Skull fracture question

[BOESP]

Those injuries, while consistant with "shaken baby syndrome", could have come from the severe blow that caused the fracture. A blow that hard would not only fracture the skull, but anything hard enough to knock out a piece of the skull would certainly cause the brain to slam against the skull.

Yes, the blow that displaced her skull could certainly account for much of the brain damage. If we consider the displaced section is toward the middle back of the cranium and if JonBenet's head hit something rather than being hit with a weapon, it doesn't seem likely she would get the type "bruising" indicated on the left and right sides of the brain. Even if she was struck with a weapon, the concussion should most likely appear in the front and back sections of the brain (described as anterior and posterior in the public autopsy).

The "bruising" on the sides of the brain would be consistent with being grabbed by her shirt collar and pushed, shoved, or otherwise "man-handled" into submission. This type action, if done by a forceful adult, would likely leave "shaken-baby syndrome" evidence. It also matches the external damage, i.e. marks on her neck that are not explained by the ligature device. Of course, this part of the damage could also be from someone trying to revive her after she hit her head (as suggested by Solace several weeks ago) or, as you also said, it could be caused from whatever displaced the skull segment but that doesn't seem as likely to me.

 

[JMO8778]

The "bruising" on the sides of the brain would be consistent with being grabbed by her shirt collar and pushed, shoved, or otherwise "man-handled" into submission. This type action, if done by a forceful adult, would likely leave "shaken-baby syndrome" evidence. It also matches the external damage, i.e. marks on her neck that are not explained by the ligature device.

that's what I was thinking..I wonder if the thumb print on her neck got there as she was pushed into something,causing the head injury.She hit with such force,it seems there would surely be some indication on her that could be demonstrated to be the result of being pushed backwards,and the mark on her neck would seem the most likely.

 

[UKGuy]

that's what I was thinking..I wonder if the thumb print on her neck got there as she was pushed into something,causing the head injury.She hit with such force,it seems there would surely be some indication on her that could be demonstrated to be the result of being pushed backwards,and the mark on her neck would seem the most likely.

JMO8778,
It appears someone manually asphyxiated JonBenet with the aid of some fabric e.g. shirt collar, either this and the head blow were concurrent e.g. as the result of her falling due to the manual asphyxiation, or a follow up blow to her head, it may have occurred the other way round e.g. a head blow followed by a manual asphyxiation.

Either way with no ER or 911 dialled for medical assistance, and the subsequent staging this demonstrates a deliberate decision was taken to kill her!


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
It appears someone manually asphyxiated JonBenet with the aid of some fabric e.g. shirt collar, either this and the head blow were concurrent e.g. as the result of her falling due to the manual asphyxiation,

I don't think she fell and recieved that 8 1/2 in. crack in her skull from such.

or a follow up blow to her head,

could be,I don't rule that out.we had talked here about her head possibly being struck twice.

it may have occurred the other way round e.g. a head blow followed by a manual asphyxiation.

I don't think so though..for one thing,if she's out from the head blow,why bother to manually strangle her,thus leaving the telltale marks on her neck?
another thing I think we have to take into account are Patsy's own words..(esp.when she talks and doesn't mean to let the cat out of the bag,so to speak).She said she had flashbacks of JB screaming...JB would have to have a patent airway for that.She also described her own panic attacks 'as if she were being strangled,gasping for air'.I think this is projection onto herself,for what she did to JB.Again,JB would need a patent airway in order to be gasping for air.As well in describing a feeling of being strangled,JB would have to be conscious for that.
SO in taking into account ALL of the evidence,it appears JB was manually strangled *first.

Either way with no ER or 911 dialled for medical assistance, and the subsequent staging this demonstrates a deliberate decision was taken to kill her!


.

I really don't have a hard time believing that at all,seeing as she had that 8 1/2 in. skull fracture.
But Patsy may have went and gotten JR,only for him to have nixed calling 911,due to what Wecht said: her father would have been arrested,had she been examined in the ER.

 

[DeeDee249]

The head blow, as I mentioned, would in and of itself, cause the brain to slam against the skull. But the damage could also have happened if PR was shaking her violenly by the scruff of her collar. We KNOW the head blow happened. We can only theorize about the rest.
Yes, I believe JR WAS worried about anyone examining his daughter while alive. There had been vaginal bleeding. That alone would have caused the arrest of people in the home.
Now...the examining of his daughter after death was another matter. An autopsy shows WHAT and HOW, not neccessarily WHO (unless there is DNA or other evidence). So if a death scene is alterered to suggest a manner of death that COULD have happened (ligature strangulation)- I BET it was hoped that the investigation would go no further. Dead little girl with obvious signs of strangulation (petechiae- deep neck furrow) PLUS ligature around her neck equals a little girl who was strangled to death. End of Story. What they did NOT anticipate was the peeling back of her scalp- revealing the awful fracture and hole. And the slicing into her vagina revealing bruising, trauma, blood, and erosion. THOSE painted a slightly different picture of that night. It isn't the way JBR died that makes me suspect her family. It is the way her death was STAGED that makes me suspect them.

