Sidebar Discussion

[PeteyGirl]

I am just curious, before the world was known to be round, the majority of the people on earth believed it was flat, at that point in time, was there something wrong with the thinking processes of the minority of people who believed the earth was round?

Nope, they were right :rocker:

A very tiny minority believing something different than the vast, overwhelming majority can be right.

It's not about what people BELIEVE. It's about what the facts are. And, it's about the deductive process used by the believers that either diverts them from the truth or brings them closer. Barring having a spacecraft that could view the Earth from above, those who did believe the Earth was round were utilizing a superior set of facts and/or reasoning process.

What we have with the death of Caylee Anthony is a set of facts that do not include direct, visual inculpatory evidence of Casey killing her. Or a confession.

Instead, the state pieced the known facts together to accuse her of murdering or at least neglecting Caylee to death in some sudden way.

A sound reasoning process is NOT a matter of personal opinion. It ought to have very, very little contamination by personal agendas. Sound reasoning ought not to RESIST the most common explanations, in the absence of direct evidence. That's why we can infer that it snowed sometime while we were sleeping when we wake up and find snow on the ground.

In my view, to conclude that (with the evidence given) Casey Anthony was not responsible for the death of her daughter means a person must RESIST a set of common, predictable inferences. And replace the common, predictable inferences with . . . what? Some very "anything could have happened" type inferences. I perceive massive resistance to the idea that Caylee died the way a vast majority of children die. I do not personally understand this resistance, other than to conclude there are individual, personal reasons that hark back to the person resisting the obvious. Resisting the universal, resisting the most common, Occam's Razor explanation.

 

[PeteyGirl]

Jeepers Petey, I wrote my response before I read this.... Are we on the same page or WHAT sister????:great::woohoo:

Well, yes, we're on the same page. But it's even more than that. You and I are talking about how facts stand on their own and have nary a berry to do with what a person believes about them.

I *think* I perceive confusion about this, off and on.

 

[LambChop]

..see above.

..i already posted again clarifying that since caylee's face was missing------(and that's the tissue that the duct tape was originally attached to) TO adhere it to her skull-----that yes, the tape was attached to the hair,and in the vicinity of her nose and mouth area.

..conclusion---(when her face was still present) the duct tape was slapped over it, covering her nose and mouth.

Plus another determining fact would have been, as JA tried to explain to Dr. Spitz in court, that the duct tape was placed on the hair that was attached to the sides of her face. The fact that the hair slid down once the scalp was gone did not change where the tape was attached to the hair. Dr. G knows exactly where that tape was affixed. In order to hold the mandible in place the tape would have had to have formed a slight pocket as it was wrapped around her jaw area. That is why the jaw bone was kept in place.

I have never heard an explanation as to why the tape would be there that made sense other than Dr. G's. For DT to say there could have been other reasons just does not fly. jmo

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

A FACT is that it is 84 degrees.

What you THINK or OPINE about it does not CHANGE the FACT that it is 84 degrees (not shouting, just too lazy to use the italic function ).

Your Alaskan, African and Arizonian example above is a perfect example of why OPINION is more about the person having the opinion than the facts themselves.

None of the above are wrong, of course! But they ARE irrelevant, if one of them were to argue that it's really NOT 84 degrees just because they personally are not "hot".

Ok, so the only thing that matters is the facts, and I agree with you there.

In this case, in regards to the duct tape, the only fact is that it was found, adhered to a hair mass, in the vicinity of the skull. Everything else is speculation in regards to the duct tape. It is not a fact that the duct tape was placed on the mouth and nose area, that was speculation made by the ME, and the prosecution. It is not a fact that KC placed the duct tape over Caylee's mouth and nose, that was speculation by the ME and the prosecution. It is not a fact that the duct tape suffocated Caylee and caused her death, that was speculation by the ME and the prosecution. It is not a fact that KC placed first one, then two, then three strips of duct tape over Caylee's mouth and nose, thus premeditating the murder of Caylee, that was speculation by JA.

All the speculation by the ME and the prosecution is irrelevant because it is not fact. Correct?

Since we both agree that opinions and inferences and speculation are not fact, and thus irrelevant, then the only fact that can be considered by the jury is that the duct tape was adhered to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull.

