

With a little bit of perseverance the MCP could have discovered that a sick demented pedophile was trolling their plazas looking to kidnap, brutalize and murder children in the mall. Since the TRM was spotted in the days before the tragedy just showing up and smiling and maybe asking a few questions might have prevented so much heart-ache.

Cops on the beat get so bogged down with the mundane that the lose sight of the forest for the trees. While civil order is essential a cops deeper responsibility is to protect us from the killers among us. They have to be able to read between the lines, create relationships and anticipate the unpredictable.

If the previous account by a member of this board was accurate than the Lyon Sister's kidnapping was preventable! That's my frame and I think it is an outrage that more was not done to make such a creep trolling our malls so much more unappealing.

 

[Jeb]

When all of this was happening in '75, I was always looking for an automobile of this nature. I did see 1 DMT Tag, but never a 1968 beige Ford Ranch Wagon (station wagon). However, LE told me that Coffey did have access to one. Is this a coincidence?

 

[Thrasher]

What I did not make clear in my message (although I tried to explain it in this forum two years ago) is that, targeting the girls at the plaza and then abducting them on the walk home would require incredible timing. Not only is that stretch of Drumm Road between McComas and Plyers Mill inaccessible by car, but the first part of the walk would be out of the Montgomery Ward parking lot into Faulkner Place, which could not be done by car. A driver would have to exit to University Boulevard and drive around to intercept them before they got to Drumm. Or, if they cut down the hill to the south of the plaza and picked up McComas, the same situation - a car would have to take the long way around and hope to catch them.

I should also have said that just that stretch of Drumm was a dirt path with tall grass - it was paved otherwise, with many houses around, so any disturbance would likely be noticed, on a beautiful Tuesday afternoon on Easter vacation.

Many people think that John Lyon being a modest celebrity was a factor, but I think it was sheer coincidence. A sexual offender would know that that would generate more publicity for the case than otherwise, put him at greater risk of being captured. As it was, thanks to WMAL and AFTRA, a reward fund was quickly established, the poster of the girls could be found in stores and on telephone poles throughout the Mid-Atlantic, and regular radio updates continued throughout the summer.

As for MCP, I don't have a strong opinion about their handling of the case, but I will say a few things - the Lyons were very impressed with their effort, and from my conversations with them, I think they still are. As you probably know, their son has spent his career as an MCP detective (even working missing and abused child cases, something I can't imagine). In 1975, MCP was very unprepared for this kind of event; non-family, daylight, public abductions were unheard of. The Lyons were not financially positioned to be targets of kidnapping for ransom.

In 1975, there was no database of sex offenders, communication with other jurisdiction was clumsy and slow; no DNA testing or electronic records (today there would be an electronic trail of Coffey's transactions, which no one has ever found on paper), and detective work was largely shoe leather and sifting through paper files. It took 12 years before they knew that someone named Fred Coffey with his history had been in the Silver Spring area at the time (and at the time of the Kathy Beatty attack). Looking back, I am sure they would have done some things differently. As with the sniper case in 2002, too much attention was paid to some minimal clues (in the latter case, worthless clues and hoaxes).

Most of the original detectives working that case have retired, but I think they will tell you it still haunts them to this day.

 

[thefirstman]

What I did not make clear in my message (although I tried to explain it in this forum two years ago) is that, targeting the girls at the plaza and then abducting them on the walk home would require incredible timing. Not only is that stretch of Drumm Road between McComas and Plyers Mill inaccessible by car, but the first part of the walk would be out of the Montgomery Ward parking lot into Faulkner Place, which could not be done by car. A driver would have to exit to University Boulevard and drive around to intercept them before they got to Drumm. Or, if they cut down the hill to the south of the plaza and picked up McComas, the same situation - a car would have to take the long way around and hope to catch them.

I should also have said that just that stretch of Drumm was a dirt path with tall grass - it was paved otherwise, with many houses around, so any disturbance would likely be noticed, on a beautiful Tuesday afternoon on Easter vacation.

