Silly String Birthday Party

[crystalmama]

Hi Everyone,
Well I had a time logging on but it seems to be OK now.

Cami you live in Canada! My daughter and her family have been living in Canada for 13 years.I last visited them in 2001 and miss them terribly.
But oh how I loved Canada.
Oh Canada! Oh Canada!

Wasn't the Australian Open terrific! I was sorry for Federer but happy for the Spanish fellow.Don't know his name.
It is raining today and there is a cyclone coming down the coast to where I live, so my dogs and I will hunker down for a few days.

About Darlie's guilt or innocence.I really think it is called having a certain mindset.
It's like if you believe in God there is a God.If you don't believe in God, then there is none.
It is like what the philosopher Kiirkgard wrote about faith and reason.
If you have faith, then you can't possibly use logic to reason.
I once had faith that a woman could not stab her children to death while they slept in front of her.
It defied logic so my faith told me she didn't do it.
However when confronted with the logic of the case, which was Darlie's lies, her behaviour, the evidence etc, the logic overcame my faith.
Had I clung to the belief in Darlie's innocence in spite of the immense amount of evidence against her, I would have retained my faith in mothers' love.

I am too logical a person to do that.Things have to make sense to me.
I can understand why people don't want to see Darlie as guilty.I didn't.I am a perfect example.

I don't intend any unkindness to anyone in my posts.I am an old lady;I am nearly blind; and I am disabled, and I don't get too interested in too many murders.I find that time is short and I have too many things to do.

The only murders I have followed on the net are Darlie and the WM3 because I believe they suffered from a witch hunt similar to Lindy Chamberlain.
Australian murders I stay away from, although if a book falls into my hands I will read it.
I admire the way some people here can process all the information from the transcripts.
Me...I can barely use a computer let alone understand the process of law.

I truly think that some of the posters who think Darlie is innocent do so out of their own kindness of their own hearts.They are good decent people and because they know it would be impossible for them to do, they think it was impossible for Darlie.
Well Darlie is cut from different cloth.

Regards,CM

 

[cami]

Im disheartened by the posts telling the *new* people to read old posts
Seriously do you think that I havent ?
I read about Darlie on here years ago. That was my first intro to WS - just because I didn't join here then doesnt mean I wasnt here.
Just because people have a different view on things doesnt make them wrong - its just different to your view.
Im not wrong to believe she is innocent - It may be that she is guilty but until a second trial comes about that is fair then I will stand by what I believe.

Telling me that I am wrong is not right. lol that sounds so funny but you get what i mean I am sure.

Please dont presume what people know and do not know. There are some things that I may have forgotten , there is a lot to remember, But I believed she was innocent years ago and I still do.

You're not wrong..how could you be wrong to believe in her innocence. I said you are using information that is incorrect and has been proven incorrect to base your belief in Darlie's innocence on.

 

[cami]

Bold is mine - well there is other evidence that hasnt been processed. There was evidence that was trampled over at the crime scent in the chaoticness of it all.

But you disagree with that



So we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Because it's not true, that's why I disagree. There is no other evidence that hasn't been processed and there was no trampling over of the evidence in a chaotic crime scene. The CS was locked down immediately.

 

[JaneInOz]

Because it's not true, that's why I disagree. There is no other evidence that hasn't been processed and there was no trampling over of the evidence in a chaotic crime scene. The CS was locked down immediately.

Please read this thread

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3125496&postcount=254

Have you all read this ?

http://crime.about.com/od/current/a/darlieroutier_3.htm

(Snipped from page 3 of the 3 pages)

The attorney that represented Darlie Routier at trial had an apparent conflict of interest, because he reportedly had a pre-arrangement with Darin Routier and other family members not to pursue any defense that could implicate Darin. This attorney allegedly stopped key experts for the defense from completing forensic examinations.

Other areas of concern which were never brought to the attention of the jury include the pictures of Darlie's cut's and bruises on her arms which were taken when she was hospitalized the night of the murders. At least one juror told reporters he would never have voted to convict if he had seen the photographs.

Bloody fingerprints have been found that do not belong to Darlie, Darin, the children or any of the police or other people in the Routier house the night of the murder. This contradicts testimony given during her trial that there were no fingerprints found outside the home.
Questions her defense team want answered:

* A bloody fingerprint was found on the living room table. Who does it belong to?

* There was a bloody fingerprint on the door of the garage. Who does it belong to?

* Darin Routier's jeans had blood on them. Whose blood is it?

* A pubic hair was found in the Routier living room. Who does it belong to?

* How did the blood on Darlie's nightshirt get there and whose is it?

* Did the police get debris on the knife in the kitchen while investigating the murder or did it come from the screen door?

Darin Routier has admitted to trying to arrange an insurance scam, which included someone breaking into their home. He has admitted that he had begun the initial steps to arrange a break-in, but that it was to be done when no one was at home. No jury has heard this admission.

The incriminating Birthday Party film that was viewed by the jury showed Darlie dancing on the graves of her son along with other family members, but did not include the filming of the hours previous to that scene when Darlie sobbed and grieved over the graves with her husband Darin. Why was the additional footage not shown to the jury?

Neighbors reported seeing a black car sitting in front of the Routier home a week before the murders took place. Other neighbors reported seeing the same car leaving the area on the night of the murders. Were these reports investigated by police?

Investigators during her trial invoked their fifth amendment rights against self-incrimination during cross examination, preventing the defense from rebuting their testimony. What did these investigators fear by being cross-examined?

