SIDEBAR #7- Arias/Alexander forum

[DebinGA]

I don't think jurors are expected to plug case facts into a formula and spit out a uniform answer re sentencing. There's no balance scale in the jury room into which reason for "life" and "death" cards can be thrown and whichever side of the scale with the most cards wins. Each juror gets one vote based on their perception of the facts, and I bet no two would agree on the same set of facts and no others.

 

[kscornfed]

And maybe the two sides shouldn't try so hard to confuse them! For example, during closings in mitigation...Juan said there is a chance CMJA could be given life WITH parole by JSS...and then Wilmott went back and said, no no, that's not true, don't believe Juan...there is NO LAW in the books for parole. So which is true?? Then in the part of the instructions that was in done later when JSS went back and read them instructions on that part again (no one in courtroom except judge, counsel, and jurors, but it was filmed so it's on youtube)....then Wilmott said oh yeah ok CMJA could get parole, but it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY.

That's just one example where I feel both sides were intentionally trying to confuse the jurors (more JW than Juan, but in this case both were muddying the waters).

So I think the lawyers also need to be proper in the way they approach the juors, and if there's confusion, then the judge needs to step in because that's not right to just leave them confused like that!

BBM. this is the responsibility of the JUDGE. both sides said things that were objected to----MISSTATES THE LAW. as i recall, the judge overruled BOTH. so where's the clarification? it should come from HER. the law should not be MYSTERIOUS to the very people making the final decision.

 

[TXProfessional]

Good morning friends!!! :seeya:

I don't know if this link has been posted, if it has sorry for the repeat. Susan1122 (OP) posted this link to a letter written by Tanisha's husband Harold.

https://www.facebook.com/Justice4Travis/posts/482360735173407

 

[popsicle]

I've made this exact comment several times as well. Even when fighting for his life, he didn't hurt her!!!!!

This is why her abuse claims are so abhorrent!!!

He didn't have the chance to hurt her. It was so fast and unexpected that he was barely able to attempt to defend himself. imo (It being incapacitating him)

 

[Angelina Frost]

I was listening to one interview where Marilou Allen-Coogan said some jurors believed verbal abuse, some didn't and some believed physical abuse and some didn't..............
wow, stunned some believed physical.

Will look for video, I think it was on HLN.....

BBM

I've been staring at that for two minutes and it isn't making a lick of sense. I 100% disagree that JA was emotionally abused, but suspension of disbelief for the 4 who might have, based on a couple of texts. They bought that plus ALV's spin. Fine.

To make a leap from that to physical abuse, with the absence of any medical reports, police reports, photographs, witnesses or anything else is truly scary. I can go into court and claim I have a family of rogue unicorns in my backyard, and 1/3 of a jury panel could believe it. Wow.

The more I read about this I truly wonder if it's worth it for the State to retry. If you have upwards of 1/3 of a jury believing physical abuse based on literally NO evidence, there is nothing you can do.

 

[aa9511]

I can only come up with three so far who may have voted for LIFE.

Juror #1 "Church Lady"
We know there is at least one women who voted for life. Three of the other four women (3, 6 and 16) were seen as the only jurors sobbing right after it was announced in court that the jury could not reach unanimity. We know #6 and #16 voted for the DP.

Juror #9 "Willie"
This choice is based on an unconfirmed rumor on Twitter. Someone tweeted that a friend of his said that he voted for (or would vote for) life.

Juror #18 "The Artist"
I think almost everyone agrees the foreperson definitely voted for life.

So who is the 4th juror?

It could be the only woman left other than #1 -- namely Juror #3, as you suggested. Since 4 and 14 are older men like the foreman, your guess is as good as any I can come up with.

As for your other possibility (Juror #12), I defer to you because I have no opinion on "Neil". Some WSers were concerned about him initially, but became less so as the trial progressed.

I think the other one was Juror 3. Houswife, b/c juror 6 said there was no gender "trending." If it was 3 men, 1 woman, I would think she would say, there were more men than women. And there are only 2 women possible, so we KNOW that it was not more women than men voting life. So that leads me to think the split was 2 men, 2 women.