Many people think that John Lyon being a modest celebrity was a factor, but I think it was sheer coincidence. A sexual offender would know that that would generate more publicity for the case than otherwise, put him at greater risk of being captured. As it was, thanks to WMAL and AFTRA, a reward fund was quickly established, the poster of the girls could be found in stores and on telephone poles throughout the Mid-Atlantic, and regular radio updates continued throughout the summer.

As for MCP, I don't have a strong opinion about their handling of the case, but I will say a few things - the Lyons were very impressed with their effort, and from my conversations with them, I think they still are. As you probably know, their son has spent his career as an MCP detective (even working missing and abused child cases, something I can't imagine). In 1975, MCP was very unprepared for this kind of event; non-family, daylight, public abductions were unheard of. The Lyons were not financially positioned to be targets of kidnapping for ransom.

In 1975, there was no database of sex offenders, communication with other jurisdiction was clumsy and slow; no DNA testing or electronic records (today there would be an electronic trail of Coffey's transactions, which no one has ever found on paper), and detective work was largely shoe leather and sifting through paper files. It took 12 years before they knew that someone named Fred Coffey with his history had been in the Silver Spring area at the time (and at the time of the Kathy Beatty attack). Looking back, I am sure they would have done some things differently. As with the sniper case in 2002, too much attention was paid to some minimal clues (in the latter case, worthless clues and hoaxes).

Most of the original detectives working that case have retired, but I think they will tell you it still haunts them to this day.

The first part of your response here gave me a possible confirmation of my initial crime theory. That is, TRM got the kids' last name, looked it up in a phone book, looked on a map and drove out of Wheaton plaza parking lot and made a best guess as to where he could intercept them.

Eye witness accounts, as I understand them, has TRM speaking to the girls and then quickly exiting the mall. Simultaneous to his exit the girls were eating pizza. Time frames, again as I understand it, have TRM talking to the girls between 1 and 2 pm and the girls walking home between 2:30 and 3:00 PM. This time frame allows TRM to easily exit the mall and drive out of the lot, into the Kensington neighborhood and wait for his victims.

My complaints about the police are mostly about how they failed miserably in the prevention of this crime. There is a posting, on this thread, that I copied as a reiteration, of a teenage girl picked up by a man claiming to be Paul McCartney's drummer and promised this girl and her friend the opportunity to meet the band. The girls jumped out of the car at a light where there was a Dart Drug store. The woman who wrote this thread stated that she later identified the man to be the killer of the 6 year old in Kensington and later the Harvard grad in Bethesda. The cops had killers praying on Wheaton plaza kids and according to this post behaved cavalier and arrogantly.

The girl told her father, who brought her to the Wheaton police station on Randolph and she reported having been not taken seriously by the police. She put the time frame as a week or so before the Lyon sisters disappearance.

This is powerful, and condemning information against the notion that such kidnappings did not occur in broad daylight.

The cops got a foreshadow and FAILED to take it seriously enough to be actively probing and sniffing and questioning and creating a presence at the mall at the right time. If this girls report truly occurred then this crime was MASSIVELY preventable.

I have stated this prior, police arrogance and disregard of children seemed to be the norm in 1975. I rarely had encounters with police, but as a child I certainly did not have a feeling that police were on my side, or would be protective of me, or would care about my well being in any meaningful way and this was before the Lyon sisters kidnapping.

What they did after the girls went missing is questionable at best. I appreciate that it is not today with all of our more modern forensic techniques and technological tools at our disposal. That said, proof is in the pudding, and they FAILED to come up with ANYTHING.

In my opinion this is inexcusable in that they did have a mountain of evidence around TRM. People called from all over to state that this sick pervert was trolling our malls. A probe into the docket down in VA Beach would have revealed one Fred Coffey living in a hotel in Gaithersburg. What would of a search and seizure in his hotel room revealed? Would the Beatty girl be alive today?

From the Lyon family's perspective the police did due diligence, but they could not see the forest for the trees. Cops cared and were compassionate and worked hard and late. But since Coffey was not revealed to be in our community until 12 years after he left it I say they blew it big time!