There was discussion of the police not protecting the evidence as they collected it which could have possibly damaged it's origins. Did this really occur?
More Questions that Need Answers

* The screen which investigators reported to the press as being cut from the inside was later proven in court to be cut from the outside.

* When the paramedics arrived at the scene they said that Darin Routier was outside, but Darin was inside trying to save his children. Who was the man outside?

* Was the testimony from the nurses in the hospital coached and rehearsed in mock trials by the prosecution prior to their testimony, as it has been reported?

* The surgeon who operated on Darlie said that the cut in her neck was 2mm of the carotid sheath but was superficial to the carotid artery. The necklace she was wearing was damaged as a result of the wound but it also blocked the knife from going deeper into her neck. Did the jury get a clear understanding as to the seriousness of her wounds?

* Was there an improper read-back of testimony to the jury by the court reporter, due to mistakes she made in the transcript?

* The prosecution has reportedly refused to provide access to any evidence in their custody in the case. Why is it not readily available to all interested parties?

* The advancements in DNA testing could put many of these questions to rest. Why is there such a reluctance to do the testing?

* Some writers who have interviewed Darlie Routier have decided to help her fight to get a new trial. Since reporting their opinions on her situation, they report that their ability to visit her has been blocked or made so inconvenient that little can be accomplished.

When the facts are spread like that how can anyone deny giving Darlie a new trial

Just imagine Just for ONE moment in time, whatever side of the Darlie Fence you sit, and just imagine it was YOU accused and convicted to death of this crime of your child/children and YOU knew that YOU didn't commit this horrific crime but NO ONE was listening to you........and not only were YOU grieving the loss of your baby/babies but you were going to be put to death for something that you didn't do........

Just imagine it for one moment.....

And answer those questions ?

Why are Darlie Haters so beligerant to Darlie supporters OR SHOULD I SAY Darlie WANT THE TRUTHERS !

That is what I am - a Want the Truth'er

I am not a Darlie supporter as suggested by yourself and other Darlie haters in many Darlie Threads

But I believe their was a miscarriage of Justice, as in they set their sites immediate that it was her and went about convicting her, they didn't have rose coloured glasses on they had black ones on against her

 

[cami]

Please read this thread

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3125496&postcount=254





And answer those questions ?

Why are Darlie Haters so beligerant to Darlie supporters OR SHOULD I SAY Darlie WANT THE TRUTHERS !

That is what I am - a Want the Truth'er

I am not a Darlie supporter as suggested by yourself and other Darlie haters in many Darlie Threads

But I believe their was a miscarriage of Justice, as in they set their sites immediate that it was her and went about convicting her, they didn't have rose coloured glasses on they had black ones on against her

I'm not a Darlie hater and I don't believe I was beligerant. Most of us old time posters have been through all this stuff you keep posting over and over again and it gets a bit tiresome. It's from Darlie's website, posted by her mother. Hardly impartial. You can take anything and spin to make someone believe the opposite and that's what's been done here.

I've posted the trial testimony for you where they discuss Darlie's injuries, especially the arm bruises that prove the photos were shown to the jury. Jurors have been on television programs discussing the bruises. If one juror did not see them, he wasn't paying attention.

Read the court documents regarding the conflict of interest. Darlie herself told the judge she had no problem with Mulder representing Darin. It's too late to cry over spilt milk.

I've never heard of a fingerprint found outside the home..big deal could be anybodies.

As far as the fingerprint on the door...you have to use your common sense on this.......Darlie's blood is dripped all over the utility room and there's a fair bit of it running down that door. Now Darlie testified that she never went into the utility room so if we're to believe her where did all that blood come from? The intruder still had the garage to go through, the window and the yard but there's no blood in any of these places that would indicate he passed through there and no indication that he wiped his hands. So there's a lack of blood where there should be blood. Since Darlie is bleeding heavily and her hands were bloody, my common sense tells me this is Darlie's fingerprint on the door..she went into that utility room whilst bleeding for some reason.

Darlie has not been excluded from having made this print by the state..only her own defence attorneys.

Same with the other print. When you know the blood evidence, you'll realize it's her print. It has a whorl pattern, she has a whorl pattern, it's small as if from an adult female--certainly doesn't match a 6 ft intruder. It's smudged in blood and likely to remain unidentifiable. There's blood in that area to indicate she was there and quite possibly steadied herself using that table.

Both these prints do not have enough points to identify anyone, they can be used to exclude but not include.

Darin's jeans have been available for blood testing by the defence since 1996. If they want to know who's blood is on them, then test them. Defence attorneys can spin anything. They always have access to the evidence to test prior to trial...it's discovery.

Public hair smubic hair. We all drop hair daily and we all transfer hair daily. The hair could have come in off someone's clothing or someone's shoe. Did they test every single visitor, repairman, mailman, trades people, etc. that ever entered the Routier house? Even listing unsourced hair like this is silly. My hair could be in your house or yours in mine but we've never been in each others homes. Now if the pubic hair had been found on Darlie's privates, that's a different story.

The blood on Darlie's nightshirt was thoroughly gone over with the blood expert during the trial. They know how it got there and who's it is...more spin. The shirt contains all three blood types, Darlie's, Devon's and Damon's.

LOL, how could the jury hear Darin's admission to an insurance scam when it was given six years after the crime. Darin was investigated...they could find no evidence that Darin even discussed a break in with anyone let alone commenced one. This is a dp state, someone would have come forward. You've got two dead kids here. If anyone had knowledge that Darin even discussed this with someone, they would have come forward. At trial both Darlie and Darin testified they had no money problems, no marital problems, everything was peachy keen with them.

No the police did not get debris on the bread knife that was used to cut the window screen.

