SIDEBAR #7- Arias/Alexander forum

[Linda7NJ]

My dog hogging up the patio furniture yesterday ...


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[Angelina Frost]

Totally agree with you about that silly show.

The entire defense was really premised on "Travis had it coming". Thus, star witness ALV. Revolting, but that's what they did. And it seems to have worked on a couple of jurors.

ITA.

If it worked on a couple of jurors here, it's seriously worrisome that it would work in a retrial. I just wonder how, or even IF JM can fight it if there are jurors unable to understand the defense team's manipulation.

From the GMA interview itself, juror #16 said "some of us believed physical abuse." Shocking to me that anyone could accept abuse as fact without a shred of corroboration.

 

[ElleElle]

I think Travis was so fed up with he just had to let it out in that text. And I did not think that seemed abusive. I thought it seemed that Travis was in emotional pain and expressing that jodi had been abusive to him! I never for one second believed Travis was physically abusive either.

I think Jodi used Travis for everything (money, sex, place to hang out, sleep, a car, a job). etc... She tried to use her sweet voice and so-called sex kitten looks, but behind the scenes was a woman who was constantly planning a way to get over him. I really don't think she even love(d) Travis, as she is incapable of love.

The moment he caught her in a tangled web of lies, she planned his murder. She treated this like a competition and could not let him win. :twocents:

 

[Observer in AZ]

Mods..

Is there a way we could maybe add a page at beginning of Media thread on CKJA interviews to include links to Juror interviews?

I've had a busy long weekend just happened to flip on HLN (habit?) saw tonight Jurors are going to be speaking out on JVM, NG & Dr D?? Wasn't sure if any jurors had granted interviews elsewhere over weekend or upcoming 20/20 dateline or 48hrs etc.

Be nice to be able to have links to various interviews so I can catch them when I have time.. etc

thanks

 

[pip]

What does women becoming breadwinners have to do with them abusing and murdering?

Power and control... Same as men.

 

[ElleElle]

Totally agree with you about that silly show.

The entire defense was really premised on "Travis had it coming". Thus, star witness ALV. Revolting, but that's what they did. And it seems to have worked on a couple of jurors.

imo, that show was a reason this trial turned into a circus.

 

[mck16]

Re; Juror 16 on GMA saying some jurors believed verbal abuse, some believed emotional abuse, some believed physical abuse....AGHGHGHGHGHSHGH!!!!!!!!!!!!! And she says "some" as in meaning more than one??????? Omigosh...well I don't think it was Foreman b/c he specifcally stated verbal and emotional abuse. It must have been some of the others who voted life.

So I guess the only requirement for claiming abuse in a criminal trial is just yelling out "ABUSE, ABUSE, ABUSE, ABUSE, ABUSE" in as many different ways as you can! OMG! I am sooooooo sad. Could they not see that the defense had nothing else to work with?? OF COURSE they would pull out the abuse card - sheesh they are giving CMJA and the defense too much benefit of the doubt in dealing with them honestly.

I think some of the jurors just needed answers as to "WHY" she did it, and they were willing to go out on a limb to get those answers. That is the only justification I can find.

I personally could not imagine what the DT could come up with to use as a defense for JA. I was shocked as I know most were that they used Abuse as a defense. But, then we all knew all the sordid details of what really went on. But, in the post above re: Juror 16, if they believed she was abused physically, mentally, and emotionally, why did they find her guilty of premeditated murder. Thank goodness they did. \

I think it all boiled down to they couldn't go with the death penalty. In JW's words, they couldn't kill her. Now the next obstacle, what can JM present to the new jury to convince them she needs the death penalty. I wish and I believe everything should be admissable and the jury should know all the details. Don't guess that will ever happen though. JMO

 

[thefragile7393]

Oceanblue, I am so glad to see someone else feels as strongly as I do about this issue. Sometimes I feel like one amongst many when I conduct trainings on this issue...you might be surprised to know the LE is often the hardest sell, especially regarding female stalking and perpetration of DV!!!