 

[JMO8778]

Now...the examining of his daughter after death was another matter.

yes,and not to mention,no worry of her ever talking again.

An autopsy shows WHAT and HOW, not neccessarily WHO (unless there is DNA or other evidence). So if a death scene is alterered to suggest a manner of death that COULD have happened (ligature strangulation)- I BET it was hoped that the investigation would go no further. Dead little girl with obvious signs of strangulation (petechiae- deep neck furrow) PLUS ligature around her neck equals a little girl who was strangled to death. End of Story.

I totally agree.

What they did NOT anticipate was the peeling back of her scalp- revealing the awful fracture and hole. And the slicing into her vagina revealing bruising, trauma, blood, and erosion. THOSE painted a slightly different picture of that night. It isn't the way JBR died that makes me suspect her family. It is the way her death was STAGED that makes me suspect them.

absolutely.
esp. her being wiped down and redressed in new underwear,clean LJ's (which I think likely came right of out the dryer,along with the blanket),and covered.

 

[BOESP]

I don't think Patsy necessarily or purposely held JonBenet's head or purposely applied pressure with the intent of malice. Solace explained it best when she speculated that Patsy grabbed JonBenet by the collar, twisting and shoving and pushing her into a door, doorknob or other object. Or, if Patsy pushed and then JonBenet fell to the floor hitting her head or Patsy fell on top of her, that could also create a relatively low-velocity/high-pressure impact that would probably widen and lengthen the already formed fracture.

Alternatively, perhaps JonBenet was lying on the floor being cleaned and raised her head, struggling to get up, and Patsy pushed her back in anger, or some variation of this idea.

JonBenet could have been in the bathtub and slipped and fallen and Patsy grabbed her head. I think it's fairly conclusive that someone also violently shook JonBenet's head because of the damage described in the autopsy that is similar to Shaken-Baby Syndrome. If Patsy grabbed JonBenet by the head and shook her then the head hit something, that would also provide pressure.

There are probably other possibilities. As to the noise, I don't know whether a strike or a dull blow would cause more noise.

I also think Solace was on to something when she said she thought the two sets of pony-tails might have been used to hold the fracture together. I do believe that depression and the fracture could be manually felt from the outside. I would say a Mother would, if their child hit their head, probably feel around on the head to see where the damage was.

Just bumping this topic since it is very relevant to JonBenet's head injury. I don't think she was struck, based on the skull damage. I think she was the moving object that hit an immobile object.

 

[Ravyn]

I'm trying to really understand the lack of blood,looking at the skull and the crack all the way down....But I'm not an expert here...Then at times I think the skull looks to big for a 6 year old...Just me wishing that this never happen to a small child....

 

[Ravyn]

But being thrown maybe the dresser leg...If I remember right someone said the tray was on the floor and I think hair ties was all over the floor...So if JonBenet was thrown maybe it got knock off...And since the statement about not seeing any blood and the LE thought headboard maybe this was a way to get them not to look at the dresser or anything else in the room....

 

[BOESP]

But being thrown maybe the dresser leg...If I remember right someone said the tray was on the floor and I think hair ties was all over the floor...So if JonBenet was thrown maybe it got knock off...And since the statement about not seeing any blood and the LE thought headboard maybe this was a way to get them not to look at the dresser or anything else in the room....

Yes, there are several possibilities for JonBenet being thrown or pushed or pulled into a blunt object.

 

[DeeDee249]

But being thrown maybe the dresser leg...If I remember right someone said the tray was on the floor and I think hair ties was all over the floor...So if JonBenet was thrown maybe it got knock off...And since the statement about not seeing any blood and the LE thought headboard maybe this was a way to get them not to look at the dresser or anything else in the room....

Actually, those "hair ties" on the floor may have been little fabric covered elastic loops to her potholder loom. The little red loom can be seen on her nightstand next to her bed. Anyone not familiar with this toy might see those loops and think they were hair ties. They look similar.

Try these links http://www.acandyrose.com/000dresser.jpg

and http://www.acandyrose.com/000jonbenetsbedroom.jpg

 

[DeeDee249]

If the coroner had felt she'd been thrown or pushed into something as opposed to being hit with something, I believe he'd have noted that. A coroner can tell the difference. It makes a big difference as far as the crime too. She hits something = accident. (and maybe no crime). Something hits her = murder. A crime.

 

[BOESP]

If the coroner had felt she'd been thrown or pushed into something as opposed to being hit with something, I believe he'd have noted that. A coroner can tell the difference. It makes a big difference as far as the crime too. She hits something = accident. (and maybe no crime). Something hits her = murder. A crime.