 

[Thrasher]

Again, I can't say what the police could or should have done. In 1975, abductions were not expected. There were always some police at Wheaton Plaza, because of its location central to neighborhoods with a lot of "low achieving" teenagers and dropouts, loosely organized gangs hung out there, there were desirable stores and restaurants for kids, there were sexual perverts (not kidnappers or killers, that anyone knew of) and it was a place where juvenile delinquent types would spend the day, intimidating other people (trust me, I was there). The county had a lot of crime problems even then, and I don't know what the priorities were on March 25, 1975. Wheaton Plaza was only one of several large shopping centers in the county, and the same kinds of problems existed at all of them. They were probably stretched pretty thin.

You also have to take into account how many reports and witnesses come forward that are worthless, but take time to check out - people with exaggerated stories, imagined sightings, reports of "suspicious" behavior, etc. When they got the report of the TRM from Prince Georges County, it probably looked like a lot of other reports - how do you know which is credible? In the month after the the girls disappeared, literally thousands of tips came in, including hundreds of people, representing all 50 states, who were sure they had seen them. And then there were all the hoax ransom calls.

If you read the comments of people who were around during all of this, the comment you hear over and over again is "our illusion of safety was shattered." It would not have occurred to many people that more police were even desirable.

 

[thefirstman]

Again, I can't say what the police could or should have done. In 1975, abductions were not expected. There were always some police at Wheaton Plaza, because of its location central to neighborhoods with a lot of "low achieving" teenagers and dropouts, loosely organized gangs hung out there, there were desirable stores and restaurants for kids, there were sexual perverts (not kidnappers or killers, that anyone knew of) and it was a place where juvenile delinquent types would spend the day, intimidating other people (trust me, I was there). The county had a lot of crime problems even then, and I don't know what the priorities were on March 25, 1975. Wheaton Plaza was only one of several large shopping centers in the county, and the same kinds of problems existed at all of them. They were probably stretched pretty thin.

You also have to take into account how many reports and witnesses come forward that are worthless, but take time to check out - people with exaggerated stories, imagined sightings, reports of "suspicious" behavior, etc. When they got the report of the TRM from Prince Georges County, it probably looked like a lot of other reports - how do you know which is credible? In the month after the the girls disappeared, literally thousands of tips came in, including hundreds of people, representing all 50 states, who were sure they had seen them. And then there were all the hoax ransom calls.

If you read the comments of people who were around during all of this, the comment you hear over and over again is "our illusion of safety was shattered." It would not have occurred to many people that more police were even desirable.

But my argument is one DID happen - if you believe her story.

The two girls got away. But it did happen. Shortly before the Lyon sisters went missing. Was it days before?

And for all the tips they got they only published the sketch of one very suspicious dude.

It was that dude who others called in about from all over the state. Mothers of young girls, and other young women. They had numerous corroborating stories. THIS was your BIGGEST and HOTTEST lead.

In fact, when that picture was published THATS ALL THEY HAD! So, if you took the WORSE case scenario then scouring the dockets of courts in neighboring counties and states for sexual predators with unknown where-abouts would have been a VERY logical step.

You are looking for a very dangerous criminal with an escalating pattern of predator behavior. He's a loner who started in PG county and worked his way into Mont co. He's mobile. He's hungry. He's relentless. He's bold. He performed this kidnapping by hiding in plane site. He is not known to anyone -as the sketch of his published face gets no-one to call and identify him. Therefore he is likely new to the area.

6 to 8 cops could have cracked this thing WIDE OPEN. A team of two goes court house by court house to the north, another to the east and another two teams of 2 go south. Any sexual predator that is known to the authorities and did not have a verifiable alibi can be sought after, ESPECIALLY if they are in the DC area. Cops needed to dedicate man power to go to the court houses. Meet other police - have conversations about who they are looking for and why. I absolutely guarantee you with this act alone the MCP would not only of had Coffey they'd of had 10 others that you and I never even heard of.

And had they done this and made down to Charlotte, which they should have, they would have had a history with their police forces when Coffey started his murderous behavior down there.