I know, I know, you have to look at all the evidence, the totality of evidence, the preponderance of evidence, the entire mountain of circumstantial evidence.
But, you cannot count speculation, inferences, and opinions in this mountain of evidence. So when you throw out all the speculation, and look at only the hard core, simple facts, the mountain of evidence has shrunk considerably.

The one fact that is indisputable, and most likely at this point irreversible, is that the verdict on counts 1 thru 3 was not guilty. The jurors unanimously agreed. I can speculate that the jurors believed that the state did not present enough facts to prove KC's guilt BARD on those first 3 counts, that is not a fact though simply my opinion.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

 

[LambChop]

I think it is ironic that people who think that Caylee drowned and that the duct tape was not on her face also feel it's possible because it was GA's duct tape that maybe he did it. jmo

 

[LambChop]

It's not speculation when you use scientific facts and measurements to figure exactly where that tape was when there was tissue on Caylee's face. The tape was adhered to the hair in the proximity of where the tape would have been placed on her face. The size of three pieces of tape one on top of the other does not leave much doubt as to where that duct tape was placed.

Dr. G. is not using speculation as much as she is using measurements and calculations to determine where that tape was. As an ME she would have done that. To say she did not is speculation. jmo

 

[wonders]

It can be inferred....but it was not proven. There was no proof that the tape had been over her mouth and or nose. And before I get the usual mandible in place, IMO there are other explainable reasons for that. All JMO.

BBM:
Please, do tell what the other explainable reasons are. Also if you don't mind my asking, have you seen the photo's without pixals?

 

[Aedrys]

The mandible is not speculation. Nothing holds the mandible to the skull except tendons and muscle. When that is not there, there is NOTHING to hold the mandible to the skull. Please do prove how the mandible could still be in it's anatomic place if the duct tape flowed down a stream. That is impossible. The only way it was there was that it was on the hair, which was on the skull. And remember, months underwater, then the area dried up enough that the skull landed in mud. What scientific proof is there other than the placement of the tape over her face that would keep the mandible in it's anatomic position?

 

[wallflower67]

I hate to be morbid, but have any unpixelated photos of Caylee's skull as found by Kronk in the swamp been released?

As difficult as it would be to look at, I'd like to see exactly what the duct tape looked like in the position in which it was found. It's been said by the defense that the tape could have floated from the taped bag into that position. I think either a juror or a member of the media agreed.

I'd like to form my own opinion. I'd like to see for myself if there was any reasonable doubt there, since I can't find one anywhere else. (Yeah, I'm still bitter about the outcome of this trial.)

 

[krkrjx]

(snipped)

In my view, to conclude that (with the evidence given) Casey Anthony was not responsible for the death of her daughter means a person must RESIST a set of common, predictable inferences. And replace the common, predictable inferences with . . . what? Some very "anything could have happened" type inferences. I perceive massive resistance to the idea that Caylee died the way a vast majority of children die. I do not personally understand this resistance, other than to conclude there are individual, personal reasons that hark back to the person resisting the obvious. Resisting the universal, resisting the most common, Occam's Razor explanation.

...and this is exactly what the jury did. The foreman stated in his interview (with GVS) that there were "any number of ways that Caylee could have died."

I was floored at that statement. Really, how many "ways that Caylee could have died" include duct tape over her airways?

Clearly the jury did as you stated: Resisted the obvious.

 

[wonders]

I hate to be morbid, but have any unpixelated photos of Caylee's skull as found by Kronk in the swamp been released?

As difficult as it would be to look at, I'd like to see exactly what the duct tape looked like in the position in which it was found. It's been said by the defense that the tape could have floated from the taped bag into that position. I think either a juror or a member of the media agreed.

I'd like to form my own opinion. I'd like to see for myself if there was any reasonable doubt there, since I can't find one anywhere else. (Yeah, I'm still bitter about the outcome of this trial.)

