Sidebar Discussion

[bayouland]

I think it is because of the state of decomp poor little Caylee was in by that time.

I have no other way to describe it other than Casey would have taken half of Caylee's face away if she tried to remove it, parts of Caylee's body were probably already getting very messy, I believe she put Caylee in the several bags after she had been in the trunk for a while in that VERY HOT HOT florida sun/weather, Casey had no idea about how the decomp would progress, and the bags were because that is how she had to transport her because of the decomp. The tape may have already started to slide down as part of Caylee's face had been in stages of decomp already. To remove the tape at that time would have been more than even Casey could deal with. Too messy and she wanted to just get rid of her as quickly as possible, Caylee's body was probably difficult to deal with due to decomp.

the smell was probably horrendous and Casey had to smell that smell for quite a while, wonder if she can still smell it in her head at times today?

I feel bad even typing that. MOO, IMO. etc.

I agree with your reason for not removing the tape if the tape was the murder weapon. FCA is intelligent (remember JA told us) but she must have been horrified at the smell and condition of the body in such a short time.

In my opinion the duct tape can only be explained by two reasons.

1. It was the murder weapon.
2. It was not the murder weapon and was placed on Caylee soon after death to make it look like a kidnapping.

Either way, most of us agree that it was murder.

I have flip flopped around but I think it is #2.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Actually, there are only two ways to interpret a fact. The right way and the wrong way :crazy: You either approach truth with your interpretation of the facts, or you retreat from it. The "truth" stands on it's own, it is more important than "opinion".

And no, everyone does not interpret facts differently. They either recognize them as facts or refuse to.

What you are describing is an uber relativity that ends up dissolving logic into meaninglessness.

Do you agree that there is a "truth" that sits apart from individual opinion? There is still a Flat Earth Society. They have to discredit enormous quantities of fact to maintain their "opinion" that the Earth is a pancake. They certainly have a right to believe what they do. But don't confuse that "right to opinion" with "an opinion that is right". That's all I'm trying to say

Fact
The thermometer reads 84 degrees.

If there are only two ways to interpret a fact, a right way, and a wrong way, which of the following interpretations is right and which is wrong?

1. An Alaskan reads the thermometer and says, it's 84 degrees, my goodness, it is hot as He!! out here.
2. An African reads the thermometer and says, it's 84 degrees, I love it when its so nice and cool.
3. An Arizonan reads the thermometer and says, it's 84 degrees, what a nice mild temperature.

Fact
Area A was underwater at some point due to Tropical storm Faye. Animals manipulated the skeletal remains. RK manipulated the skull. The duct tape was attached to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull.

1. An Alaskan reads that the duct tape was attached to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull and says, my goodness, the duct tape must have been wrapped around the skull.
2. An African reads that the duct tape was attached to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull and says, the duct tape could have come from anywhere.
3. An Arizonan reads that the duct tape was attached to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull and says, I have a strong belief that the duct tape at one point in time was placed on the mouth and nose area, but it is possible, because of manipulation by animals, RK, and a tropical storm there could be another explanation.

 

[Baznme]

Fact
The thermometer reads 84 degrees.

If there are only two ways to interpret a fact, a right way, and a wrong way, which of the following interpretations is right and which is wrong?

1. An Alaskan reads the thermometer and says, it's 84 degrees, my goodness, it is hot as He!! out here.
2. An African reads the thermometer and says, it's 84 degrees, I love it when its so nice and cool.
3. An Arizonan reads the thermometer and says, it's 84 degrees, what a nice mild temperature.

Fact
Area A was underwater at some point due to Tropical storm Faye. Animals manipulated the skeletal remains. RK manipulated the skull. The duct tape was attached to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull.

1. An Alaskan reads that the duct tape was attached to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull and says, my goodness, the duct tape must have been wrapped around the skull.
2. An African reads that the duct tape was attached to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull and says, the duct tape could have come from anywhere.
3. An Arizonan reads that the duct tape was attached to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull and says, I have a strong belief that the duct tape at one point in time was placed on the mouth and nose area, but it is possible, because of manipulation by animals, RK, and a tropical storm there could be another explanation.

Fact: The only person that knew that Caylee was missing for 31 days was Casey, duct tape, hair mass, skeletal remains disturbed, RK disturbed, Alaskan, African or Arizonan, all points back to that one absolute known fact. The dirty details don't change that.