We've already been over and over the silly string tape and surveillance video...

This is why MC suggested that new posters read the old threads. All of this has been discussed, disected and put back together again.

Black car...no make, no model, no licence plate no., no descriptions of occupants. Why did the neighbours not tell the Routiers or call the cops if there was a suspicious car outside the Routiers? A black car was stopped outside the home on the night of the murders and the occupants searched..nothing. There's no testimony from any neighbours that they saw a black car leaving the Routiers the night of the murders. Darin was the first thing any of them heard out on the lawn screaming. The black car is just another red herring.

Darin was the man outside. For goodness sake, two police officers responded before the ambulances did, one at a time. One officer was inside before the second officer got to the scene. When he did, Darin was outside on the lawn. It's all testified to by the neighbour across the street who saw it all.

Etc, etc. like I said you can spin anything if you want to. You said you want truth yet you apparently have not read any of the court documents. It's easy to believe there is a miscarriage of justice when you only read one side of things. It's like the gold necklace. The gold necklace was not imbeded in her neck wound and quite possibly was used as a guide to inflict the neck wound--not save her life or keep her from serious injury.

No offence or sarcasm intended

 

[JaneInOz]

I'm not a Darlie hater and I don't believe I was beligerant. Most of us old time posters have been through all this stuff you keep posting over and over again and it gets a bit tiresome. It's from Darlie's website, posted by her mother. Hardly impartial. You can take anything and spin to make someone believe the opposite and that's what's been done here.

I've posted the trial testimony for you where they discuss Darlie's injuries, especially the arm bruises that prove the photos were shown to the jury. Jurors have been on television programs discussing the bruises. If one juror did not see them, he wasn't paying attention.

Read the court documents regarding the conflict of interest. Darlie herself told the judge she had no problem with Mulder representing Darin. It's too late to cry over spilt milk.

I've never heard of a fingerprint found outside the home..big deal could be anybodies.

As far as the fingerprint on the door...you have to use your common sense on this.......Darlie's blood is dripped all over the utility room and there's a fair bit of it running down that door. Now Darlie testified that she never went into the utility room so if we're to believe her where did all that blood come from? The intruder still had the garage to go through, the window and the yard but there's no blood in any of these places that would indicate he passed through there and no indication that he wiped his hands. So there's a lack of blood where there should be blood. Since Darlie is bleeding heavily and her hands were bloody, my common sense tells me this is Darlie's fingerprint on the door..she went into that utility room whilst bleeding for some reason.

Darlie has not been excluded from having made this print by the state..only her own defence attorneys.

Same with the other print. When you know the blood evidence, you'll realize it's her print. It has a whorl pattern, she has a whorl pattern, it's small as if from an adult female--certainly doesn't match a 6 ft intruder. It's smudged in blood and likely to remain unidentifiable. There's blood in that area to indicate she was there and quite possibly steadied herself using that table.

Both these prints do not have enough points to identify anyone, they can be used to exclude but not include.

Darin's jeans have been available for blood testing by the defence since 1996. If they want to know who's blood is on them, then test them. Defence attorneys can spin anything. They always have access to the evidence to test prior to trial...it's discovery.

Public hair smubic hair. We all drop hair daily and we all transfer hair daily. The hair could have come in off someone's clothing or someone's shoe. Did they test every single visitor, repairman, mailman, trades people, etc. that ever entered the Routier house? Even listing unsourced hair like this is silly. My hair could be in your house or yours in mine but we've never been in each others homes. Now if the pubic hair had been found on Darlie's privates, that's a different story.

The blood on Darlie's nightshirt was thoroughly gone over with the blood expert during the trial. They know how it got there and who's it is...more spin. The shirt contains all three blood types, Darlie's, Devon's and Damon's.

LOL, how could the jury hear Darin's admission to an insurance scam when it was given six years after the crime. Darin was investigated...they could find no evidence that Darin even discussed a break in with anyone let alone commenced one. This is a dp state, someone would have come forward. You've got two dead kids here. If anyone had knowledge that Darin even discussed this with someone, they would have come forward. At trial both Darlie and Darin testified they had no money problems, no marital problems, everything was peachy keen with them.

No the police did not get debris on the bread knife that was used to cut the window screen.

We've already been over and over the silly string tape and surveillance video...

This is why MC suggested that new posters read the old threads. All of this has been discussed, disected and put back together again.

Black car...no make, no model, no licence plate no., no descriptions of occupants. Why did the neighbours not tell the Routiers or call the cops if there was a suspicious car outside the Routiers? A black car was stopped outside the home on the night of the murders and the occupants searched..nothing. There's no testimony from any neighbours that they saw a black car leaving the Routiers the night of the murders. Darin was the first thing any of them heard out on the lawn screaming. The black car is just another red herring.

Darin was the man outside. For goodness sake, two police officers responded before the ambulances did, one at a time. One officer was inside before the second officer got to the scene. When he did, Darin was outside on the lawn. It's all testified to by the neighbour across the street who saw it all.

Etc, etc. like I said you can spin anything if you want to. You said you want truth yet you apparently have not read any of the court documents. It's easy to believe there is a miscarriage of justice when you only read one side of things. It's like the gold necklace. The gold necklace was not imbeded in her neck wound and quite possibly was used as a guide to inflict the neck wound--not save her life or keep her from serious injury.

No offence or sarcasm intended

Bold is mine

Ive got that far and want to say something

If its tiresome then why don't you just walk away?
Why should us her are *newer* posters be scurried off because its *tiresome*

Im sorry if its boring you

But there are many who would only just perhaps even step into this and want to ask and debate.