I have wanted to see those photo's myself. Not to be morbid or disrespectful to Caylee but to see for myself why it didn't have any effect on that jury along with all of the other so obvious evidence.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

The mandible was still in it's anatomic position. That did not happen with the tape floating downstream or accidently attaching itself. The. SAME. Anatomic. Position. That cannot happen after death, and it surely can't happen from nature. It was on the skull, (the hair on is the dang skull too, so we need to quit splitting hairs here. It was on the skull on top of the hair). Duct tape doesn't stick to decomposing skin, not to wet skin either. Her skin had to be DRY for the application. There is no getting around, not even scientifically, that this duct tape was applied to keep her quiet and kill her. We have a whole thread that talks about this. Science doesn't lie. The tape doesn't lie. It was there. On her skull, covering her mouth and nose until it degraded away. The hair kept it there. The mandible was still in the same anatomic position. I can't say that enough. That is IMPOSSIBLE without the tape adhering to the skull.

This was no coverup, no accident, it was cold blooded murder. Just because some people choose to ignore the science and imagine a nicer story of Caylee's death doesn't make it true. The jury just couldn't face the reality of this case. They let their emotions wimp them out of making the right verdict. Not wanting to believe a mother could do that to her child doesn't make what actually happened not true. Follow the science. Really follow it. In this case, the science is truth, not emotions. Heck, even those who believed the world to be flat had to follow science and logic at some point and realize they were wrong.

That amazing mandible, somehow managed to stay in an anatomically correct position, even after the remains had completely skeletonized, and the tape was only adhering to a hair mat (and at that point could not possibly have been holding the mandible in place), and then managed to stay in an anatomically correct position when the skull that was allegedly in a bag or three somehow found its way to the ground, and additionally stayed in anatomically correct position despite the animal activity (that scattered many bones but amazingly left the mandible alone in its anatomically correct position), not to mention, the fact that Tropical storm Faye flooded area A yet left the mandible in its anatomically correct position. It really is amazing that the mandible remained in its anatomically correct position.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

 

[logicalgirl]

I have wanted to see those photo's myself. Not to be morbid or disrespectful to Caylee but to see for myself why it didn't have any effect on that jury along with all of the other so obvious evidence.

They didn't look at them?

 

[Concerned Papa]

I hate to be morbid, but have any unpixelated photos of Caylee's skull as found by Kronk in the swamp been released?

As difficult as it would be to look at, I'd like to see exactly what the duct tape looked like in the position in which it was found. It's been said by the defense that the tape could have floated from the taped bag into that position. I think either a juror or a member of the media agreed.

I'd like to form my own opinion. I'd like to see for myself if there was any reasonable doubt there, since I can't find one anywhere else. (Yeah, I'm still bitter about the outcome of this trial.)

The picture painted by Chief Deputy Medical Examiner Dr. Gary Utz is more than enough for me.

The early photos from the recovery scene appear almost innocuous. They show the pale, round back of the skull, poking up from the leaves and the muck near a log. In these initial images, Caylee's skull looks almost like a large egg shell, except for the wet strands of hair stuck to the bone and duct tape fibers.

Perhaps the most disturbing in the progression of photos prosecutors displayed Thursday came later: a frontal view of Caylee's skull — empty eye sockets, hair matted on the top, front and sides, covering much of what was once a face, vegetation and overlapping pieces of duct tape. The grayish tape formed a kind of mask along the right side of the skull, covering the jaw and nasal cavity.

Once displayed on large monitors in the courtroom, this image elicited a single gasp from the gallery.

The pictures were punctuated by clinical testimony from a crime scene investigator and officials with the Orange-Osceola Medical Examiner's Office.

"The pieces of tape were attached to each other," said Chief Deputy Medical Examiner Dr. Gary Utz. "There appeared to be more than one. I did not separate them."

Utz noted it was unusual that the lower jaw, or mandible, had remained in place.

"The mandible is usually left behind at some point," Utz said. "In this case, it's still attached because of the hair mat."

He also explained that fabric from the tape was lightly adhering to the mandible. "The tape itself was no longer adhesive," he said, but some portions were still stuck to the hair.

And he pointed out plant root growth through and around the skull.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...tape-casey-anthony-trial-caylee-marie-anthony

"The tape could have floated from the taped bag into that position"?

The same exceedingly rare brand of discontinued duct tape used on the gas can AND the missing posters at the tent FLOATED into that position?

Wow! Talk about AMAZING........

 

[marge_rita]

It can be inferred....but it was not proven. There was no proof that the tape had been over her mouth and or nose. And before I get the usual mandible in place, IMO there are other explainable reasons for that. All JMO.

Commonsense should have been used to figure that out. Caylee certainly didn't have duct tape strung from eye to eye. And it certainly wasn't placed vertically.