 

[ShurlT]

thefirstman...maybe you have seen the following information online but just in case...you diagnosed TRM on the prvious page I wonder if you would take a look at this website which describes a lot about Fred Coffey's childhood by 2 expert psychologists, Dr. Steven B. Bondy & Dr John M. Billinsky.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/nc-supreme-court/jun1794/coffey

Also, one of the Charlotte Observer headlines during the time of his trial 1987 or 86 indicated he was a loner and a liar which I believe was a quote of a statement by his wife, if memory hasn't failed me. I've been away from the facts for a long time so I could be wrong about the statement being his wife's.

Thanks. I tried to trick the website by saving this reply before filling it out completely but it didn't work & everything I wrote after the website address went into outspace so I'm not going to try to do it again.

 

[ShurlT]

Coffey's primary duty code according to NC Departmnt of Corrections Military History data for offender 0081135 was:

OPERATIONS AND INTELLIGENCE AS.

Not knowing myself what this entails...would it contribute any toward his activities in child abuctions like changing his appearance and other factors that might come into play and that would make it harder to detect what, how and where he had done certain things much of which would relate to deception I'm thinking.

Is it possible for people's facial apperance to change just slightly when they've moved into the pedofile mode, for example, or could it have been possible for Coffey to take on some of his father's appearance while moving into the abduction mode?

 

[ShurlT]

I also have had questions about exactly where the Lyon sisters were picked up/disappeared from...in the mall or in their neighborhood and also felt the way the neighborhood was set up behind the mall it just appeared an abduction back there would be really difficult without being seen and not exaclty affording a hasty exit. The following article was found recently that indicates 2 people saw the girls on their way home. This caused me to reconsider while also questioning....could it be two people are wrong about what and when they saw it? No way to know at this time so I don't accept or reject for now.

Researched by Barbara Ruben(Devin Place)

LYON SISTERS DISAPPEARANCE REMAINS KENSINGTON HEIGHT'S BIGGEST UNSOLVE MYSTERY

http://www.kensingtonheightsweb.com/association/kensingtonheights/lyonsisters.htm

James Mann recalls waving to them as they passed his house on the corner of Drumm ave & Devin Pl. He said they continued down Drumm toward McComas.

Back in 1975 Mann recalled that there was a large wooded area with a cut-through path connecting the two segments of Drumm. Drumm Court & the newer houses on Drumm were years away from being built.

I've studied MapQuest a long time recently and used both street map and aerial. Originally, I thought they had been picked up by Faulkner until I read this article. It does look like there might might be a possibility of not being seen near Drumm back in 75 but Im not familiar with that neighborhoodand and what it looked like on the street back then. Some one who lived there back then would be a better judge, I would think, whether they think it could be done.

Some months ago Jeb & I were going over this idea by phone and I had the aerial of Wheaton Plaza (back then) and it looked to me like the back of the store was on a raised level above Faulkner whereby if someone was parked in the parking lot to the east of the back of the building they could easily have seen someone coming up/going down the embankment from Faulkner and possibly could even have intercepted them near the back area of that building in the driveway that afforded an exit onto University Blvd.
Oh lordy, now I've hit something in the computer that makes the letters darker & I don't know what it was.
I've broken half a tooth, tried to type, correct, post this stuff while eating my supper that got cold & now this. I don't know how to fix it & it seemed to be my little finger got messed up in the keys by ctrl/shift/? & something else I have not idea what is it.

 

[thefirstman]

thefirstman...maybe you have seen the following information online but just in case...you diagnosed TRM on the prvious page I wonder if you would take a look at this website which describes a lot about Fred Coffey's childhood by 2 expert psychologists, Dr. Steven B. Bondy & Dr John M. Billinsky.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/nc-supreme-court/jun1794/coffey

Also, one of the Charlotte Observer headlines during the time of his trial 1987 or 86 indicated he was a loner and a liar which I believe was a quote of a statement by his wife, if memory hasn't failed me. I've been away from the facts for a long time so I could be wrong about the statement being his wife's.

Thanks. I tried to trick the website by saving this reply before filling it out completely but it didn't work & everything I wrote after the website address went into outspace so I'm not going to try to do it again.

This is really not a psychological profile. It has a diagnosis and some important historical information on it, but it is a legal document.