That does not surprise me in the least....considering many are still hard sells on sexual assault, same sex DV, and male perp DV on women. Many...but definitely not all are like this

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[SyraKelly]

It may be & this is just speculation on my part

They believed Travis abused her before the killing

But not on that day

So they did not believe her self defense claim in killing him

 

[rose222]

Hello all. I haven't been on this thread today and no way I can catch up just now. I just want to write down my thoughts on the 'relationship' between Travis and JA. It feels like I'm the only one in the whole world who thinks like this

By the way, I'm not trying to make Travis into a saint just because he was brutally murdered. Obviously he did not deserve it he had his good and bad sides as we all do.

Having said that, I believe (from everything I've read and seen) that Travis treated JA better than most people in her life. (I think Brewer was very nice to her as well). He met her. Intense sparks very quickly on both sides. Travis saw someone who was very attractive (back then), articulate, attentive to him etc. JA, of course, found a goldmine. She had never met someone who had it all: youth, good looks, success, religion (not that she was sincerely interested but Mormons are a good prey). Throughout their time together Travis shared his food and apartment (at times) with her, took her on long trips, tried teaching her about the Mormon faith, complemented her frequently on her looks and all (I think he wanted to help her self-esteem which was high anyway)

I think Travis soon realized that JA was superficial and had a very hollow personality. Nevertheless the physical attraction was strong. I believe he was very clear about his feelings for her. Her told he and she darn well knew it. Of course, she wouldn't let go. I don't believe Travis was the one who kept their sexual relationship going. She did to use as an excuse to keep in touch with him. I can imagine JA saying a million times “Travis, we know we’re made for each other even physically. It’s so sexy when you....’ blah, blah, blah. And Travis saying “Ok, JA, we can have sex, you know I think you’re so hot but I don’t think we should ever get back together” And so it continued. I think he treated her very well. Almost no one else really cared about her.

I don’t believe he ever called her names unless she was snooping, stalking, lying about those things etc. Serious offences! Most people would have kicked JA out of their lives but Travis was much too innocent and naïve. I don’t think he had it in him to do that. The closest he came was in May of 2008 but we have evidence that JA (I believe uninvited) visited him on June 3,2008. Innocent Travis. Even if Travis had kicked her out of his life for good she would have still murdered him. She was much too obsessed with the once in a lifetime goldmine that she had found. There are many men who are young, rich, successful but to also be naïve? That’s a rare combination of desirable qualities.
Travis died on June 4, 2008 knowing he had been so kind and good to Jodi. If he had even a moment to think about why she stabbing him I think the only feeling he would have had is one of confusion. ‘WHY ME?’

 

[ElleElle]

We obviously have some issues and problems with our justice system. I think it is hard for normal people to be able to comprehend an evil messed up person, we try to apply logic to things..like how a normal person would behave when these people are clearly not normal. Would it be better for a jury of peers to be maybe premeditated killers themselves? I mean they could relate better right? Instead of normal law abiding citizens deciding their fate.

This is true. Some people have never experienced a true exposed psychopath, and aren't addicted to true crime.

Anywhoo, Jodi is probably a tiny, meek girl in real. But, you should not base a verdict on looks, personalities (judging a book by it's cover) essentially. Some jurors put emotion into this and that is that's the issue here.

The facts are simple: the killing was brutal, cruel, and Travis suffered. Secondly, it was premeditated.

 

[SweetT]

I think Jodi used Travis for everything (money, sex, place to hang out, sleep, a car, a job). etc... She tried to use her sweet voice and so-called sex kitten looks, but behind the scenes was a woman who was constantly planning a way to get over him. I really don't think she even love(d) Travis, as she is incapable of love.

The moment he caught her in a tangled web of lies, she planned his murder. She treated this like a competition and could not let him win. :twocents:

I also got the feeling that to her this was some type of competition, from the murder to her defense excuse...like it was and is a competition between her and Travis.

 

[Colt46]

Either they weren't paying attention to some parts, or Juan (and I LOVE Juan Martinez) wasn't clear enough for them on the following:

I will preface with this. If Arias lied about even one of the "physical abuse" events, then its safe to assume she lied about them all. Well, it can be proven that she lied about the physical abuse of January 22, 08. Her story on the stand about that "fight"...was that it started over her not loaning Travis money. ($200 iirc). However, the text messages from Jan 22 show Arias asking Travis if HE deposited $ into her account. He says "yes". She then says she "will make it up" to him. Juan asked her under cross exam if this was a loan. (given that she said she'd make it up to him, she had to cop to it being a loan and said "yes"). She couldn't recall how much it was.