 

[lauriej]

Fact
Area A was underwater at some point due to Tropical storm Faye. Animals manipulated the skeletal remains. RK manipulated the skull. The duct tape was attached to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull.

..the duct tape wasn't "in the vicinity" of the skull, it was attached to it.

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19802034.pdf

..autopsy report:

"Several overlapping pieces of duct tape, over the anterior portion of the lower skull, including mandible and a portion of the maxilla.

Duct tape still attached to scalp hairs.

Mandible still in approximate anatomic position with no visible attached soft tissue beneath the duct tape.

Although there is no trauma evident on the skeleton, there is duct tape over the lower facial region still attached to head hair.

This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition, keeping the mandible in place."

 

[logicalgirl]

Actually no, smothering is not the way most mothers kill their children. Statistically mothers who kill their children do so in water.


http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/162/9/1578

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_n2619_v125/ai_18967468/

Despite the use of guns or knives in most murders, the filicidal women killed their children by using blunt objects, shaking them or hitting them with their hands, suffocation, arson, and drowning. "The method of the murders suggests that the murders mostly were the result of distorted reality or were unplanned, evolving from extreme levels of frustration, anger, and/or depression." McKee notes. "When women get to this point, they don't emotionally distance themselves from their children. The killing intimate."

This article seems to argue with the drowning statistic and I'd have to agree from my reading. And I was wrong about the number of deaths of children killed by their mothers in the USA per year - it is over 200 children a year.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

..the duct tape wasn't "in the vicinity" of the skull, it was attached to it.

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19802034.pdf

..autopsy report:

"Several overlapping pieces of duct tape, over the anterior portion of the lower skull, including mandible and a portion of the maxilla.

Duct tape still attached to scalp hairs.

Mandible still in approximate anatomic position with no visible attached soft tissue beneath the duct tape.

Although there is no trauma evident on the skeleton, there is duct tape over the lower facial region still attached to head hair.

This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition, keeping the mandible in place."

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUPDuYyf8U8"]Casey Anthony Juror Speaks Out - On The Record Fox News (Part 1) - YouTube[/ame]

Jury foreman talking about the duct tape, when asked by GVS if the duct tape was actually on the skull. At 3 minute mark.
It was, as far as on the skull, there was one area where it was connected, and that dealt with more the hair. It was not on actually part of the bone but it was right there in the vicinity of the nasal cavity and where the mouth would be.

 

[Concerned Papa]

Doesn't matter. Penalty phase or not, a quick guilty verdict would have been the easy way out and would have ended their involvement with this fiasco way way way faster.

Think about it: All of the zillions of people who have been calling them stupid and incompetent and worthless and hinky and immoral and all that other stuff would, instead, be singing their praises and bowing down before them. The jurors could go home and just leave this all behind them. But no... they did the right thing and came back with the verdict they thought was right, not the one they thought all of the armchair jurors would have handed in. They definitely did not take the easy way out.

BBM

I think taking the easy way out is PRECISELY what this jury did. In fact, Mz Jennifer Ford, couldn't wait to get her 15 minutes after the trial and tell us EXACTLY that.

Mz Ford told us:

Casey Anthony's claim that her 2-year-old daughter accidentally drowned and she lied for three years was more believable than the evidence the prosecution presented.

Then she said:

"I'm not saying I believe the defense," she said. "Obviously, it wasn't proven"

She even tells us:

Ford agreed that Anthony was a "pathological liar"

Despite admitting the defense offered NO proof of any sort, despite agreeing that the defendant was a PATHOLOGICAL LIAR, she found the defense's claim of "accidental drowning" to be more believable?:waitasec:

Why, you ask?

It's easier for me logically to get from point A to point B" via the defense argument.

As far as I'm concerned, that's the easy way out by definition.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey_anth...sick-stomach-guilty-verdict/story?id=14005609

 

[lauriej]

Jury foreman talking about the duct tape, when asked by GVS if the duct tape was actually on the skull. At 3 minute mark.

It was, as far as on the skull, there was one area where it was connected, and that dealt with more the hair. It was not on actually part of the bone but it was right there in the vicinity of the nasal cavity and where the mouth would be.

..ok, i see what you're saying-----i misunderstood your original post to mean the duct tape wasn't (anywhere) in the vicinity of the skull ( as in found a distance away.)

