Size 12 Panties

[Shylock]

There's not even any evidence that the package of size 12 panties was in the bedroom rather than in the bathroom drawer with all the other panties.

There is evidence they were not in the bathroom drawer as Patsy claimed. Although an argument from a negative, the BPD took all the panties from the drawer into evidence, and the size-12's were not in that group--therefore not in the drawer.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

The crime techs were taking panties because JonBenét had been sexually assaulted. Used panties might possibly shown signs of previous sexual assault. Brand new, packaged, unworn panties would not. The package of new panties was not collected.

Certainly, if the BPD had wanted to take the package of panties they could have whether the package was in the bathroom or the bedroom. The package of new panties was not collected because it was not thought to have forensic value.

 

[BlueCrab]

The crime techs were taking panties because JonBenét had been sexually assaulted. Used panties might possibly shown signs of previous sexual assault. Brand new, packaged, unworn panties would not. The package of new panties was not collected.

Certainly, if the BPD had wanted to take the package of panties they could have whether the package was in the bathroom or the bedroom. The package of new panties was not collected because it was not thought to have forensic value.

But the size 12 panties would not have been in the bathroom underwear drawer.

The packaged size 12's were way too big for JonBenet, even Patsy admits that. JonBenet had never worn a pair of them prior to the night she was murdered. Patsy wouldn't have kept the size 12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer in the bathroom, taking up room in the drawer. She would have kept them stored out of the way somewhere in a drawer in the bedroom or in a closet drawer.

The killer didn't think to look in the bathroom for clean size 4 or 6 underwear. It's the only common-sense explanation for JonBenet to have been wearing size 12's, a size she had NEVER worn before. The killer looked just in the bedroom and the size 12's are the only ones he could find.

JMO

 

[Shylock]

Certainly, if the BPD had wanted to take the package of panties they could have whether the package was in the bathroom or the bedroom. The package of new panties was not collected because it was not thought to have forensic value.

The detectives were in the house searching for clues well after they had the chance to read the autopsy report. They knew about the panties she was wearing. Any detective that would have found an open package of panties with the day of the week on them would have raised a red flag and taken them into evidence.

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

But the size 12 panties would not have been in the bathroom underwear drawer...

I don't know BC...We keep the size 10 leotard in wolfkid's 'gymnastics and swimsuit' drawer. She will grow into it some day...I actually pulled it out once to loan to a heavier little girl who was visiting from out-of-town. She needed something to use as a swimsuit last year. And, yes, it is still in the drawer.

...The killer didn't think to look in the bathroom for clean size 4 or 6 underwear. It's the only common-sense explanation for JonBenet to have been wearing size 12's, a size she had NEVER worn before. The killer looked just in the bedroom and the size 12's are the only ones he could find.

JMO

Then, how did he just happen to find a 'Wednesday' pair? That is a considerable coincidence, don't you think?

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

It would appear to be possible. MEDICOLEGAL INVESTIGATION has this to say:

Depending on the mechanism of abrasion, it may be called a graze, such as when a bullet sideswipes the body, a scratch when caused by a sharp edge or fingernails, or a brush burn if caused by the frictional force of rubbing against a rouch surface, as in dragging on the ground.

A scratch, especially when dry and dark brown, may resemble a burn.

Thanks, why_nutt. But, how about a pressure mark? One made by an indentation in the skin? I know these types of marks are easy to make on live skin. I did it on myself to test my theory. But, what would this type of mark look like after death?

Sorry to keep annoying you with questions...You do have a lot more info on this subject than I do...

 

[BlueCrab]

Then, how did he just happen to find a 'Wednesday' pair? That is a considerable coincidence, don't you think?

The killer could read. Each package contained seven pair of underwear, one for each day of the week.

JMO

 

[LovelyPigeon]

There's no reason to believe the package of DOW panties was anywhere except inside the drawer with the other panties.

Crime techs were looking for evidence of prior abuse when they collected panties. Brand new panties, whether in a package or not, wouldn't have such evidence on them.

I doubt it occured to any detectives that the size of the panties JonBenét was wearing were of any evidence value.

Does anyone know when the size of the panties first became of any concern to the BPD?

 

[Toth]

Perhaps the autopsy report mentioned something about the panties and after that someone noticed the CBI's report on the used panties referred to a different size?

I've never understood why this became an issue on the internet or in the "minds" of the BPD.

 

[Toltec]

I can understand why paid representatives of Polaroid would pitch their products to law enforcement or anyone else. That's what salesperson do.

But why LE would use instant camera photography for crime scene documentation is beyond me.

LP...LE needs to use Polaroids to make sure they get the picture they need. If they used 35mm..they cannot be sure they got the correct shot.

 

[Toltec]

Where were the size 12 panties kept if not in JonBenet's underwear drawer??? My belief is that LE took all of the panties in JB's drawer?

The largest size underwear JB wears is a six...not an eight, ten, or twelve. She had size 4-6 undies in her drawer for crying out loud!