This is a typical attempted misuse of psychological data attempting to get a savage murderer off the hook for his heinous crimes. His victims never got a voice in their life or death at his barbaric hands. The jury, to their credit saw right through this deception and sought to put him to death for his cruel crimes.

The legal system screwed us all by letting this savage live and it is a blight on our society that MCP cannot freely and openly question this suspect.

We ALL know that good people come from bad family situations and vice versa. May Coffee's name and memory be removed from mankind for eternity.

 

[thefirstman]

I also have had questions about exactly where the Lyon sisters were picked up/disappeared from...in the mall or in their neighborhood and also felt the way the neighborhood was set up behind the mall it just appeared an abduction back there would be really difficult without being seen and not exaclty affording a hasty exit. The following article was found recently that indicates 2 people saw the girls on their way home. This caused me to reconsider while also questioning....could it be two people are wrong about what and when they saw it? No way to know at this time so I don't accept or reject for now.

Researched by Barbara Ruben(Devin Place)

LYON SISTERS DISAPPEARANCE REMAINS KENSINGTON HEIGHT'S BIGGEST UNSOLVE MYSTERY

http://www.kensingtonheightsweb.com/association/kensingtonheights/lyonsisters.htm

James Mann recalls waving to them as they passed his house on the corner of Drumm ave & Devin Pl. He said they continued down Drumm toward McComas.

Back in 1975 Mann recalled that there was a large wooded area with a cut-through path connecting the two segments of Drumm. Drumm Court & the newer houses on Drumm were years away from being built.

I've studied MapQuest a long time recently and used both street map and aerial. Originally, I thought they had been picked up by Faulkner until I read this article. It does look like there might might be a possibility of not being seen near Drumm back in 75 but Im not familiar with that neighborhoodand and what it looked like on the street back then. Some one who lived there back then would be a better judge, I would think, whether they think it could be done.

Some months ago Jeb & I were going over this idea by phone and I had the aerial of Wheaton Plaza (back then) and it looked to me like the back of the store was on a raised level above Faulkner whereby if someone was parked in the parking lot to the east of the back of the building they could easily have seen someone coming up/going down the embankment from Faulkner and possibly could even have intercepted them near the back area of that building in the driveway that afforded an exit onto University Blvd.
Oh lordy, now I've hit something in the computer that makes the letters darker & I don't know what it was.
I've broken half a tooth, tried to type, correct, post this stuff while eating my supper that got cold & now this. I don't know how to fix it & it seemed to be my little finger got messed up in the keys by ctrl/shift/? & something else I have not idea what is it.

I remember reading about Mann's eye-witness testimony.

It seems there is not consensus on this thread about how many witnesses saw what happened.

Sometimes teenage kids have better memory for certain kinds of detail, because their lives can be experienced in their immediacy.

Picking them up at the mall seems just too risky. I am not saying it could not have happened, but the risk of a child being suspicious may increase.

The ruse of a tape recorder would seem to be sufficiently sociopathic that it would have an extended tail to the plan. TRM had tried and failed numerous times before. Why did he fail? The success of his ruse is that he could literally be seen by the mothers of unsuspecting girls and get them to talk to him without the authorities being notified. He could do this repeatedly until he had could create a successful kidnapping.

What did he need to create a successful kidnapping? Was it simply an unknowing victim's sense of familiarity with him? If this is enough he still needs an interception phase of his campaign.

 

[ShurlT]

An email response from a police Sgt. who works in a Baltimore suburb concerning composites.

"The only way I can answer this is to say the composites are supposedly a general description and not a definite ID. If someone calls and says they think they notice a person that looks like a composite which they saw on television, then, the police jurisdiction should look into this in an attempt to identify this person. This would have to be done immediately for the police to have any chance to ID. When or if he is identified then most likely the state does what we call "Line up." This is when a witness is viewing possible suspects through a 2 way mirror. Keep in mind that this would be viewed by a witness of the crime only. A photo array can also be done but again with witnesses of the original crime. The state would usually go with a line-up over the photo array. Composites are usually done when a case has no remaining leads or if there is little to go on from the outset. There are plenty of legal requirements concerning photo shows, lineups and composites. I hope this helps."