Now...it doesn't take a rocket scientist, imo. He is not going to deposit a loan of money into her account ..and then try to borrow money back on the same darn day! He wasn't mad over her not loaning him money..therefore there was no fight and therefore, no broken finger.

..she lied about the fight. If she lied about *that fight, then she lied about the other instances, imo.

Did some of the jury miss this important detail? I waited for Juan to reiterate this, but he never did. I'd wondered if the bank witness who was precluded from testifying was going to speak to this. Maybe thats why it wasn't brought up again?[/QUOTE]

BBM

Jumping off your post here, Travis accused JA of 'scamming' him in his May 26 rant. That leads to all sorts of speculation: Was she hacking into his bank accts. and transferring $$$ to her acct.? Was Travis giving her advances from his PPL acct. for commissions she never earned? Was she forging his signature on checks? Why was the Chase bank employee precluded from testifying?

One thing for sure - we know the killer was broke! According to C. Hughes, she worked very little while she was in Mesa. She even had a stint cleaning the house of one of Travis's friends. No doubt she snooped through his personal belongings to see if there was anything worth her while. She was constantly on the prowl - looking for Mr. Good-Bar. She wasn't paying rent; Travis supplied her with groceries; gave her a BMW to drive; and paid her to clean his house to help her out. What more could a man do for a woman he didn't want to marry??? Travis was sooo good to this killer!

I find it so incredibly ironic that a few jurors interpretted Travis's May 26 rant as 'abusive'!!! It was the greatest indictment against this killer - ever. Travis was speaking from the grave. If anyone deserves death - it's this cunning killer. What she did to Travis AFTER butchering him, is equally as bad as the murder itself. She is rotten to the core and I hope she rots in h*ll!!!

 

[ElleElle]

What does women becoming breadwinners have to do with them abusing and murdering?

Power and control.

 

[thefragile7393]

Here's my bengal boy:

I covet!

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[thefragile7393]

We obviously have some issues and problems with our justice system. I think it is hard for normal people to be able to comprehend an evil messed up person, we try to apply logic to things..like how a normal person would behave when these people are clearly not normal. Would it be better for a jury of peers to be maybe premeditated killers themselves? I mean they could relate better right? Instead of normal law abiding citizens deciding their fate.

I'm always gunning for professional jurors who are educated in law and how it works.

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[Celeskitty]

I think Jodi used Travis for everything (money, sex, place to hang out, sleep, a car, a job). etc... She tried to use her sweet voice and so-called sex kitten looks, but behind the scenes was a woman who was constantly planning a way to get over him. I really don't think she even love(d) Travis, as she is incapable of love.

The moment he caught her in a tangled web of lies, she planned his murder. She treated this like a competition and could not let him win. :twocents:

I think the notion of "love" is an alien concept to her. I wrote about this a while ago. She talks constantly of "universal love". She understands what love is and should be, but she can only mimic what it is. She says she has a "universal love" for everyone (even Travis), but I don't think she knows what that means. But that never stopped her before about talking about things she doesn't understand.

My opinions, etc., etc.

 

[OEJ]

**My apologies for being way behind and there for this post likely landing amidst unrelated topic and discussions**

<Respectfully snipped by me>

Perhaps you are right, ElleElle, in your saying that it actually was both who each brought out the worst of the other in regard to both Travis and Jodi..but I truly feel and believe that the evidence shows that the "ugly" or the "worst" of Jodi was absolutely there all along and did not just appear whenever Travis entered her life.. IMO the narcissistic and psychopathic traits of Jodi were very much a part of who and what she was long before Travis ever had the misfortune of crossing paths with her in Nevada, 2006.. My opinion is that we have seen proof positive evidence that not only were the narcissistic and psychopathic traits already present in Jodi ..so, too were the narcissistic and psychopathic traits being acted out as well..all long PRIOR to Travis Alexander's having entered the picture..

The pattern was already well established IMO.. The same exact pattern that would once again be established by Jodi in her "relationship" with Travis, just as the pattern had played itself out in relationships PRIOR to Travis.. IMO as with any type of malignant behaviors they all escalate with time..with each development of the pattern we see the escalation that Jodi is becoming more sinister, more determined, more bold in her developing of the pattern of behavior and actions that were played out in her intimate relationships..