Why was it important to Ramsey investigators to get the new package of panties to LE? Were the Ramseys aware that JB was found wearing size 12 panties? Or was it that one of the Ramseys placed the panties on JB only to divert attention away from them?

Remember JB's soiled pants that were turned inside out? Where are the panties? Wouldn't they have been soiled too? Did LE remove soiled panties from the home?

IMO

 

[BlueCrab]

There's no reason to believe the package of DOW panties was anywhere except inside the drawer with the other panties.

There were no size 12 or size 14 panties in JonBenet's underwear drawer in the bathroom. The size 4's and size 6's were recently put in that bathroom drawer, but not size 12's.

Michael Kane: "And I will just state a fact here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties taken out of, by the police, out of JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is that where she kept them?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Yes."

Michael Kane: "Were you describing that they were just put in that drawer?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Yes."

Michael Kane: "Okay. And every one of those was either a size 4 or a size 6. Okay? Would that have been about the size pair of panties that she wore when she was 6 years old?"

Patsy Ramsey: "I would say more like 6 to 8. There were probably some in there that were too small."

Michael Kane: "Okay, but not size 12 to 14?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Not typically. No."

Thus, it appears the perp couldn't find the panties in the underwear drawer in the bathroom because the underwear were just recently put in there. And Patsy's answers definitely excluded the size 12 underwear coming from the underwear drawer in the bathroom.

This underwear evidence is important because it strongly suggests the killer couldn't find JonBenet's underwear drawer in the bedroom where they used to be, but did find the packages of size 12 and 14 underwear in the bedroom. So he naively took a pair of those and put them on the body while trying to clean up JonBenet in his attempt to hide the sexual assault.

John and Patsy would have known where the size 4's and size 6's were kept, and they would have known better than to put size 12's on JonBenet, so, IMO, the underwear evidence strongly points to Burke as the perpetrator.

JMO

 

[Ivy]

You make a valid point, BlueCrab...but maybe the smaller panties in the bathroom drawer didn't include any Wednesday day-of-the-week ones, so Patsy opted for the too-large, size 12 Wednesday day-of-the-week panties so that JonBenet's body would be found wearing Wednesday panties, to lead investigators to think they were the same panties JonBenet had worn all day Christmas (which was on Wednesday that year).

imo

 

[LovelyPigeon]

No, no, no. Patsy didn't say she had "just" put "all" of JonBenét's panties into a drawer in the bathroom. She was answering a question about the Bloomingdale's package of DOW panties. That package had "just" been put into the underwear drawer because they were only bought in November and put into the drawer in December. "Just" meaning "very recently".

11 Q. Why is it that you remember
12 buying Bloomingdale's panties in November of
13 1996?
14 A. Because --
15 MR. WOOD: Because she remembers
16 it. I mean --
17 MR. KANE: Wait a second, Lin.
18 Would you please let her answer the question?
19 It is a simple question.
20 MR. WOOD: Why is it that you
21 remember something?
22 MR. KANE: Yes, why do you
23 remember --
24 MR. WOOD: Because she remembered.
25 Q. (By Mr. Kane) - that, that

92
1 detail?
2 A. Well, for starters, it has been
3 made such a big detail.
4 Q. Okay, well, that is my question.
5 A. I remember that I -- and I, you
6 know, we were kind of shopping around, and
7 it was close to Christmas season, so we
8 might pick up a little souvenir. I
9 bought -- I think I picked up a little
10 something for a baby-sitter, you know.
11 Q. Where was it that you became
12 aware that this was -- where was it that it
13 was made a big deal? What was the source
14 of your information that Bloomingdale's
15 panties somehow were significant that made
16 you then say, wait a second, did I ever buy
17 those?
18 MR. WOOD: Do you have a precise
19 recollection of that event occurring where
20 all of a sudden something happened and you
21 decided it was some big deal?
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
23 mean, my first thought is something in the
24 tabloids, but, you know, they get everything
25 wrong, so --

93
1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
2 aware that these were the size of panties
3 that she was wearing, and this has been
4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
6 that?
7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
8 Q. And how did you become aware of
9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.

 

[BlueCrab]

No, no, no. Patsy didn't say she had "just" put "all" of JonBenét's panties into a drawer in the bathroom. She was answering a question about the Bloomingdale's package of DOW panties. That package had "just" been put into the underwear drawer because they were only bought in November and put into the drawer in December. "Just" meaning "very recently".

11 Q. Why is it that you remember
12 buying Bloomingdale's panties in November of
13 1996?
14 A. Because --
15 MR. WOOD: Because she remembers
16 it. I mean --
17 MR. KANE: Wait a second, Lin.
18 Would you please let her answer the question?
19 It is a simple question.
20 MR. WOOD: Why is it that you
21 remember something?
22 MR. KANE: Yes, why do you
23 remember --
24 MR. WOOD: Because she remembered.
25 Q. (By Mr. Kane) - that, that

92
1 detail?
2 A. Well, for starters, it has been
3 made such a big detail.
4 Q. Okay, well, that is my question.
5 A. I remember that I -- and I, you
6 know, we were kind of shopping around, and
7 it was close to Christmas season, so we
8 might pick up a little souvenir. I
9 bought -- I think I picked up a little
10 something for a baby-sitter, you know.
11 Q. Where was it that you became
12 aware that this was -- where was it that it
13 was made a big deal? What was the source
14 of your information that Bloomingdale's
15 panties somehow were significant that made
16 you then say, wait a second, did I ever buy
17 those?
18 MR. WOOD: Do you have a precise
19 recollection of that event occurring where
20 all of a sudden something happened and you
21 decided it was some big deal?
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
23 mean, my first thought is something in the
24 tabloids, but, you know, they get everything
25 wrong, so --

93
1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
2 aware that these were the size of panties
3 that she was wearing, and this has been
4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
6 that?
7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
8 Q. And how did you become aware of
9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.