I notice all of this applies to the witness of a crime only. I meant to post this a long time ago but it got away from me, sorry.

 

[ShurlT]

I think Coffey comes up for parole review in July but I can't find anything on the NC Dept of Corrections website like we used to be able to find. I wonder if they took it off because of all the emails they got on him last year?

At any rate, if anyone can find out if he will be reviewed in July this year maybe some people will want to send requests for him to be kept incarcerated. I haven't found any information posted online by Amanda Ray's family on this years parole review but last years is still online and still contains an address to write to and an email address.

They have posted information about how the parole review works and is not done the way we have thought.

 

[Thrasher]

I have read that story about Mann before, but I don't remember where or when it was published. In 1975, I walked from the Plaza to the Lyon home, just to try to visualize where something could have taken place. If Mann were correct, and actually saw them that day at the corner of Devin and Drumm, it is truly astonishing. If they headed down Drumm toward McComas, everything is in plain sight. Many people would have been around. An unseen forced abduction would be unthinkable. Even if he deceived them into getting in a vehicle (an improbable scenario), someone would very likely have seen them do, even Mann if he was still there. Once they crossed McComas, they are on a dirt path inaccessible to vehicles. They could possibly have been ambushed along that path without being seen, but it would have been difficult and if there were any kind of violent struggle, it would have been noticed. Once they emerge from the dirt path, they would be on Plyers Mill, a hundred yards from their home, where both parents were at the time - hard to think they would fall for a "your mother is in the hospital" story within sight of their house.

I knew this neighborhood 30 years ago, and I live in it now. It is hard to imagine it was the scene of this crime.

And again, how would this ambush be set up? There is no continuous direct drive from the Plaza along the walk route. You could indeed sit on Faulkner Place (there was a bank there at the time) and wait, but how you would you know they would walk that way?

Dogs searched the whole Drumm/McComas route, as well as the main alternate route (McComas/Jennings) a few days after the abduction. Although very high winds may have made detection impossible, they found no trace of the girls anywhere.

I don't think Mann is a fraud (and there have been many frauds in this case), but he could be remembering the wrong day, or misidentified the girls (why would he know and be waving to two girls that age, living half a mile away?) If Mann is correct, whatever happened was an astounding criminal feat. If he is mistaken, I think they were abducted from the Plaza (I think both the Lyon family and the police lean that way). Either way, I think Coffey is the prime suspect.

 

[ShurlT]

Thanks, Thrasher, it's always helpful when information comes from someone who lived in the area at the time and still lives there because MapQuest aerial views don't show what things looked like in 1975 nor what they look like from the ground...now...or back then. From the air it looks like there might have been a couple of blind spots between houses and where trees are now but what did that exact space look like in 1975 would be the question and maybe it still didn't supply enough cover for someone to pull up and convince the girls to get into a vehicle.

Whoever got them into their car came up with some kind of ruse, though. I've recently recalled that after that abduction people jumped in to bring parents up to date on safety measures to protect their children. One of the ruses no one had heard of was for an abductor to say to a child, "My puppy went into the bushes right here, can you help me find my puppy?"

I was amazed that people were so cleaver as to be able to come up with an idea they knew would work with a child and in this example shown on the news, it was a woman asking the child for help.

 

[Richard]

Many good comments and thoughts by all the past few days.

The most likely place for an abductor to have taken the girls would have been right in the parking lot of Wheaton Plaza, for several reasons.

- First would be the fact that nobody is really watching for anything out of the ordinary - as might be the case in the residential neighborhood where neighbors watch out for each other.

- Second, It would be easier to see the girls leaving the mall.

- Third, the escape routes are much easier to access.

- Fourth, the need for a lot of advance preparation and planning regarding timing, possibility of being seen, being too close to the girls' house, etc are eliminated if the abduction took place in the parking lot.

The big problem with this is actually the reported Drumm/Devin sightings. IF the witnesses are remembering the right date and time, and IF they actually knew the girls, - then it places them OUTSIDE the parking lot and on the path home. Trying to fit those facts to the scenario requires a combination of timing, calculation, and just plain luck. And the perpetrator might have had ALL of that on his side if he intercepted them in the housing area.

