South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #2

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Tortoise said:
So Henri left a print on the blade of the knife. He was holding the axe in his right hand and must have used his left hand to pull out the knife (cough). That was the only time he claims to have handled the knife. So was this a left thumb/finger print on the blade? I hope they have the facts.
Click to expand...

Sergeant Jonathan Oliphant who collected the fingerprints from the scene gave evidence that Henri's right thumb fingerprint was found 15cm from the tip of the blade of the knife.

This link also contains Dr Georgina Albertse report of his injuries.

http://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/news/vanbredatrial-no-fingerprints-found-on-axe-handle-9212081

Oliphant said, "If knife point points down, the thumb print pointed up".

HvB said that he pulled the knife out. I would have thought you'd pull a knife out by the handle, not the blade, but there you go.
 
JudgeJudi said:
Sergeant Jonathan Oliphant who collected the fingerprints from the scene gave evidence that Henri's right thumb fingerprint was found 15cm from the tip of the blade of the knife.

This link also contains Dr Georgina Albertse report of his injuries.

http://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/news/vanbredatrial-no-fingerprints-found-on-axe-handle-9212081

Oliphant said, "If knife point points down, the thumb print pointed up".

HvB said that he pulled the knife out. I would have thought you'd pull a knife out by the handle, not the blade, but there you go.
Click to expand...

Ooooh! thank you.

So, Henri doesn't use his idle left hand, puts Axe in his right hand down, then uses his right hand to pull out the knife that has already fallen out, then picks the axe up again before racing after the murderer?

Or, Henri with axe in right hand somehow manages to keep hold of it while he uses his right thumb without using his fingers, to pull out the already fallen out knife?

How am I doing?

Maybe this has answered your question of what Galloway needs to get him to explain.

My suggestion would be he held the blade while he cleaned off the handle and missed that thumb print.
 
Tortoise said:
Ooooh! thank you.

So, Henri doesn't use his idle left hand, puts Axe in his right hand down, then uses his right hand to pull out the knife that has already fallen out, then picks the axe up again before racing after the murderer?

Or, Henri with axe in right hand somehow manages to keep hold of it while he uses his right thumb without using his fingers, to pull out the already fallen out knife?

How am I doing?

Maybe this has answered your question of what Galloway needs to get him to explain.

My suggestion would be he held the blade while he cleaned off the handle and missed that thumb print.
Click to expand...

:drumroll:
 
We are back. Adv Botha continues cross examination.

Blade of knife tapers, move it into wound, cutting edge plays a role, Dempers says.

Dempers noted in his report that there is a vast difference between Henri and his family's injuries.

Botha says he isn't saying that the axe caused his injuries, but that some were caused by the knife.

Botha says could explain the injuries sustained by his family and Henri being so different.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524
 
https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

Anthony Molyneaux‏ @AJGMolyneaux 8m8 minutes ago

We are dealing with very technical aspects regarding knives & how they penetrate the skin.
B: It's not my clients case that any of these injuries to his body was caused by an axe, they were caused by a knife.
Dempers agrees. He did not find an axe would cause Henris wounds.
Dempers states potential defensive wounds of Rudi & mother(hands)were not necessarily indicative of an axe. Small incised wounds.
Just to confirm: Rudi &Teresa were the only ones to have potential defensive wounds on hands. D says it could be axe but unlikely.
@TimesLIVE
 
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 2m2 minutes ago

Adv B: what u mean is that suggestion is if he self injured he did so to attempt to mask his potential role in attack of families
Prof D: That is what is meant by the statement in my report yes
Adv B: refers to exhibit E photo of Henri in ambulance shortly after he was collected
Adv B: refers to F, E (on right pec) slight stab at I but difficult to see on the left. Photo 3 left side H prominent cut & G stab
Adv B: is it possible cuts H-F caused by one single cutting motion?
Prof D: One can't absolutely exclude one action but things against
the tip comes from the left and curves slightly downwards

Adv B: in his version, fairly quickly. Adv B asks for the knife to demonstrate what Henri is saying in his plea explanation

Adv B:we aren’t debating wording just explaining how he told me how the cuts occurred.
Attacker holding knife in his right hand Henri gotten hold of his forearm and attacker tried to stab him and he got the impression

that the attacker was trying to attack his neck that’s how he sustained the first chest wounds.

