Size 12 Panties

[LovelyPigeon]

Flew into a rage over an opened pair of panties...

Nope, doesn't even register on my suspicion meter.

P.S. -that's not the entire transcript, nor even a full page of the 20 pages on panty questions

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

It appears we've been misled once again.

JonBenet was 6 years old, 47" tall, weighed 45 pounds, and wore size 6 underwear. Here's what the packages at Walmart really say:

SIZE 6 ..... 22" waist; 39 to 49 pounds

SIZE 12 ..... 25" waist; 84 to 95 pounds

There is absolutely no way JonBenet could wear size 12 underwear. Size 12's are for a girl TWICE the size of JonBenet.

With respect to pull-ups, underwear are not needed. The pull-up is the diaper and the underwear all in one, so few mothers use underwear over pull-ups on their child. That includes Patsy Ramsey because the only size 12's in the house were in unopened packages.

JMO

BC, we buy a lot of Walmart undies.

Like I said before, my daughter is 49", 48-49 pounds. She has been in an 8 since last year when she was just about exactly JBR's size. Wolfkid is very tall and lean. She wears 'briefs,' because she hates the bikinis.

Now, my daughter is very long-waisted, so that might make a difference. I am not sure. She also likes to pull up undies to her belly-button. (Weird, because she pulls all of her pants down to her hips to be like the teenagers, lol!)

When my daughter was little, I was told by another mom to move up one size in underwear as your child approaches the next weight level.

Also, undies shrink SO much.

I personally don't think any male could have redressed JBR. My husband can't even dress Barbies, lol, let alone a grown child. Although, he did fine when she was tiny.

I certainly don't see a little boy and a teen-aged boy dressing a girl this size. It is a difficult task when they are awake (and, alive...)

Have you ever tried to change your grandaughter's clothes while she was asleep? It just can't be done past age 2, lol. Their legs are too long and their middles are too heavy to prop up while you pull on the pants.

Plus, the longjohns were tight and stretchy. I am sure the feet were fitted close to the ankles. There is no way this could have been done.

This is also the point that leads me to believe that Patsy did not dress JBR while she was asleep after they returned from the Whites. Unless the kid was drugged, she would wake up during the changing.

 

[Toth]

I place my money on the probability that she flew into a rage after finding JB had opened and worn the panties she (Patsy) was planning on giving as a gift--versus any bedwetting incident.

Hardly a likely reaction. Contrary to all known personality traits. And, the decision to keep and use the panties had already been made, it was not something that happened that night.

 

[BlueCrab]

So there's confusion between what Mike Kane said and what Patsy Ramsey said, depending where one is reading in the transcript. In my posts above I quoted what Kane said as he recapped his interview with Patsy and cut through the obsfuscations -- there were 15 pair of underwear in the bathroom panty drawer and they were all size 4 and size 6 and none were size 12. Patsy reluctantly agreed.

Mike Kane: "And every one of those was either a size 4 or a size 6."

Patsy Ramsey: "There were probably some in there that were too small."

Mike Kane: "But not size 12 to 14?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Not typically. No."

JMO

 

[Shylock]

And, the decision to keep and use the panties had already been made, it was not something that happened that night.

Already been made according to whom?--The primary suspect, that's who. As if we should believe a word she says.

 

[why_nutt]

Hardly a likely reaction. Contrary to all known personality traits. And, the decision to keep and use the panties had already been made, it was not something that happened that night.

Contrary to all known personality traits, Patsy was so stressed on Christmas day that she did not send out the family Christmas cards or finish wrapping presents until that day (previous to that day, Patsy was known to all her friends and family as someone who spent a great deal of time preparing well in advance for projects she wanted to accomplish). Contrary to all known personality traits, Patsy sobbed hysterically on the morning of December 26th (previous to that day, Patsy was known to friends and family as someone who took charge of what needed to be done, who kept her calm even in the face of her own death from cancer and the death of her husband's favorite daughter). Contrary to all known personality traits, Patsy turned to the drug Valium to soothe her soul instead of prayer on the evening of December 26th (previous to that day, friends and family have not mentioned Patsy as someone who needed help from drugs to maintain her composure, because, see number two above, she was incapable of losing control of her emotions; she did not even seek out tranquilizing drugs when she had a panic attack during her cancer treatment).

In a period of 24 hours, Patsy did things and behaved in ways she never had before. Even if you want to believe she is innocent, acknowledge that Patsy, on the record, behaved contrary to all known personality traits.

 

[Toth]

How many posters here would you consider have probably been late with gift giving obligations?

Do you consider sobbing hysterically when your daughter has been kidnapped to be wrong?

 

[Shylock]

Do you consider sobbing hysterically when your daughter has been kidnapped to be wrong?

I consider it wrong when the mother of a missing child doesn't get off her butt and run to see why someone in the house is yelling to "call 911"--especially when everyone else in the room runs to see what is happening.
Of course Patsy already knew what they had found in the basement, so there was no reason for her to get up.

 

[why_nutt]

How many posters here would you consider have probably been late with gift giving obligations?

Do you consider sobbing hysterically when your daughter has been kidnapped to be wrong?

