Size 12 Panties

[tipper]

Why would I need any? Is there some law of nature I don't know about that says a person who doesn't spank their children isn't capable of flying into a harmful rage? Sorry, but people reach a breaking point and act crazy every day. Some of those people have no prior history to indicate they would ever reach that point.

Besides that, we know Patsy was a weird bird. Normal mothers don't put their kids into child beauty pageants. Normal adults don't have open houses and lay out all their old trophy awards for people to see. Normal people don't stage their own personal high school reunion so they can post old photos of themself and display their old pageant trophies for all of their schoolmates to see.

Nomal Southern mothers do as well as some in other parts of the country. At our former house we were asked about putting it on the house tour and we're relatively normal and I think the Miss America/beauty pageant stuff was probably considered of potential public interest for the tour. I must have missed the story about staging her own personal high school reunion. It doesn't ring any bells.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

I was just at Walmart and had an extra minute. The waist size recommended for size 6 is 22" and for 12 is 25". That seemed to hold true for all manufacturers.

Thank you tipper, for taking the time to compare those sizes.

A 3" difference in the waist certainly wouldn't have the size 12 panties falling off of JonBenét. The panties might have been below her natural waist but they would have "'fit" nonetheless.

JonBenét's weight and height are in the mid-to-slightly- upper-range for children her age. She was, of course, small because she was only 6, but she was not "tiny" for her age. She was normal size for her age group.

 

[BlueCrab]

Thank you tipper, for taking the time to compare those sizes.

A 3" difference in the waist certainly wouldn't have the size 12 panties falling off of JonBenét. The panties might have been below her natural waist but they would have "'fit" nonetheless.

JonBenét's weight and height are in the mid-to-slightly- upper-range for children her age. She was, of course, small because she was only 6, but she was not "tiny" for her age. She was normal size for her age group.

LP, I respectfully disagree. The over-all size of size 6 vs. size 12 is significant. There's twice as much material in size 12 panties. It's not just the size at the waist that helps keep them up. It doesn't make any sense for JonBenet to put on size 12 when her underwear drawer was full of panties that fit.

Also, if JonBenet had been wearing size 12 underwear, Patsy would likely have noticed it when she pulled the black velvet pants off her and put the longjohns on her before putting JonBenet to bed. Size 12's would have unwantingly slipped off with the pants and Patsy would have noticed it and remembered it.

Those size 12's were obviously put on JonBenet by the killer who wiped her down and tried to hide the sexual aspects of the crime after he killed her. Only a family member would have tried to hide the sexual assault.

JMO

 

[BlueCrab]

I don't know where my post went but I wanted to discuss JonBenet's SOILED play pants found on the floor, turned inside out. Where were the soiled panties...or did JonBenet even change panties when she dressed for the Whites dinner party?

Good question Toltec. If the turned-inside-out pants were soiled, then the panties she was wearing must have been a real mess. Where are they?

It suggests that JonBenet did indeed have to be significantly cleaned up before going to the White's. It suggests that mom would have been involved in cleaning up her daughter and perhaps dressing her in the proper size panties. Patsy certainly wouldn't have put size 12's on JonBenet.

But time likely running out, they left the soiled pants in the middle of JonBenet's bathroom floor -- stinky and all.

Patsy doesn't remember even seeing the soiled pants on the floor, even though she had to go into the bathroom to get JonBenet's longjohns that night. So where are the soiled PANTIES? They at least would have to be rinsed out, and I doubt JonBenet would do that. Only Patsy would have rinsed out the badly soiled panties, and she would have remembered it.

What is Patsy hiding by "not remembering"? Is she hiding the fact that she herself put size 6 panties on JonBenet before they went to the White's, even though JonBenet was wearing size 12 panties when her dead body was found? I think so. I think she is shielding Burke, the only person in the house who would have put size 12 panties on JonBenet.

JMO

 

[cookie]

I really don't understand the reasoning for changing panties at all, even if she was molested. Why would there be a need to change underwear when it would have been pulled down in the first place? What makes anyone think that she was ever wearing another pair at all? Is it because Patsy says that she dressed her in the long johns, and she wasn't wearing the size 12's then? If so, why would anyone who thinks she is guilty, believe her about that?