I have 1, 3, 18 and ???? voting for life. Don't know thte 4th person.

 

[sacrablue]

i just don't buy that, but whatever. everyone else knew it was vital that they be there. i just find it hard to believe sandy wasn't told the same, exact thing.

Communication is so important and I have seen more then one instance of lack of in this case.
I think JM came off as more sparring with the defense in the final phase as well as telling the jury what to think. More time and understanding of the law was needed.

 

[DebinGA]

This story makes me cry every time I see it. A little 4 year old boy told he's going to see Santa Claus but instead is taken to a remote area by 2 male friends of the mothers and shot multiple times in the head. Mommy is implicated by the men who say it was her decision to have her son killed for insurance money. Now because of the crooked cop who handled her case, she will walk free I don't believe for a minute she is innocent. Yes, the cop was crooked but I strongly feel she did arrange for her son to be killed. How cruel to tell a little boy he is going to see Santa and instead the poor little guy ends up killed. I hope somehow she is re-tried and that the conviction sticks. She should not be leaving death row :/ That little boy never had a chance and the cruelty factor in his murder is mind blowing. Debra does not deserve to walk free. She is guilty as sin IMO. Sorry OT but this case really gets to me

IIRC, neither of the two men implicated Debra Milke at trial. That is very odd if she instigated the whole thing. Also odd is the cop, the only witness, destroying his notes of the interview with her that no one else ever saw or heard because it wasn't taped. If she's guilty, at least her spending over 20 yrs. on Perryville' death row was well-deserved.

 

[bettybaby00]

The only way I can see JA getting away with no injuries is the gun first theory.

I can understand your thinking..however, for me, the forensics tell a different story, and I don't give a blankity blank what the DT says, dr. Horn didn't lie, or "change his story." The fact that he made an off hand comment PRIOR to doing/completing and writing up his report dose not equate to a change in "his story."

The way I envision it, he was stabbed in the heart, possibly the other wounds to his chest, and was stunned into disbelief, shock. once she began attacking him from behind his ability to fight back was reduced. Moreover, it seems evident his automatic response was flight rather than fight and given that it all happened so damn fast he never stood a chance.

Im not trying to open up the whole which came first issue...This is all IMO, MOO and all that

 

[oceanblueeyes]

He didn't have the chance to hurt her. It was so fast and unexpected that he was barely able to attempt to defend himself. imo (It being incapacitating him)

I'm not sure Travis had it in him to hurt Jodi even if he had a chance. Travis had been taught growing up that even when a female (mother) beats him he did not strike back. He learned to endure the pain and suffering his mother inflicted upon him.

IMO

 

[BlackLabLover]

The only way I can see JA getting away with no injuries is the gun first theory.

Not me.

If I was stabbed in the heart, my first instinct would be to:

(a) get the Hell away from the person stabbing me. (Travis tried to do this as evidenced by his blood and spit in the sink, and crawling down the hall towards his bedroom door)

OR

(b) trying to get the knife away from the person stabbing me. (Travis had several deep defensive wounds on his hands..he clearly tried to grab at the knife)

I dunno, if I feel myself slipping away after a stab wound to my vena cava, the last think I'm worrying about is trying to hit or wound my assailant. My desire would be to live. :twocents:

 

[Maryann123]

:seeya:
When one is transporting kitchen knives, it is also normal to have them packed in a box of books.
:floorlaugh:
Also, when one is transporting a gun, one should assume the best place for it would be taped to the engine of car.
:floorlaugh:

I see me having fun with this.

While you made some funny points, (I was LMAO) one thing jumped off the page at me. Remember the duct tape found at the crime scene? I wonder if the duct tape used to tape the second gun under the hood of the rental car was ever compared to the crime scene duct tape? I can't help but wonder if she didn't tape that one under the hood too, and that's the reason it was never connected to the scene. To me, this would be a useful piece of evidence to show she absolutely was going on another killing trip. Wouldn't that make a new juror lean towards the DP? Yes, she had only killed the one time, but she was on her way to commit another murder.