If its old *tiring* news to you then why read it ?

As for the other comment I didn't get that from Darlies website

Im going to bed now and will read the rest of your post tommorow

For me the constant arguing is getting tiresome. People who think differently should be able to post without fear of being *reprimanded* or told its tiresome for their *different* view on the Darlie Routier Case

 

[Daphne69]

~ respectfully snipped~

As for the other comment I didn't get that from Darlies website

Hi Jane,

I know your info didn't some directly from Darlie's (mom's) Web site, but the person writing for About.com did. It was listed as one of the primary sources along with Crime Library.

Personally, I think Darlie's guilty. BUT...if there is corroboration of the evidence listed on Darlie's Web site, I would definitely be interested in seeing it. I don't think evidence should be overlooked, but I also don't want to take Darlie's or her mom's word for it.

If you don't mind, I would be interested in your theory of the knives. I believe the evidence on the bread knife is good, but even if I remove that from the equation, the bloody knife still makes no sense to me. Why would an intruder who has a knife to cut the screen with choose another knife from the home with which to do the killings? Also, I'm interested to know whether or not you agree that murder, not burglarly, was always the intent.

 

[CyberLaw]

The intent was murder, pure and simple. A person does not "cut a screen"(which showed no one entered or exited the screen) and then leave that way also. Does not make sense. The front door is closer. Why would an armed intruder, who just killed two boys even run away from a women chasing him. Please he has a knife and Darlie is unarmed. That again does not make any sense. Then he drops the knife so now the person chasing him is armed. Please.......defies reality.

Also, nothing was taken, at all. That was one thing that Darlie was concerned about when she made the 911 call.

Also, when someone breaks into a home, they don't know where weapons are, they don't know where the kitchen is, or if the knives are in the drawer. They come armed with their own weapon.

Also, people who break into houses don't "houseclean", they don't wipe away blood at the sink and or sofa. Also, if the person "did" leave through the screen, the person would need to "steady" himself by climbing out through the screen, his hands with blood on them would be on the inside of the screen on the frame. Not a drop.

What about the dog, did not bark at all when two children were murdered, but alas when the Police came(strangers)the dog barked and barked like it does when strangers are in the house.

So that leaves us:

A bloody fingerprint was found on the living room table. Who does it belong to?

Either a small child or a women. It is small and Darlie cannot be ruled out. The point was not in good enough shape to say whom the print belonged to.

* There was a bloody fingerprint on the door of the garage. Who does it belong to?

Never heard of that, can you please point out in the transcripts where this was brought up in trial. It would have had to be entered into evidence if it was "for real" . The defense would enter this as evidence of course. Was the print taken for analysis in AFIS

* Darin Routier's jeans had blood on them. Whose blood is it?

I would say it was the blood of one of his son's, as he was trying to give CPR to one of his sons, only blood came out, not air. arlie admitted on the stand that her husband had nothing to do with the murders. This is in the transcrpts.

* A pubic hair was found in the Routier living room. Who does it belong to?

Anyone who was ever been "intimate" or not fully clothed in the living room.. Was it from a man or women. How long was it there for. A week, a year. Did Darlie sisters have a boyfriend over, what about babysitters who had boyfriends over. Darlie not wearing undergarments at any time during the time they lived in the house. Darin wearing a bathing suit, coming in from the hot tub. it could have been there for sometime and from anyone.

* How did the blood on Darlie's nightshirt get there and whose is it?

Come on, from the transcripts, the blood of her two son's were discovered on the nightshirt. Mixed blood. We all know where the blood came from and how it came to be on her nightshirt. The blood was deposited in an a swinging motion, from stabbing and raising your arm, blood drips on your shoulder and then you bring down the knife again and again.

* Did the police get debris on the knife in the kitchen while investigating the murder or did it come from the screen door?

The screen door, the fibres are consistant with the fiberglass of the screen. The knife was taken from the knife block, the screen was cut and the knife was replaced in the knife block. What a considerate "intruder" as to not to leave the "knife" just lying around. He was nice enough to replace it where he found it.

Again, there is nothing, except speculation and innudendo, but nothing in the way of evidence. the shame of this is, that all of the evidence points to and pointed to Darlie, the person convicted of the offense.

Darin knows that Darlie killed the boys, no doubt in my mind. But she is the mother of the surviving child.

Sometimes I tend to think that Darlie "snapped" and killed the two boys. I tend to think sometimes that "she was not smart" enough to "stage" her own injuries to "throw" off investigators. In some similar cases, the mother either killed herself or tried to kill herself. This may have "been the intent" of the knife cut to the throat. But in the end, like with others, the pain was too much, Darlie was pressed for time and the injury could be explained that the "stranger" tried to attack her too.

Even "very smart" people cannot stage a crime scene to "fool" investigators. Remember a person who stages a crime scene does not know what investigative procedures are going to be used and are not a trained investigator, so therefore they do not know how to stage a crime scene successfully.

 

[crystalmama]

Here I am back to the silly string again.
Whatever people chose to think about Darlie and her supposed innocence, you have to stand back aghast at her behaviour at the graveside.
Darlie was exhibiting, amongst other things, acceptance of the fate of her sons.
Acceptance is a stage we don't arrive at in a tragedy until we have been through all the other stages.....denial,disbelief, anger,etc, can't remember them now.
For any ordinary death, a person has trouble accepting the final loss of a loved one.
For deaths like those suffered by the little Routier boys,to come to acceptance 8 days later, and to show it in such a way is mind boggling to say the least.