What reasons could you possible have for the duct tape? tia

imo

 

[Sammiejam]

Once again, it just STUNS me that the jury could have seen what is spoken about in the above mentioned article (thanks Concerned Papa) and said, "Yep, triple-bagged and dumped in a swamp with duct-tape around her little face - definitely says DROWNING to us!"

I knows going over old ground again but EVERY TIME I read what they SAW with their own eyes, my teeth clench, my gut churns and I just CANNOT. FRIGGIN. BELIEVE IT.

Drowning. Freakin' DROWNING?!?

SO UTTERLY RIDICULOUS.

 

[LinasK]

Yet she was smart enough to not only look up chloroform, but actually make it, use it, then dispose of its contents. Doesn't really add up unless she didn't put thought into the duct tape because she thought they would never find caylee

And that's exactly why it does add up. I figure she made the Chloroform in the abandoned house nearby that Dominic Casey was so interested in...

 

[PeteyGirl]

Ok, so the only thing that matters is the facts, and I agree with you there.

In this case, in regards to the duct tape, the only fact is that it was found, adhered to a hair mass, in the vicinity of the skull. Everything else is speculation in regards to the duct tape. It is not a fact that the duct tape was placed on the mouth and nose area, that was speculation made by the ME, and the prosecution. It is not a fact that KC placed the duct tape over Caylee's mouth and nose, that was speculation by the ME and the prosecution. It is not a fact that the duct tape suffocated Caylee and caused her death, that was speculation by the ME and the prosecution. It is not a fact that KC placed first one, then two, then three strips of duct tape over Caylee's mouth and nose, thus premeditating the murder of Caylee, that was speculation by JA.

All the speculation by the ME and the prosecution is irrelevant because it is not fact. Correct?

Since we both agree that opinions and inferences and speculation are not fact, and thus irrelevant, then the only fact that can be considered by the jury is that the duct tape was adhered to a hair mass in the vicinity of the skull.

I know, I know, you have to look at all the evidence, the totality of evidence, the preponderance of evidence, the entire mountain of circumstantial evidence.
But, you cannot count speculation, inferences, and opinions in this mountain of evidence. So when you throw out all the speculation, and look at only the hard core, simple facts, the mountain of evidence has shrunk considerably.

The one fact that is indisputable, and most likely at this point irreversible, is that the verdict on counts 1 thru 3 was not guilty. The jurors unanimously agreed. I can speculate that the jurors believed that the state did not present enough facts to prove KC's guilt BARD on those first 3 counts, that is not a fact though simply my opinion.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

No; I do not agree that all speculation is irrelevant. It is a very absurd idea, as you carefully spelled out, taken to an extreme.

We're talking about something that actually happened, whether we know ALL the exact facts or not, they DO exist. This is where I perceive my posts get confusing to you. There is a huge difference between the relevance of what I THINK happened and what professional, scientific and time-tested methods speculate on what happened.

There is a huge difference between subjectively derived speculations and objectively derived ones. It is much more likely that objectively derived speculations about actual events that DID happen approach the truth better than personal speculations.

The 84 degree situation you posted above is a great example of subjectively derived speculation about "what is comfortable". It is a very different and much less reliable way to speculate than how the MEs speculated. There really is no comparing them.

Solipsism is a term that describes the confusion between subjective and objective verification of facts. It basically means that the "truth" is subjective, that everything is "relative", that what I *think* or feel about something is what it IS. That there is no objective truth.

 

[2goldfish]

I'm pretty sure it was only attached to the hair but laying over (not attached) to the skull

you are correct :sigh: but what it seems like people have difficulty grasping is that it's because caylee had no face left. the tissue decomposed and then the sticky bits of tape did too. it remained in place because it was cruelly stuck into her hair where matts formed and kept the tape in place. it is so significant that it remained in the "vicinity" of the nose mouth area but some people just dont see that :sigh:

 

[Concerned Papa]

I'm pretty sure it was only attached to the hair but laying over (not attached) to the skull

ONLY attached to the hair? ONLY laying over the skull? Is that supposed to be some type of convoluted "reasonable doubt" for this jury?

Jeff Ashton said it best in his closing argument:

"There is NO good reason to put duct tape over the face of a child"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20076526-504083.html