@CapeTownEtc

(How your client lied to you?)
 
If he did injure himself, he did so in order to mark his involvement in the incident, Botha asks. Dempers says yes.

Now referring to photo of Henri siting in the ambulance.

Botha asks if the two cuts on either side of Henri's chest could be caused by one action. Dempers says it could be one action, but the smaller one on the left comes form the top and curves downward, the one of the left breast curves up, appears to come from a different direction.

If there was a slash, its very difficult to impossible for them to be exactly the same depth or morphology. They have the same appearance, same depth, Dempers says. Likelihood is very, very rare.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524
 
Why would the attacker go for his neck, usually it's at the trunk area, repeated stabs. Phfftt!! They'd slash his throat from behind while holding his arm back. This is stupid or crazy or both. :crazy:
 
Botha says Henri explained the attacker had tried to cut at his throat. Thereafter tried to cut at Henri horizontally by flicking at his arm.

The arm holding the knife hand is facing away, Dempers says.

Botha now going to demonstrate on Adv Combrink.

(Luckily using a ruler)

Dempers says he finds it unlikely - cuts are perfectly perpendicular. If this was a perfectly controlled dance of a fight, then yes. But it wasn't. Exactly equidistant and the same depth.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524
 
https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

Anthony Molyneaux‏ @AJGMolyneaux 2m2 minutes ago @TimesLIVE

Botha is now using his colleague Combrink to show flicking motion of attackers knife cutting Henris forearm causing 3 cuts.

Dempers states this was not a choreographed fight scene,these 2 people were fighting for their lives & forearm cuts don't match that.

Botha now comes to testimony of Dempers earlier where he said it was unlikely that someone would hit opposite shoulder of attacker

Botha grabs axe & shows what Henri's means by hitting attacker on opposite shoulder. Dempers now concedes
& says it's possible.


(I swear Botha wears the witness down till they concede a point.)
 
He claimed his father then came into the room and lunged towards the attacker. “The attacker was laughing. I heard my mother’s voice saying ‘what is going on?’”

The attacker, he claimed, seemed “unconcerned” about his presence.

He further claimed he wrestled the axe away from the man and was “surprised by how easily I disarmed him”.

The man also had a knife and cut and slashed at his chest, also slashing Van Breda’s left arm.

Van Breda said he managed to strike the attacker with the axe, and he then fled the room. Van Breda recalled his brother writhing on the bed. He also heard angry voices, speaking in Afrikaans.

http://citizen.co.za/news/news-nati...pleads-not-guilty-to-all-charges-against-him/


Botha is saying 'neck' on behalf of his 'client'.
 
Botha now has the axe in his hands, showing how Henri would have hit at the man's shoulder as the man was holding onto his arm.

Dempers says this is not inconceivable.

With a flick of the wrist he hit at him, and tried to get attacker to let go of the knife, but didn't succeed.

Dempers says he is trying to look at it logically, saying same assailant slashed people with an axe, there is no reason why would be fighting differently with Henri.

"I was told never to say never, but in this scenario, I find it very unlikely."

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524
 
JudgeJudi said:
I loved reading that bolded text. Memories.
Click to expand...

Yes JJ, fight or flight. HvB made his imaginary intruder take flight.

What's distressing when I read over again Botha's explaining HvB's fighting skills, these were with his parents and his sister! Rudi didn't have a chance to fight, he was fast asleep.
 
Botha says Henri is not a small man. Dempers says this is not an indication of his strength. Botha says he played rugby and swam. He is strong, he says.

Dempers: I take your word for it.

Dempers - the fact that attacker may have been tired doesn't gel for me. Adrenaline would cause person to fight back, he explains.

He would expect Henri to pull his arm free and hit axe with vigour.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524
 
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