Patsy is not to be compared to other people like forum members; she is to be compared to herself when utilizing the principle "look not only at what is unusual, but what is usual." For Patsy in 1996, loving Christmas but not engaging in the usual Christmas activities which gave her so much pleasure, like writing out Christmas cards, was indeed unusual. For Patsy in 1996, sobbing hysterically under any circumstances instead of dictating to the police officers what they should and should not be doing to get her daughter back now was indeed unusual. In my opinion, Patsy was not in a mood to celebrate. She did not want to throw her usual Christmas parties for friends, she did not want to go to Charlevoix, she did not want to let JonBenet enjoy herself at the mountaintop Christmas star, and the very best present she had bought JonBenet, the My Twinn doll, was utterly rejected by JonBenet, who loved a paper jewelry toy from a distant relative much more. I ask you a question in response: Do you truly believe that Patsy was having the time of her life and having a great deal of fun while being rejected by her daughter on Christmas morning and then later in the day?

 

[Toth]

and the very best present she had bought JonBenet, the My Twinn doll, was utterly rejected by JonBenet, who loved a paper jewelry toy from a distant relative much more.

And what little girl doesn't reject the expensive present and enjoy more throwing the "peanut" packaging all over the carpet? What kid doesn't from time to time get an expensive present but instead play with the vacuum cleaner hose? Do these things lead to murder?

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Patsy was restrained by her friends initially, but entered the room where JonBenét was anyway. JR told her before she came into the room that JBR was dead.

Patsy didn't know why FW was yelling for an ambulance after going into the basement alone with JR. Everyone in the house may have thought something had happened to JR in the basement and that he was in need of medical assistance.

 

[Ivy]

No, you've got it wrong, LP.

PMPT (pb) p. 18

Holding her [JonBenet] by the waist like a plank of wood, he [John] raced down the short hallway and up the basement stairs, yelling that JonBenet had been found. White had preceded Ramsey, shouting for an ambulance.

p. 19

...Patsy sat for a moment on a couch at the rear of the house looking out a window. She did not move despite all the shouting that JonBenet had been found.

p.20

Finally, Barbara Fernie led Patsy by the hand toward JonBenet.

imo

 

[Cypros]

Patsy didn't know why FW was yelling for an ambulance after going into the basement alone with JR. Everyone in the house may have thought something had happened to JR in the basement and that he was in need of medical assistance.

Oh Pleeeze. A young child has gone missing during the night; there is a threatening ransom note; the police have been called; everybody is focused on finding this child; the father goes down into the basement and begins screaming.... Are you implying that any normal MOTHER is going to first think that something has happened to her husband?! I don't think so.

As for Patsy's reaction (quietly staring out the window) when her husband began yelling, this does not in itself indicate that she already knew exactly what had happened to her daughter. An innocent mother, considering the disappearance at night and the note, would be fearing for her daughter's life. It depends a lot on WHAT JR was yelling. If he was saying "I found her! I found her!" this could mean she was alive and an unaware Patsy would be expected to run to him hoping her daughter was found safe. If he was yelling "Oh my god! No! No! No! They killed my baby!" (or anything like that), an innocent Patsy, sitting in the rear of the house, could have frozen as her worst fears, her gut feeling, were realized. What were JR's exact words as he ran up the stairs with JBR?

 

[Barbara]

And what little girl doesn't reject the expensive present and enjoy more throwing the "peanut" packaging all over the carpet? What kid doesn't from time to time get an expensive present but instead play with the vacuum cleaner hose? Do these things lead to murder?

Apparently!

BTW, children have been murdered for lesser reasons

 

[LovelyPigeon]

PMPT had the story wrong about PR. The Ramseys corrected that story themselves in their book. Arndt did also.

White ran upstairs ahead of John, yelling for an ambulance. I think I would have panic over my husband under the same circumstances, afraid he might have had a heart attack under the pressure of the situation.

John screamed when he picked up JonBenét. He didn't shout that JonBenét had been found.

I can remind you that Hunter said publically that the Ramseys book was correct about revelations it made. He never said such a thing about PMPT.

 

[Shylock]

PMPT had the story wrong about PR. The Ramseys corrected that story themselves in their book. Arndt did also.

"The panicked Fleet White ran up the stairs, grabbed a telephone and punched in a few numbers, then hung up. He ran back toward the basement, yelling for someone to call an ambulance, as if he had forgotten a detective was standing right there.
Patsy Ramsey was in the den with friends, and when White shouted, Priscilla White and Barbara Fernie hurried toward the sound. Patsy did not move from the couch."
(Steve Thomas P. 28)

 

[Toth]

Apparently!
BTW, children have been murdered for lesser reasons

Usually by drug crazed boozed up single-parent hippies with a file a yard long at CPS and police headquarters.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Was it Arndt who said White ran to the phone in the study?

If so, no one in the study had to "hurry toward the sound" very far.

Much ado about nothing here, once again.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Steve Thomas said in his deposition for the Ramsey vs Thomas case that the "panty investigation" didn't begin til after he had resigned.

I think the crime techs were no focused at all on the size of the panties JBR was wearing or the new package the new panties came from, but only on looking for possible signs of previous abuse that might be found on worn panties.

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

Usually by drug crazed boozed up single-parent hippies with a file a yard long at CPS and police headquarters.

No, Toth. There is a first time for everything.

Many would argue that Patsy's religious zeal represented a type of psychosis. And the children who were subjected to the 'Jesus' banter day-in and day-out were emotionally abused by a slightly 'off' parent.

It wouldn't take much for Patsy to snap, imo, if her regular pre-murder personality was anything like her post-murder one. I have never seen that woman act quite right. She seems almost childlike at times.