About reading the old posts.......they are so full of information and indeed have covered every single aspect of the crime.
Whilst re-reading last night I came across this post by dear Goody..........
This is the second paragraph.
...........It always seemed odd and out of place to me anyway that Darlie would tell him about her neck in a moment of hysteria over her boys.
Another thing I found odd is she never says she went to Devon but somehow she knew the boy was fatally wounded.If you looked across the room and saw blood on or around your child, would you not run right to him?
Or would you run to the stairs and holler to your husband first, then show him your neck wound you'd only just discovered was there, all the while screaming your child's name over and over again?
Why did she not want the police to think she had gone near Devon that night?
Why was Devon the only child that Darin wanted police to think he'd gone near?
It almost looks like they had designated posts.
From 911 Call Archives.

That sort of backs up my theory that Darlie hornswoggled Darin into stabbing one boy or she would kill herself.
I think Darin's behaviour during the silly string business was evidence of his guilt.
I noticed the pair never held hands or hugged each other during this time.
And why he didn't want the police to come after him.
Of course Darin is smarter than Darlie and can remember to keep his story straight whereas Darlie couldn't remember from one minute to another what she said previously.

Regards,
CM.

 

[accordn2me]

<snip>If you don't mind, I would be interested in your theory of the knives. I believe the evidence on the bread knife is good, but even if I remove that from the equation, the bloody knife still makes no sense to me. <snip>

Regarding the knife and fibers (they were dusted for fingerprints by LE before Linch got them):

ETA: By the way, Linch testified during the trial that the knives had not been dusted for fingerprints before he got them.

http://www.fordarlieroutier.org/Evidence/WritAffidavits/linch2.html

"At the time I received this butcher block and knives at the SWIFS Laboratory, both the butcher block itself and all the knives in it had been dusted for fingerprints. This included a serrated bread knife which I later designated as "Knife #4." This knife was located on the left end of the bottom row of knives in the butcher block.

8. The serration grooves in Knife #4 contained debris consisting of microscopic rubber dust particles and a microscopic fiberglass rod fragment. Based on my forensic microscopic comparison, this material was microscopically consistent with debris obtained from the garage window screen at 5801 Eagle Drive, Rowlett, Texas. However, while I was asked only to perform microscopic tests on these samples, microscopic comparison is not the most discriminating method available to determine the source of this debris. If the rubber dust particles and fiberglass rod fragment can be located and removed from the mounting media for testing, more discriminating chemical testing came be performed on this evidence to determine if the debris found in Knife #4 is in fact consistent with the debris from the window screen material. For example, a Fouier Transform Infrared Microscopy (FTIR) test can be used to create a "chemical fingerprint" of the microscopic rubber particles. As a trace evidence analyst, I would recommend such testing be conducted if possible."

http://www.fordarlieroutier.org/Evidence/WritAffidavits/linch2.html

"As a trace evidence analyst, it is my professional opinion that further forensic testing on this evidence would have been appropriate in order to adequately investigate the factual bases of the prosecution's theories. Specifically, it is my professional opinion that if Bart Epstein and Terry Laber were released from their retention as expert witnesses for Darlie Routier's defense, such release constituted a grave error on the part of Darlie Routier's defense counsel."

 

[accordn2me]

Terry Laber

"Barton Epstein and I recommended to Mr. Parks and Mr. Huff that certain samples of physical evidence that we reviewed be analyzed to test the State's theory that the crime scene at 5801 Eagle Drive, Rowlett, Texas had been stated. For example:


a. Fiber and Opaque Material Said to Have Been Removed from Bread Knife: We recommended that microscopic and/or elemental comparison tests be conducted on the fiberglass and opaque materials removed from a bread knife to substantiate or dispute the State's theory that the source of these materials was the window screen in the garage of 5801 Eagle Drive, Rowlett, Texas.

b. Other Fibers Said To Have Been Removed from Knife on Counter: We recommended that the apparent wood fragments and blue fibers removed from the knife found on the kitchen counter be microscopically examined to determine their source.

c. Darlie Routier's Nightshirt: Based on defects (i.e. cuts) observed on the left side of the nightshirt, we determined that additional testing was required to identify the source of the defects. In addition, we recommended that genetic testing be conducted on several blood-stained areas of the nightshirt.

d. Hoover Vacuum Cleaner: Based on our visual examination of the blood stains found on the Hoover vacuum cleaner, we determined that genetic testing was required to determine the source of the blood.

e. Carpet: We recommended DNA and possible chemical testing of blood stains and prints left on the carpet from 5801 Eagle Drive, Rowlett, Texas.

f. Darin Routier's Blue Jeans: We recommended that genetic testing be conducted on several blood-stained areas of Darin Routier's blue jeans.

g. Pillow and furniture: We recommended that genetic testing be conducted on several blood-stained areas on the living room furniture, pillow and on the wine rack.


7. In late October 1996, Douglas Parks informed Mr. Epstein and I that he had been replaced as defense counsel by Darlie Routier and that we should send him a final bill for our services. Shortly thereafter, Mr. Parks informed us that he had been removed as trial counsel and Douglas Mulder had been substituted as the new trial counsel.

8. In late October or November 1996, I met with Douglas Mulder and his investigator, Lloyd Harrell, to discuss the testing that Barton Epstein and I had conducted to date. Barton Epstein did not attend that meeting.

9. During the meeting, I provided Mr. Mulder and Mr. Harrel with a general overview of the work done to date by Mr. Epstein and I. It was my impression that neither Mr. Mulder nor Mr. Harrell seemed particularly interested in that work. Both men asked me only a few questions. The meeting lasted about two hours.