..it couldn't have still be 'stuck to' any of the skull bone, since the face it was originally attached to holding it on there- had completely disappeared.

..i do see that both dr.G and the jury foreman both agree that it's still there in the area of the nose/mouth and attached to hair---i would reasonably conclude then ( that before the tissue that used to be caylee's face decomposed ) that the tape had been ON the skull.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

No, it was impressive and convincing to a clear majority. A significant (in comparison) minority of observers are reluctant to connect the dots.

If a majority of people are convinced, then the evidence was quite impressive.

In general, when a majority of people reach a consensus, it is called Reality. There are historical incidents where very bad things were created by such a consensus (the Holocaust) based upon the wrong ideas. Thankfully, THOSE incidents are in the minority, in the great scheme of things, else we would not be crowding each other off the globe.

If a clear majority of people, including scientists practicing the scientific method, reach the conclusion that the Earth is round, then it probably is. There is something WRONG with the folks who continue to insist the world is flat. Something wrong with their thinking processes, that is.

I am just curious, before the world was known to be round, the majority of the people on earth believed it was flat, at that point in time, was there something wrong with the thinking processes of the minority of people who believed the earth was round?

 

[2goldfish]

I am just curious, before the world was known to be round, the majority of the people on earth believed it was flat, at that point in time, was there something wrong with the thinking processes of the minority of people who believed the earth was round?

this isnt a very good comparison to me, because actually it was quite commonly believed in scientific circles that the earth was round way back - from facts - it was the Church that childishly continued to insist otherwise....because there was something wrong with THEIR thinking process...in the face of facts contrary to what they thought...

 

[Aedrys]

Casey Anthony Juror Speaks Out - On The Record Fox News (Part 1) - YouTube

Jury foreman talking about the duct tape, when asked by GVS if the duct tape was actually on the skull. At 3 minute mark.
It was, as far as on the skull, there was one area where it was connected, and that dealt with more the hair. It was not on actually part of the bone but it was right there in the vicinity of the nasal cavity and where the mouth would be.

The mandible was still in it's anatomic position. That did not happen with the tape floating downstream or accidently attaching itself. The. SAME. Anatomic. Position. That cannot happen after death, and it surely can't happen from nature. It was on the skull, (the hair on is the dang skull too, so we need to quit splitting hairs here. It was on the skull on top of the hair). Duct tape doesn't stick to decomposing skin, not to wet skin either. Her skin had to be DRY for the application. There is no getting around, not even scientifically, that this duct tape was applied to keep her quiet and kill her. We have a whole thread that talks about this. Science doesn't lie. The tape doesn't lie. It was there. On her skull, covering her mouth and nose until it degraded away. The hair kept it there. The mandible was still in the same anatomic position. I can't say that enough. That is IMPOSSIBLE without the tape adhering to the skull.

This was no coverup, no accident, it was cold blooded murder. Just because some people choose to ignore the science and imagine a nicer story of Caylee's death doesn't make it true. The jury just couldn't face the reality of this case. They let their emotions wimp them out of making the right verdict. Not wanting to believe a mother could do that to her child doesn't make what actually happened not true. Follow the science. Really follow it. In this case, the science is truth, not emotions. Heck, even those who believed the world to be flat had to follow science and logic at some point and realize they were wrong.

 

[pcrum12]

..the duct tape wasn't "in the vicinity" of the skull, it was attached to it.

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19802034.pdf

..autopsy report:

"Several overlapping pieces of duct tape, over the anterior portion of the lower skull, including mandible and a portion of the maxilla.

Duct tape still attached to scalp hairs.

Mandible still in approximate anatomic position with no visible attached soft tissue beneath the duct tape.

Although there is no trauma evident on the skeleton, there is duct tape over the lower facial region still attached to head hair.

This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition, keeping the mandible in place."

I'm pretty sure it was only attached to the hair but laying over (not attached) to the skull

 

[LambChop]

I'm pretty sure it was only attached to the hair but laying over (not attached) to the skull

That is correct because it had originally been attached to the facial tissue which decomposed. That is the way I read the report. jmo

 

[pcrum12]

That is correct because it had originally been attached to the facial tissue which decomposed. That is the way I read the report. jmo

It can be inferred....but it was not proven. There was no proof that the tape had been over her mouth and or nose. And before I get the usual mandible in place, IMO there are other explainable reasons for that. All JMO.