 

[BlueCrab]

I really don't understand the reasoning for changing panties at all, even if she was molested. Why would there be a need to change underwear when it would have been pulled down in the first place? What makes anyone think that she was ever wearing another pair at all? Is it because Patsy says that she dressed her in the long johns, and she wasn't wearing the size 12's then? If so, why would anyone who thinks she is guilty, believe her about that?

Why change the panties? My guess is BLOOD! The killer wanted to hide the sexual assault so, when he put the original panties back on JonBenet, blood from her vagina likely seeped onto the panties and he had to change them to hide the blood. He cleaned up that part of the body and put fresh panties on her because he wanted it to look like a kidnapping, not a sex-related murder. He had no way to know that additional blood would seep onto the fresh pair of panties -- the ridiculous size 12 ones he put on her.

JMO

 

[Shylock]

I disagree.

Then you must live in an area full of strange birds.

 

[Shylock]

PATSY RAMSEY: "Oh yeah. I am sure she would have had clean underwear on the 25th, though, she'd just not have taken a bath."

Remember, we are talking about a woman who wrote a fake ransom note. She's not exactly credible in what she says...

 

[Shylock]

Why change the panties? My guess is BLOOD! The killer wanted to hide the sexual assault so, when he put the original panties back on JonBenet, blood from her vagina likely seeped onto the panties and he had to change them to hide the blood. He cleaned up that part of the body and put fresh panties on her because he wanted it to look like a kidnapping, not a sex-related murder. He had no way to know that additional blood would seep onto the fresh pair of panties -- the ridiculous size 12 ones he put on her.

I won't deny that it's possible, BlueCrab. But also keep in mind that of the three Ramseys in the house, John would have been the least likely to know where JB's clean panties were stored. Patsy would have known for sure. Burke may have known, because being a kid, he probably played in that bathroom and had investigated every drawer in the house.

 

[why_nutt]

Why change the panties? My guess is BLOOD! The killer wanted to hide the sexual assault so, when he put the original panties back on JonBenet, blood from her vagina likely seeped onto the panties and he had to change them to hide the blood. He cleaned up that part of the body and put fresh panties on her because he wanted it to look like a kidnapping, not a sex-related murder. He had no way to know that additional blood would seep onto the fresh pair of panties -- the ridiculous size 12 ones he put on her.

JMO

Small factoid: In DOI, Patsy made a point of writing that John is very squeamish at the sight of blood. Conveniently, JonBenet's killer made sure that John was spared the sight of JonBenet's blood.

Fact to note: While the crotch of the underwear had blood stains, the crotch of the longjohns did not, indicating the longjohns were separated by some distance from the underwear at the time the blood was deposited, even while both were in contact with JonBenet's body. Supplemental fact: the blood on the underwear had left no equivalent stains or dried blood on JonBenet's labia where, by any reasonable standard of evidence, blood should have been left. Blood cannot leak out of a vagina onto underwear without passing across both the labia majora and labia minora.

Fact: The CBI found bloodstains belonging to JonBenet on her nightgown, her shirt and the blanket. Supplemental fact: It is impossible for JonBenet to have bled onto her shirt, the blanket and the nightgown from her vagina unless all these items were shoved up her crotch at some point.

Theory: The person who assaulted JonBenet did not realize she would bleed as much as she did. I will go with the premise BlueCrab presents that JonBenet was not wearing the size 12 panties at the time of assault. I theorize that JonBenet was assaulted and began to bleed. The killer carried JonBenet's own blood from, let us say, her hands to JonBenet's shirt, the nightgown and the blanket (and as I recall a small smear of blood was found on JonBenet's leg), all in a short time but in such small amounts that the volume of blood on shirt, nightgown and blanket was not easily detectable. The volume of blood on the underwear being worn was, however, obvious. To spare John the sight of blood on his daughter's crotch, the killer removed what underwear were being worn and replaced them with the size 12s. It was only upon seeing that JonBenet's body continued to leak blood (not actively bleed as a living person would, but leak as dead bodies are capable of), that the killer then took one last bit of effort to wipe JonBenet's labia clean and then pull the size 12s up once and for all.

Bonus question: I would like to know if JonBenet owned any dark underwear. It is not impossible. If that were true, the dark fibers on her crotch may represent her very own underwear having been used to wipe her clean of blood, with said underwear being tossed into one of, let us also say, 40 purses in the house, none of which would be an immediate target for a police search for evidence. And if that purse were removed from the house by a grieving mother or, days later, her helpful sister, who would know?