10. Following the meeting, I expected that Douglas Mulder or one of his colleagues would follow up with me because the time in the introductory meeting was not sufficient time to explain in necessary depth the forensic significance of the analysis Barton Epstein and I had performed or had recommended be performed. Mr. Mulder did not retain either Barton Epstein or me to perform any of the testing we recommended, and so we discontinued all work on the case. I had no further involvement in the trial of Darlie Lynn Routier after November 1996.

11. Based on the analysis I performed in this case, it was my professional opinion in November 1996, and is my professional opinion today, that there were numerous pieces of physical evidence we reviewed that were not consistent with a staged crime scene. For example:


a. Review of the blood spatter on and near the vacuum cleaner indicated that the vacuum cleaner had not been pushed around by someone bleeding, but, instead, that most of the bleeding had occurred after the vacuum cleaner had been knocked down.

b. The placement of shards of glass below the location of the wine glasses indicated that the wine glass had broken while still in the rack and was not consistent with a person smashing or throwing the glass onto the floor as part of a staged crime scene.


12. In my professional opinion, scientific testing of the physical evidence would have been critical to Darlie Lynn Routier's defense. Independent testing of that physical evidence was crucial to properly evaluate the State's case. There were numerous potential holes in the State's case that required testing to conform or refute the State's presentation of the evidence and to provide evidence that could well have refuted the State's forensics testimony. These and other tests would have been critical to developing the physical evidence to refute the State's use of forensic and physical evidence and establish Darlie Lynn Routier's innocence.


a. Based on my blood-spatter analysis experience, for the theory that direct hits of Darlie Lynn Routier's blood being spattered from her stab would precisely covered each blood spatter of her tow sons Damon and Devon to have been correct would have required an extremely unlikely sequence of events. My preliminary analysis of the shirt Darlie Lynn Routier was wearing indicated only minimal area of blood spatter and the critical areas of spatter were not subjected to genetic testing. Genetic testing should have been conducted on those blood-stained areas of Darlie Lynn Routier's nightshirt. In addition, a microscopic examination should have been performed to determine the source of cuts observed on the left-side of the neck of the nightshirt.

b. Testing of the fiberglass and opaque material said removed from the bread knife should have been conducted to substantiate or dispute the State's theory that the source of these materials was the window screen in the garage, and the window screen was cut as part of the staged crime scene.

c. The apparent wood fragments and blue fibers removed from the knife found on the kitchen counter should have been microscopically examined to determine their source.

d, DNA testing should have been performed on the blood stains found on the Hoover vacuum cleaner to determine the identity of the persons or persons whose blood was on the vacuum cleaner.

e. DNA and possible chemical testing of blood stains and prints left on carpet and flooring should have been pursued to determine the identity of those who bled or left prints.

f. Genetic testing should have been conducted on several blood-stained areas of Darin Routier's blue jeans since they might have indicated that he was involved in the murder.

g. Genetic testing should have been conducted on several blood-stained areas on the furniture, pillow and wine rack to reconstruct the location and movement of individuals at the crime scene.


12. It is my professional opinion that further testing and evaluation of the items referenced above in numbered paragraphs 6-11 would help establish if in fact the crime scene was or was not staged. Such testing is necessary to confirm or refute the State's testimonial evidence presented at Darlie Routier's trial and to establish Darlie Lynn Routier's innocence. For example:

a. DNA testing and/or microscopic examination should be conducted on blood stains left on Darlie Routier's nightshirt, the Hoover vacuum cleaner, furniture items, pillow, wine rack, and all flooring and carpeting samples in the State's custody.

b. Chemical testing of the flooring and carpeting samples should also be explored. In addition, all microscopic slides of fibers and other matter removed from 5801 Eagle Drive should be examined to determine their source and/or to rule out possible sources.

c. Testing of the brush and powder used to dust the knives in the home at 5801 Eagle Drive should be performed and may refute the theory that fiberglass was consistent with the material from the garage window screen."

http://www.fordarlieroutier.org/Evidence/WritAffidavits/laber.html

 

[JaneInOz]

Hi Jane,

I know your info didn't some directly from Darlie's (mom's) Web site, but the person writing for About.com did. It was listed as one of the primary sources along with Crime Library.

Personally, I think Darlie's guilty. BUT...if there is corroboration of the evidence listed on Darlie's Web site, I would definitely be interested in seeing it. I don't think evidence should be overlooked, but I also don't want to take Darlie's or her mom's word for it.

If you don't mind, I would be interested in your theory of the knives. I believe the evidence on the bread knife is good, but even if I remove that from the equation, the bloody knife still makes no sense to me. Why would an intruder who has a knife to cut the screen with choose another knife from the home with which to do the killings? Also, I'm interested to know whether or not you agree that murder, not burglarly, was always the intent.

Hi
Why do people who do the things they do , do the things they do ? lol

Maybe he was going to use that knife ? maybe he wasnt going to kill anyone to start with, so he used his knife to get in and then maybe one of the children stirred and he was a pyscho anyway and panicked and grabbed the kitchen knife

I honestly do not have all the answers and I do not profess to, But what I do say is that I really want Darlie to have a new trial. Why ? Because if there is ANY DOUBT (which there is a small amount of) then she should not be put to death without re investigating

I do not know if burglary or murder was the intent, as per the theory above it could have been burglary that went wrong OR it could be that he used his own knife to get in and their knife for the murder..
Wasnt there a question over one of the stab wounds on the boys as well ?