I may have misstated the name of the Road that bounds Wheaton Plaza on the North, but there is and was in 1975 an exit there in the Northwest corner of the parking lot. A few hundred feet further west along that road, is Drumm Ave. which runs South and then turns West just before Devin. I have been to that area several times and I have a Map of the area made in 1975. It is pretty much the same in regard to roads.

As has been stated, Drumm continued on a short distance to where it is interrupted by some posts and only foot traffic is allowed until Drumm again becomes a paved road which continues on to Plyers Mill Road. The girls MIGHT have taken that route and then turned left on Plyers Mill Road for one block to their house.

Most believe that the girls instead would have gone west on Drumm, passing Devin on their right and then turned left onto McComas. They could have then gone to Jennings and turned right on it to get to their house. BUT this would have required some extra walking. It is more likely that as soon as they turned onto McComas, they turned right onto a long footpath through a wooded area between Drumm and Jennings, coming out of that woods very near their house.

SO... there were a number of possible variables even in that short walk home from the Mall.

I am inclined to believe that this was an abduction of opportunity in which the perpetrator planned only his initial and subsequent contact with the girls and that he relied upon circumstances, boldness, an outgoing personality, a line of BS, and a good deal of Luck to carry it out.

I think that the officially unidentified suspect "TRM" was the abductor and that he acted alone. It is also my opinion that he had done this many times before and many times afterward. He had most likely been the same guy seen on other occasions and at other Maryland shopping centers practicing and waiting for the right victim(s) and opportunity. The perpetrator was probably ALWAYS on the lookout for victims, even when not planning a particular crime.

Montgomery County Police did, in fact, look up every known pervert and sex offender in the area and spoke with many people about what they had seen or heard. The fact that they could not turn up any viable suspects at the time and the fact - as so many have pointed out - that this was a rare and unheard of occurrance (a daylight stranger abduction) for Montgomery County would point to the likelyhood of the perpetrator being new in town and unknown to police and populace.

The topic area of Suspects and Persons of Interest mentions a number of possible candidates as a possible TRM/abductor. Of those, Fred Howard Coffey, Jr. is possibly the strongest choice. Where ever Fred went, children and young women seemed to disappear.

Regarding Fred Coffey's job specialty in the Navy, there seems to be some conflicting information. He was given an Honorable Discharge in September 1975 as a First Class Petty Officer (rank of E6) after serving 12 years (three full four-year enlistments). Coffey had served a tour in Viet Nam, but I do not know what unit or ship he was assigned to at the time.

I have seen the court summary which lists the Operations and Intellligence rating, but I have also heard that he may have worked in the Medical field, possibly as a Navy Corpsman. A sailor by the name of Fred Coffey served on a Navy ship as an Optical Equipment repairman, but this could have been someone by the same name. Coffey joined a North Carolina National Guard unit in late 1975, but I have not seen any information regarding the MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) that he held.

 

[ShurlT]

My guess is...if you haven't posted on this site for an extended period of time you go into some kind of holding pattern whereby when you come back and begin posting again...if your information is too long you get wiped out and told you're not signed in when you are signed in and are sent to a sign in area. By that time, all the long information you typed raw from your brain has been sent into cyberspace and it's all just too much for the brain to try to remember and do it all over again.

Having said that...Coffey's military history above was taken from NC Departmet of Corrections website and follows:

RECORD 1 OF 2

Fred Howard Coffey, Jr, offender NC doc ID Number: 0081135, start year (employment): 1962; employed for 12 YEARS, 04 MONTHS; inmate's primary duty code: OPRATIONS AND INTELLIGENCE AS; military branch served in code: NAVY; highes military rank code: JR. ENLISTED; enlistment city: BRISTOL; enlistment state: VIRGINIA; military disharge type code: HONORABLE; us service in war zone code: SE ASIA; discharge year: 1974; discharge city: VIRGINIA BEACH; discharge state: VIRGINIA.

RECORD 2 OF 2

Offender NC doc ID Number: 0081135, start year (employment): 1975