 

[little1]

Then you must live in an area full of strange birds.

Oh please, I just disagree, get over it.

 

[BlueCrab]

Small factoid: In DOI, Patsy made a point of writing that John is very squeamish at the sight of blood. Conveniently, JonBenet's killer made sure that John was spared the sight of JonBenet's blood.

Fact to note: While the crotch of the underwear had blood stains, the crotch of the longjohns did not, indicating the longjohns were separated by some distance from the underwear at the time the blood was deposited, even while both were in contact with JonBenet's body. Supplemental fact: the blood on the underwear had left no equivalent stains or dried blood on JonBenet's labia where, by any reasonable standard of evidence, blood should have been left. Blood cannot leak out of a vagina onto underwear without passing across both the labia majora and labia minora.

Fact: The CBI found bloodstains belonging to JonBenet on her nightgown, her shirt and the blanket. Supplemental fact: It is impossible for JonBenet to have bled onto her shirt, the blanket and the nightgown from her vagina unless all these items were shoved up her crotch at some point.

Theory: The person who assaulted JonBenet did not realize she would bleed as much as she did. I will go with the premise BlueCrab presents that JonBenet was not wearing the size 12 panties at the time of assault. I theorize that JonBenet was assaulted and began to bleed. The killer carried JonBenet's own blood from, let us say, her hands to JonBenet's shirt, the nightgown and the blanket (and as I recall a small smear of blood was found on JonBenet's leg), all in a short time but in such small amounts that the volume of blood on shirt, nightgown and blanket was not easily detectable. The volume of blood on the underwear being worn was, however, obvious. To spare John the sight of blood on his daughter's crotch, the killer removed what underwear were being worn and replaced them with the size 12s. It was only upon seeing that JonBenet's body continued to leak blood (not actively bleed as a living person would, but leak as dead bodies are capable of), that the killer then took one last bit of effort to wipe JonBenet's labia clean and then pull the size 12s up once and for all.

Bonus question: I would like to know if JonBenet owned any dark underwear. It is not impossible. If that were true, the dark fibers on her crotch may represent her very own underwear having been used to wipe her clean of blood, with said underwear being tossed into one of, let us also say, 40 purses in the house, none of which would be an immediate target for a police search for evidence. And if that purse were removed from the house by a grieving mother or, days later, her helpful sister, who would know?

Excellent post Why_Nut. However, I'm convinced Patsy would not have put size 12's on JonBenet. Only Burke or a young accomplice would have done that. Patsy knew where JonBenet's underwear were kept and would have gotten normal size 6's. Also, in my BDI theory I think the accomplice (the intruder who Burke knew and had invited into the house) wore his dark blue shirt out of the house and carried the bloody underwear and all of the other missing crime scene evidence out of the house when he left undetected in the wee hours of the morning. It's the only practical solution to all of the other missing items of evidence (the cord, the duct tape, the nine pages from the notebook, the possible stun gun, the tip of the paint brush handle, the murder weapon, etc.).

JMO

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Y'all propose that the killer had JonBenét's panties completely off of her or pulled down, sexually assaulted her, noticed that she was bleeding, then put her panties back on or pulled her panties up not realizing that blood would get on the panties when they were pulled back up.

Then the killer checks the pulled up panties to see if blood is on them, sees blood on them, takes them back off, puts them into a purse so the police won't find them.

Then the killer opens a package of new size 12 panties in the drawer, puts those panties on JonBenét, doesn't check to see if blood drops onto the crotch, then pulls on longjohns over the panties.

And the killer does this to spare John seeing blood on his daughter because he's squeamish?

Is that what you've have us to believe?

 

[Nehemiah]

Nomal Southern mothers do as well as some in other parts of the country. At our former house we were asked about putting it on the house tour and we're relatively normal and I think the Miss America/beauty pageant stuff was probably considered of potential public interest for the tour. I must have missed the story about staging her own personal high school reunion. It doesn't ring any bells.

I must agree with you, Tipper. I have posted before that I believe the pageant thing to be very cultural, as well as home tours. There are beauty pageants galore where I live for kids (boys and girls) from birth thru college. Home tours are very popular, especially for charity events. Patsy has taken some hits for not finding the right color lipstick in Boulder, and that would be a concern of mine, too. The South is an island unto itself.