Thanks for being nice about discussing it

 

[Indianagirl]

Here I am back to the silly string again.
Whatever people chose to think about Darlie and her supposed innocence, you have to stand back aghast at her behaviour at the graveside.
Darlie was exhibiting, amongst other things, acceptance of the fate of her sons.
Acceptance is a stage we don't arrive at in a tragedy until we have been through all the other stages.....denial,disbelief, anger,etc, can't remember them now.
For any ordinary death, a person has trouble accepting the final loss of a loved one.
For deaths like those suffered by the little Routier boys,to come to acceptance 8 days later, and to show it in such a way is mind boggling to say the least.

I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in here.... everyone grieves differently. There are no rules on how to grieve or what to expect. A couple of personal examples..

1) A mother and father's teenage son died in a car wreck.. the next day, the mother was in such bad shape with grief and didn't know when she would return to work, that same morning the Father got up and took a shower. She asked her husband where he was going, he said "work, I'm not going to drive myself crazy sitting here all day"

2) My best friend's mom died of a brain aneurysm... The very night she died, the family had a "celebration of life" for her. They had probably 50 close friends and family over, heavy drinking was involved. We even did a toast to her and took a shot of her favorite alcohol. All of us were wasted, we cried and we laughed. If a neighbor would have been watching us, I guarantee he would have thought we were having a regular party and would have never guessed someone had just died.

My point being when you lose a loved one I think most of us are in shock and there's no one way to grieve.
Regarding Darlie, with all of the other evidence I belive she is Guilty! However, the silly string video should not be a factor in this case! MOO

 

[crystalmama]

Hi Indianagirl,
Yes you are right that everyone grieves differently.And the two tragedies you told me about were examples of that.
However........there is a world of difference between an accidental death and cold blooded murder.
There is also a world of difference between a death by disease and cold blooded murder.
Psychiatrists of my acquantance have told me that the deaths hardest to handle are those where a loved one is brutally murdered.
In fact some people never get over it.
And when that person is a child it is far far worse.
Death by disease has to be accepted, it is part of life.
Death by accident happens and loved ones blame themselves.But male teenagers are the people most likely to kill themselves in a car accident.
I know how I felt when my boys were teens.I still worry today about their driving.
So you also have to accept that as part of the way we live today.
Murder, however, is a very different kettle of fish.

Regards,
CM.

 

[whitywendy]

Here I am back to the silly string again.
Whatever people chose to think about Darlie and her supposed innocence, you have to stand back aghast at her behaviour at the graveside.
Darlie was exhibiting, amongst other things, acceptance of the fate of her sons.
Acceptance is a stage we don't arrive at in a tragedy until we have been through all the other stages.....denial,disbelief, anger,etc, can't remember them now.
For any ordinary death, a person has trouble accepting the final loss of a loved one.
For deaths like those suffered by the little Routier boys,to come to acceptance 8 days later, and to show it in such a way is mind boggling to say the least.

Regards,
CM.

Bold by me. CM you hit it right nose there! :clap::clap:

So true, when a death is "unexpected", as such with Darlie's boys, IMO your first feeling would be SHOCK and DISBELIEF not ACCEPTANCE. She was in acceptance with the boys death from the moment she started talking on that 911 call.

When my mother suddenly died, I was in complete shock, almost fainted and then was numb for several days if not seriously years, however, when my grandmother died, whom I knew was passing because Hospice had come in a year prior to her death (she died in her sleep), I was hurting, and sad but I also had already accepted the fact that this was coming. Same thing with my Uncle who had cancer and passed away. Acceptance came immediately because I knew it was coming. Now just two weeks ago a very dear friend whom I have know since he was a little boy and his mother since I was a little girl, died in a terrible car accident in Germany. Once again I went through the shock, disbelief, denial and now I am heading toward acceptance.

I hope I made sense as to my point. In this video what the public saw was a young mother who had already accepted the fate of her two boys, telling the world how they had a long and happy life.... hmmmm total acceptance from her. Look at Darin, he still looks like a deer caught in headlights on the freeway.

Of course JMO

 

[Daphne69]

Wow! Lots of discussion after my post. That's great! I suppose, however, that I should have done a better job asking my question. After having read the transcripts and anything else I can lay my hands on, I feel she's guilty. Still, to be fair, I'd like to hear from those who think she's innocent about the knife used as a murder weapon and what the motive would have been.

1. My thinking is that there is no way it was burglary because any intruder would have had to walk by jewelry to get to the family room. But do those WSers who think she's innocent disagree?

2. If the motive is murder, who (other than family) has a motive to murder 5 and 6 year-old boys? It doesn't make sense that they would be a target.

3. If murder is the motive and Darlie (or even Darin) is the target, why kill the boys and why kill them first? Again, I can't see an outsider thinking this way.

4. The murder weapon came from the house. Okay, I can see that if it were an interrupted burglary, but it wasn't. For reasons in #1 and because no intruder was interrupted. Darlie said either he was leaving when she woke up (not a burglary interrupted) or he was on her when she woke up (then the purpose isn't to steal).

5. If the motive is murder, why would a killer take a chance on finding an appropriate weapon at the scene? Even if he did, he's clearly already armed from cutting the screen. Why add more evidence to the crime scene by searching out an additional weapon?

Jane attempted to address some of this and I appreciate that. I just wanted to know what theories or explanations those who believe she is innocent have for the stuff above. Preferably without sourcing www.fordarlieroutier.org. Because that site is run by family, I don't consider that a reliable, objective source. Do her supporters have evidence that doesn't directly or indirectly come from that particular site?

Thanks to everyone for chiming in. Great discussion.