The evidence of the pattern having long since been established waaaaay prior to Travis entering the picture even came into the courtroom as well.. The pattern that Juan IMO successfully established wrt Jodi's history of inappropriate, obsessive, stalking, and boundaryLESS actions and behaviors that she had already long since established prior to Travis Alexander ever coming into the picture..

So, for me that is why I do not necessarily see it as they each brought out the worst IN EACH OTHER(Jodi and Travis)...In my very strong opinion the worst was already long since alive and well in Jodi Arias and had been building and escalating for a long period of time before Jodi even knew that a Travis Alexander even existed..

I do NOT at all see this a the perfect storm, so to speak, as in all of the variables had to be present and those specific variables were each necessary for the perfect storm to come together resulting in the deadly end result... IMO that is NOT the case here...

IMO Travis Alexander is not and does not represent any of the absolute necessary variables that must be in place for the perfect storm to have been created.. Travis is not the catalyst for which was needed in order to have the deadly end result.. Travis IMO is the generic factor that can easily be interchanged with another individual.. While it is Jodi and Jodi's very much escalating narcissistic and psychopathic behaviors and actions that are NON variables..it is Jodi and Jodi's actions and behaviors that CANNOT be substituted or interchanged for they are the catalyst of the entire deadly end result.. It is Jodi and Jodi's escalating behaviors and actions that are the deadly mix, here..and when the already dangerous mix of who and what Jodi is, is then combined with any number of interchangeable variables..it is that combination that leads to the fatal end result ..

IMO Travis did not create, nor did he even "bring out" those already present extremely pathological traits in Jodi Arias..they were already present and they were already lethal and they absolutely would have lead to a fatal end result with SOMEONE..if it had not been Travis Alexander, I have zero doubt that it just would have been SOMEONE else whose fate ended in death at the hands of Jodi..

Without doubt that very dangerous and lethal pathology was already long since present in Jodi Arias way before Travis Alexander ever had the misfortune of crossing paths with her.. Take away that unfortunate crossing of paths with Travis and IMO the fatal end result would still be the same, it just being someone else who would be dead by the hand of Jodi.

All moo of course

I believe this is true especially in light of what we know about stalkers in the first place. The probable truth is that Arias began her stalking behavior with Travis when they first met. She had already devalued Darryl Brewer in her own mind and the overvaluation of Travis had begun. This was a lifelong pattern of hers of putting people on a pedestal until they did not live up to expectation and then considering them beneath contempt.

In all probability, Jodi began asking probing questions about what Travis was doing and who he was doing it with right away. She was probably checking and rechecking his online presence multiple times a day, checking his phone and computer any chance she got, snooping deeply through all of his things, and starting arguments continually about any real or imagined inconsistencies in Travis' words or actions. He was under constant surveillance in one way or another the entire time.

The truth is, I believe, that Travis wouldn't necessarily have had to have sex with Jodi in order to pick her up as a stalker. He could have been a mere acquaintance and nothing more. It happens all the time due to the pathology of the stalker and is never the fault of the victim.

 

[LambChop]

I personally could not imagine what the DT could come up with to use as a defense for JA. I was shocked as I know most were that they used Abuse as a defense. But, then we all knew all the sordid details of what really went on. But, in the post above re: Juror 16, if they believed she was abused physically, mentally, and emotionally, why did they find her guilty of premeditated murder. Thank goodness they did. \

I think it all boiled down to they couldn't go with the death penalty. In JW's words, they couldn't kill her. Now the next obstacle, what can JM present to the new jury to convince them she needs the death penalty. I wish and I believe everything should be admissable and the jury should know all the details. Don't guess that will ever happen though. JMO

I'd say excepts from those interviews she gave recently. When she describes the dream she had about Travis being in the cell with her, she was beaming. That was just not the type of reaction you would expect to see from the dream she was describing. Reading into her reaction she appears to feel justified in killing Travis because now he, too, will have to pay and she appears to be quite proud of that fact.

 

[katiedid2]

imo, Jodi was not physically abused by Travis. And, all the so-called emotional abuse (which is a loose term imo); Jodi brought on herself, because she could of simply walked away.

We should count the mistrial as a blessing in disguise. Hopefully the next set of jurors will be the right ones.