IMO

 

[little1]

I must agree with you, Tipper. I have posted before that I believe the pageant thing to be very cultural, as well as home tours. There are beauty pageants galore where I live for kids (boys and girls) from birth thru college. Home tours are very popular, especially for charity events. Patsy has taken some hits for not finding the right color lipstick in Boulder, and that would be a concern of mine, too. The South is an island unto itself.

IMO

It is true, we live in a seperate world down here....I do love it though!

 

[Britt]

It makes sense to me that (a living) JB would wear underwear that fit, and not oversized, baggy ones. It also makes sense that the oversized underwear might be worn over pullups for aesthetic and psychological reasons for a six-year-old beauty queen with toileting problems. Obviously, image is an issue in this family.

The oversized underwear IMO supports a toileting-issue scenario: either the regular-sized Wednesday panties were soiled and replaced with the only other Wednesday panties available... OR the oversized undies were worn over pullups that night prior to the incident that killed JB, with the pullups then being discarded, leaving the undies.

The only reason to switch underwear or discard pullups was to hide the truth of what triggered the incident, i.e. a toileting issue, just like Thomas says.

With any other scenario, I agree with the folks who don't see any purpose in switching the underwear.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

It seems pretty obvious that JonBenét didn't wear size 12 panties everyday, since her drawer was full of size 6 panties. There weren't worn & washed size 12 panties around the house that had been worn over pull-ups, for those who theorize that was the reason for the size 12 package.

JonBenét occasionally wore pull-ups to sleep in, but certainly not every night. We don't even know how often, or when was the last occasion she wore them at night.

The package of new size 12s was in the drawer with the other panties, Patsy had agreed that JonBenét could have them, and JonBenét put on a pair that particular afternoon to wear to the Whites. That makes the most logical sense to me.

 

[BlueCrab]

It seems pretty obvious that JonBenét didn't wear size 12 panties everyday, since her drawer was full of size 6 panties. There weren't worn & washed size 12 panties around the house that had been worn over pull-ups, for those who theorize that was the reason for the size 12 package.

JonBenét occasionally wore pull-ups to sleep in, but certainly not every night. We don't even know how often, or when was the last occasion she wore them at night.

The package of new size 12s was in the drawer with the other panties, Patsy had agreed that JonBenét could have them, and JonBenét put on a pair that particular afternoon to wear to the Whites. That makes the most logical sense to me.

It makes the lease sense to me. She had a drawer full of 4's and 6's that fit her. JonBenet wouldn't put size 12 panties on herself to go the White's no more than she would have worn Patsy's shoes, or Patsy's slacks, or anything else twice her size. Six-year-olds can be quite fussy about their clothes when getting ready to go somewhere.

Moreover, I think JonBenet had Patsy's help getting ready to go to the White's because it was getting late, as evidenced by the stinky play pants left in the middle of the bathroom floor. Patsy admitted it wouldn't be normal for JonBenet to be wearing size 12 underwear, so I doubt she would have opened a package of size 12 underwear and put them on JonBenet.

JMO

 

[Shylock]

The package of new size 12s was in the drawer with the other panties, Patsy had agreed that JonBenét could have them, and JonBenét put on a pair that particular afternoon to wear to the Whites. That makes the most logical sense to me.

There is a big problem though LovelyPigeon. Patsy says the package was in the drawer with the other panties. The BPD took all the panties from that drawer into evidence and the package wasn't there.

That area was well searched even days after the crime when all the detectives knew what panties she was found in. Still the package wasn't found and taken into evidence. Later, the package is handed over to LE by the Ramseys.

It appears Patsy was lying about the entire panty issue. There is no other way the BPD could have missed an open package of panties that match what she was found dead in. Remember that their search was so thorough that they removed the toilet from the floor and checked the sewer line.

Additionally, you say, " Patsy had agreed that JonBenét could have them." Why would Patsy agree JB could have panties that were bought to be given as a gift? Why would Patsy store "gift" panties in JB underwear drawer?

 

[Shylock]

Y'all propose that the killer had JonBenét's panties completely off of her or pulled down, sexually assaulted her, noticed that she was bleeding, then put her panties back on or pulled her panties up not realizing that blood would get on the panties when they were pulled back up.

If that's what happened, only a kid would be that stupid--a 10 year old.