Blunt force trauma would cover either situation. I'd have to recheck the autopsy report to be sure but I believe that is the terminology the coroner used. JonBenet hitting something or something hitting her, either way, can be a homicide.

 

[JMO8778]

From looking at that 2nd pic of JB's room,I wonder if she could have been thrown into that curved bedpost sticking out.

 

[madeleine]

If the coroner had felt she'd been thrown or pushed into something as opposed to being hit with something, I believe he'd have noted that. A coroner can tell the difference. It makes a big difference as far as the crime too. She hits something = accident. (and maybe no crime). Something hits her = murder. A crime.

@bold
Yep and that's why it makes me so mad that in this case he didn't spend more time looking at those abrasions or whatever they are.:furious: Those are one of the key pieces of the puzzle IMO.

 

[madeleine]

I am really beginning to question that autopsy report and the coroner here.Everything in it is so...........Ramsey-ish!We don't have an exact COD,nor do we have the exact TOD.Abrasions bla bla bla........I am not satisfied with this at ALL.We don't know if she was sexually assaulted or not.It's all so.............confusing and VAGUE.Remember the DA's people actions re releasing the body.They basically made sure the body won't be tested for MORE evidence.Makes you sick,really.

 

[DeeDee249]

I am really beginning to question that autopsy report and the coroner here.Everything in it is so...........Ramsey-ish!We don't have an exact COD,nor do we have the exact TOD.Abrasions bla bla bla........I am not satisfied with this at ALL.We don't know if she was sexually assaulted or not.It's all so.............confusing and VAGUE.Remember the DA's people actions re releasing the body.They basically made sure the body won't be tested for MORE evidence.Makes you sick,really.

Absolutely correct! And Ramsey-ish is the perfect description. Vague, certainly. And I'd bet deliberately so. Otherwise, why not put in the report what the coroner allegedly told those present at the autopsy about his opinions on sexual assault? Maybe he was "instructed" not to put it in writing. And as we know...Det, Arndt has "amnesia" in the case now.
It can't have been an oversight that the two most basic procedures when a coroner first examines a body- liver stab and vitreous eye fluid extraction- which determine TOD with a high degree of accuracy, were NOT done. He spent 10 MINUTES with her. That's it. When a coroner or called to the decedent's location, especially when it is a crime scene, he should have whatever is needed to complete those tests with him. This was not just sloppy work- it was suspicious, IMO.

 

[cynic]

And as we know...Det, Arndt has "amnesia" in the case now.

There are many infuriating elements in this case; the Arndt “amnesia” is definitely high on my list.
It’s one thing to try and punish your boss for some perceived wrong, but to essentially obstruct justice, that is taking it way too far and is completely outrageous. Did money change hands, or did she fall under the same “spell” as Lou Smit?

 

[DeeDee249]

There are many infuriating elements in this case; the Arndt “amnesia” is definitely high on my list.
It’s one thing to try and punish your boss for some perceived wrong, but to essentially obstruct justice, that is taking it way too far and is completely outrageous. Did money change hands, or did she fall under the same “spell” as Lou Smit?

We'll never know. The Rs defense team could have gotten to her as well. But from the very first moments, she never considered Patsy a suspect. With JR, she claimed to have "known" right away he was involved somehow. As the years went on (and on..) and she became adversarial towards her former employers (BPD), she never wavered in her support for Patsy and continued to communicate with her till her death. But I felt towards that time, she was also leaning towards JR as being innocent as well. She hasn't said much publicly these years (saving for her book- we're still waiting...). No way to know why she changed her mind about JR.
When she was sent to the house the morning of Dec. 26, she was trained as a rape victims specialist. She was one of very few LE who were not on vacation that week. Possibly because she was single with no children, and those LE who had families wanted Christmas week off because schools were closed. But because she had that training, she was naturally inclined to view women as victims. Her sympathies were with Patsy (as grieving mother of a kidnapped little girl (later as mother of a murder victim).

 

[cynic]

We'll never know. The Rs defense team could have gotten to her as well. But from the very first moments, she never considered Patsy a suspect. With JR, she claimed to have "known" right away he was involved somehow. As the years went on (and on..) and she became adversarial towards her former employers (BPD), she never wavered in her support for Patsy and continued to communicate with her till her death. But I felt towards that time, she was also leaning towards JR as being innocent as well. She hasn't said much publicly these years (saving for her book- we're still waiting...). No way to know why she changed her mind about JR.
When she was sent to the house the morning of Dec. 26, she was trained as a rape victims specialist. She was one of very few LE who were not on vacation that week. Possibly because she was single with no children, and those LE who had families wanted Christmas week off because schools were closed. But because she had that training, she was naturally inclined to view women as victims. Her sympathies were with Patsy (as grieving mother of a kidnapped little girl (later as mother of a murder victim).

Did she ever turn over her notebooks from the case (which she was withholding)?