Nice try to obfuscate matters, LP, with all that unnecessary testimony. But it won't work. Kane and Patsy were discussing the 15 pairs of underwear that "were just put in that drawer", not the 12's and 14's. And where you stopped your Q's and A's in your post you left out the following critical Q's and A's, which nail it:

Q. "Okay. And every one of those was either a size 4 or a size 6. Okay? Would that have been about the size pair of panties that she wore when she was 6 years old?"

A. "I would say more like 6 to 8. There were probably some in there that were too small."

Q. "Okay, but not size 12 to 14?"

A. "Not typically, no."

THERE WERE ONLY 4'S AND 6'S IN THE UNDERWEAR DRAWER IN THE BATHROOM AND "THEY WERE JUST PUT IN THAT DRAWER".

JMO

 

[BlueCrab]

You make a valid point, BlueCrab...but maybe the smaller panties in the bathroom drawer didn't include any Wednesday day-of-the-week ones, so Patsy opted for the too-large, size 12 Wednesday day-of-the-week panties so that JonBenet's body would be found wearing Wednesday panties, to lead investigators to think they were the same panties JonBenet had worn all day Christmas (which was on Wednesday that year).

imo

What you suggest Ivy, is possible but not probable. JonBenet didn't follow the day of the week routine when putting on underwear, and that was likely widely known by others. Also, there were probably other "Wednesday" underwear in the drawer.

Tom Haney: "Did JonBenet have panties with the names of each day of the week on it?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Yes."

Tom Haney: "Okay. And did she wear those according to the day of the week or was it just kind of --?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Just whatever."

Tom Haney: "Did she know, pay much attention to what day of the week it was?"

Patsy Ramsey: "No."

Tom Haney: "So whatever would come out of the drawer?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Yes."

JMO

 

[LovelyPigeon]

That's no attempt to obfuscate. That's showing what was said before the line about "just".

And just as you misinterpreted "dress" in another post to mean a dress rather than dress pants, you misinterpreted that all the panties had just been put into the bathroom drawer.

It was only the package of size 12 DOW panties that had "just" been put into the drawer.

 

[Shylock]

you misinterpreted that all the panties had just been put into the bathroom drawer.
It was only the package of size 12 DOW panties that had "just" been put into the drawer.

Is part of this transcript being left out? Where does Patsy say she put the size 12 panties in the drawer?

 

[LovelyPigeon]

There are 20 pages of transcript with Patsy about the panties, so, yes, some is being left out here. Trying to address the pertinent part to when the panties were put into the drawer.

And to show that BC's assumption that the bathroom drawer hadn't been the usual place to keep all her panties is an incorrect assumption.

Here's some more:

1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.
4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
7 you bought them in November?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the
18 laundry for the family, that is part of her
19 duties; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash
22 clothes on occasion?
23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of
25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?

85
1 A. Not specifically.
2 Q. Was it something that, the fact
3 that she is wearing these underpants designed
4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and
5 I will give you a minute to think about it
6 because I know it is tough to try to pin
7 down a couple of months of casual
8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any
9 conversations with her concerning the fact
10 that she is wearing underwear that is just
11 too large for her?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it
14 was, if it had caught your attention or came
15 to your attention, do you think you might
16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't
17 fit, put something on that fits, that is
18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
19 had come to your attention --
20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
25 so.

86
1 I mean, if you have ever seen
2 these little panties, there is not too much
3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm
4 sure even if they were a little bit big,
5 they were special because we got them up
6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they
7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was
8 fine with me.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see
10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically
13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?
14 And I am not saying --
15 THE WITNESS: They were just in
16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I
17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all
18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can
19 help herself to whatever is in there.
20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not
21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to
22 Jenny.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in
25 JonBenet's bathroom?

87
1 A. Right.
2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm
3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then
4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet
5 express an interest in them; therefore, you
6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I
8 think I bought them with the intention of
9 sending them in a package of Christmas things
10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that
11 together, so I just put them in her, her
12 panty drawer. So they were free game.

 

[Shylock]

Thank you LP, it's always nice to have the entire transcript to refer to.

This is passage which peaks my interest:

20 Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all

If Patsy was responsible for JonBenet's death, I place my money on the probability that she flew into a rage after finding JB had opened and worn the panties she (Patsy) was planning on giving as a gift--versus any bedwetting incident.