 

[aa9511]

When I was on a jury many of the jurors believed that we could not use circumstantial evidence to help us decide on guilt. Finally we sent that question to the judge. He responded by telling us to read the jury instructions. We had spent hours doing just that, and still they could not be convinced.

OMG that is crazy!! I'm sure the defense lawyer told him he can't tell the jury how to interpret the evidence, or somethign along those lines. I have a feeling JSS would have answered that differently.

 

[TXProfessional]

I was listening to one interview where Marilou Allen-Coogan said some jurors believed verbal abuse, some didn't and some believed physical abuse and some didn't..............
wow, stunned some believed physical.

Will look for video, I think it was on HLN.....

Kpm, I just can't keep up with the juror interviews...thought I had seen all of them. Thanks for this.

 

[fifteen89]

How did he get chosen as foreman? How did they get a murder 1 conviction with this foreman and what the heck happened between M1 and penalty? I must have watched to many movies because somebody had a change of heart/mind!

I wonder the same thing. Why not vote that it wasn't eligible for the DP so it would be off the table and there wouldn't be an issue in the penalty phase? Unless Mr. Foreman was completely outnumbered on that one and just went along with that vote.

 

[SweetT]

The only way I can see JA getting away with no injuries is the gun first theory.

I have been back and forth on this one too. It would make sense that she shot him first and with him being seated in the shower and her using her ambidextrious left hand, the trajectory and position of that gun shot wound would correlate to this being first. This would then of course be enough to have him confused/dazed and trying to get out of that bathroom to safety asap. But she would have had to have that knife within seconds, so it was either already hidden in the bathroom or she also was carrying it at that time. He stumbled around, she stabbed him. When she realized he was going down that hall and could possibly make it out of that room or even possibly to safety she then slashed his throat. This is very possible and like I said, I have been back and forth on this issue. Either way it was a heinous crime and she had no intention of letting him get out alive.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Not me.

If I was stabbed in the heart, my first instinct would be to:

(a) get the Hell away from the person stabbing me. (Travis tried to do this as evidenced by his blood and spit in the sink, and crawling down the hall towards his bedroom door)

OR

(b) trying to get the knife away from the person stabbing me. (Travis had several deep defensive wounds on his hands..he clearly tried to grab at the knife)

I dunno, if I feel myself slipping away after a stab wound to my vena cava, the last think I'm worrying about is trying to hit or wound my assailant. My desire would be to live. :twocents:

ITA!

Travis was in way too much pain/shock from the stab to the heart and losing blood and becoming weaker and weaker very quickly. He was just trying to get away from Jodi and he wasn't even strong enough to do that.

I am not even sure he tried to grab the knife. I think he put up his hands trying to shield some of the stabs and she slashed his hands instead.

IMO

 

[21merc7]

I'm with the shot first theory. Holding gun in one hand, camera in the other to get the photos. The stabs came later, when he is running down the hall to get away from her, then the slit throat.

Anyone who goes to that extent to kill someone, and the preplanned it, would most certainly do it again if they get angry enough, especially if they never got caught.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

IIRC, neither of the two men implicated Debra Milke at trial. That is very odd if she instigated the whole thing. Also odd is the cop, the only witness, destroying his notes of the interview with her that no one else ever saw or heard because it wasn't taped. If she's guilty, at least her spending over 20 yrs. on Perryville' death row was well-deserved.

I do believe this woman is totally guilty. I hope she is retried.

Why would two of her friends take her little boy out and murder him if it was not for her wanting them to?

Not every mother loves their child. Some think of them as burdens. Burdens they don't want to carry.

IMO

 

[RadarLuv]

Oh Lawd, Dr. Phil is one of the State lawyer's in the Zimmerman case.

Not watching, not watching, not watching lalalalalalalala! Where is a smilie with fingers in its ears??!