 

[LambChop]

It can be inferred....but it was not proven. There was no proof that the tape had been over her mouth and or nose. And before I get the usual mandible in place, IMO there are other explainable reasons for that. All JMO.

Not according to Dr. G during her court testimony. No other reason to be there, other than Dr. Spitz's theory which was never proved and made no sense. LOL There is no other reason for it to be there when you consider what KC rented that evening to watch. I think I'll trust the experts. jmo

 

[PeteyGirl]

Fact
The thermometer reads 84 degrees.

If there are only two ways to interpret a fact, a right way, and a wrong way, which of the following interpretations is right and which is wrong?

1. An Alaskan reads the thermometer and says, it's 84 degrees, my goodness, it is hot as He!! out here.
2. An African reads the thermometer and says, it's 84 degrees, I love it when its so nice and cool.
3. An Arizonan reads the thermometer and says, it's 84 degrees, what a nice mild temperature.

A FACT is that it is 84 degrees.

What you THINK or OPINE about it does not CHANGE the FACT that it is 84 degrees (not shouting, just too lazy to use the italic function ).

Your Alaskan, African and Arizonian example above is a perfect example of why OPINION is more about the person having the opinion than the facts themselves.

None of the above are wrong, of course! But they ARE irrelevant, if one of them were to argue that it's really NOT 84 degrees just because they personally are not "hot".

 

[lauriej]

I'm pretty sure it was only attached to the hair but laying over (not attached) to the skull

..see above.

..i already posted again clarifying that since caylee's face was missing------(and that's the tissue that the duct tape was originally attached to) TO adhere it to her skull-----that yes, the tape was attached to the hair,and in the vicinity of her nose and mouth area.

..conclusion---(when her face was still present) the duct tape was slapped over it, covering her nose and mouth.

 

[Murphismo]

Fact
The thermometer reads 84 degrees.

If there are only two ways to interpret a fact, a right way, and a wrong way, which of the following interpretations is right and which is wrong?

1. An Alaskan reads the thermometer and says, it's 84 degrees, my goodness, it is hot as He!! out here.
2. An African reads the thermometer and says, it's 84 degrees, I love it when its so nice and cool.
3. An Arizonan reads the thermometer and says, it's 84 degrees, what a nice mild temperature.

Fact
Area A was underwater at some point due to Tropical storm Faye. Animals manipulated the skeletal remains. RK manipulated the skull. The duct tape was attached to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull.

1. An Alaskan reads that the duct tape was attached to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull and says, my goodness, the duct tape must have been wrapped around the skull.
2. An African reads that the duct tape was attached to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull and says, the duct tape could have come from anywhere.
3. An Arizonan reads that the duct tape was attached to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull and says, I have a strong belief that the duct tape at one point in time was placed on the mouth and nose area, but it is possible, because of manipulation by animals, RK, and a tropical storm there could be another explanation.

Peteygirl said "interpret" a fact, not state an "opinion" based on a fact.

Fact: it's 84 degrees. To say it's 85 is incorrect. The correct interpretation is actually 84 degrees. Whether or not we believe it's hot or cold is pure opinion.... MOO:twocents:

 

[Murphismo]

A FACT is that it is 84 degrees.

What you THINK or OPINE about it does not CHANGE the FACT that it is 84 degrees (not shouting, just too lazy to use the italic function ).

Your Alaskan, African and Arizonian example above is a perfect example of why OPINION is more about the person having the opinion than the facts themselves.

None of the above are wrong, of course! But they ARE irrelevant, if one of them were to argue that it's really NOT 84 degrees just because they personally are not "hot".

Jeepers Petey, I wrote my response before I read this.... Are we on the same page or WHAT sister????:great::woohoo:

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

this isnt a very good comparison to me, because actually it was quite commonly believed in scientific circles that the earth was round way back - from facts - it was the Church that childishly continued to insist otherwise....because there was something wrong with THEIR thinking process...in the face of facts contrary to what they thought...

OK. How about this one then. If you took a poll in 1960, and the poll said
Man will land on the moon before 1970
true
false
I bet the majority would have voted false, and yet, even though they were the majority, they would have been wrong.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be philisophical or preach religion or anything like that. I simply believe that something is not necessarily true just because the majority thinks its true. I will agree wholeheartedly, that usually when the majority believes something is true, it is true.

as always, my entire post is my opinion only.