 

[whitywendy]

Hi
Why do people who do the things they do , do the things they do ? lol

Maybe he was going to use that knife ? maybe he wasnt going to kill anyone to start with, so he used his knife to get in and then maybe one of the children stirred and he was a pyscho anyway and panicked and grabbed the kitchen knife

I honestly do not have all the answers and I do not profess to, But what I do say is that I really want Darlie to have a new trial. Why ? Because if there is ANY DOUBT (which there is a small amount of) then she should not be put to death without re investigating

I do not know if burglary or murder was the intent, as per the theory above it could have been burglary that went wrong OR it could be that he used his own knife to get in and their knife for the murder..
Wasnt there a question over one of the stab wounds on the boys as well ?

Thanks for being nice about discussing it

Jane - I don't think anyone here who believes Darlie is guilty is purposely being ugly to anyone who does not.

You post that all you want for Darlie is another day in court. I believe I read that you are on the "fence" , however, when someone tries to lead you to factual info or try to explain to you that the info that you are stating as fact has been manipulated, we are the ones being ugly.

What is your opinion of the testimony of the tiny hand print that had been wiped away prior to the arrival of the PO? What about the drops of Darlie's blood found all over that LR and Utility room - she stated herself she did not go in there. And these are drops like she was standing there thinking. What about her blood drops along the length of the sofa as if someone was moving quickly down that sofa to get to something "Damon"... was found moving along this path also. What about the bloody knife imprint in the floor? The sock found outside had a couple of blood drops on it, that it. Why was there blood found on an open photo album. What killer is going to be looking at a photo album while in the process of murder?

I thought we were all here in search of the truth. I know that is why I read all of the older posts because I was in search of the truth.

 

[accordn2me]

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: that's the FACTS plain and simple, thanks CyberLaw

No. That's CyberLaw's opinion.

 

[accordn2me]

Wow! Lots of discussion after my post. That's great! I suppose, however, that I should have done a better job asking my question. After having read the transcripts and anything else I can lay my hands on, I feel she's guilty. Still, to be fair, I'd like to hear from those who think she's innocent about the knife used as a murder weapon and what the motive would have been.

1. My thinking is that there is no way it was burglary because any intruder would have had to walk by jewelry to get to the family room. But do those WSers who think she's innocent disagree?

2. If the motive is murder, who (other than family) has a motive to murder 5 and 6 year-old boys? It doesn't make sense that they would be a target.

3. If murder is the motive and Darlie (or even Darin) is the target, why kill the boys and why kill them first? Again, I can't see an outsider thinking this way.

4. The murder weapon came from the house. Okay, I can see that if it were an interrupted burglary, but it wasn't. For reasons in #1 and because no intruder was interrupted. Darlie said either he was leaving when she woke up (not a burglary interrupted) or he was on her when she woke up (then the purpose isn't to steal).

5. If the motive is murder, why would a killer take a chance on finding an appropriate weapon at the scene? Even if he did, he's clearly already armed from cutting the screen. Why add more evidence to the crime scene by searching out an additional weapon?

Jane attempted to address some of this and I appreciate that. I just wanted to know what theories or explanations those who believe she is innocent have for the stuff above. Preferably without sourcing www.fordarlieroutier.org. Because that site is run by family, I don't consider that a reliable, objective source. Do her supporters have evidence that doesn't directly or indirectly come from that particular site?

Thanks to everyone for chiming in. Great discussion.

Motive will make you pull your hair out! :banghead: It's a good thing that prosecutors are not required to address it.

3 of your 5 numbered paragraphs begin with, "If the motive is murder," the other 2 are about a burglar. Neither one of these make sense to me. And sorry, I don't have a theory that does make sense! Here's a what if: what if it was an interrupted rape?

The reason I posted the affidavits by Linch and Laber is because I thought you were asking about evidence. Why do you think they are biased because they are posted on a site run by Darlie's family? Do you think her family forged, or made up these documents?

 

[CyberLaw]

You know with the "many" stories of Darlie's it would helpful if the poster referenced what version of the story they are going to use in their post.

Was it,she woke up when she felt pressure.

She woke up when one of her son's woke her up and a man was standing over her.

She woke up when.............

Then the next one is that one of the son's woke her up saying Mommy, but for some reason she did not wake up when her throat was cut and her children were stabbed, but when a child is saying Mommy.

Then that same child is walking and talking with two deep stab wounds to his back(lungs) and he followed her and she put her hand out to "hold him" back while she chased the man

She woke up and then ran after the man.......with no child saying Mommy.

So now that I am confused........in one story she mention "attempted" rape, in another story she woke up with the man standing over her, in another story she says that her "mortally" wounded child is walking and talking.

Oh forgot, in another story she says she woke up and was fighting the man hence the arm bruises.

OMG, the many evolving stories of Darlie. We have not heard the true story because Darlie has not confessed. She is in prision convicted by a jury of her peers. She will not get out of Jail, will not collect $200 and will die in prison.

So when people are "defending" Darlie please indicated what story you are going to base the post on.

For example: Defender, there was a rape kit done. So you are going with the story of "she felt" a man on top of her and she woke up. O.K. that is the version that you are going to use for your post.

Then if you are going to use, but one of the children was walking and talking with Darlie as she "chased" the man.

Well that is the version you can use for your post. The child would be on the floor dying as he did.

So this will help keep some confusion down. I know a former poster did "organize" the 16 different version of the story that Darlie told that night. So when you post an opinion it would be helpful if you could indicate what versions or versions of the story you are basing your post on.

Remember there are 16 different version of the story that night, so of course there are 16 different "explanation" of what happened that night.

Just please indicate which one you are using to defend Darlie.

Thank you.