South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #2

[PrimeSuspect]

Another similar case, wealthy family murder - Sef Gonzales (20 yrs old) murdered his father, mother and sister in Nth Ryde, NSW, Australia. SG says he chased off intruders on arriving home at 11.30 pm (10 July, 2001) and discovers the bodies in the house. SG had in fact killed them between 4.30pm - 7pm as each family member arrived home.
The weapons used were 2 kitchen knives and a baseball bat. Interestingly, when SG rang emergency services, he said his family were shot. Also, computer evidence was found that SG had planned to poison his family. His attempt to kill his mother with poison months earlier had failed, it was thought to be a bout of food poisoning.
SG was found guilty in 2004 and is serving 3 life sentences.

Regina v Gonzales

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/nsw/supreme_ct/2004/822.html

 

[JudgeJudi]

RSBM

One psychotic attack? IMO we do not really know what his behaviour was really like BEFORE the murders except to say he was given a brain scan a year or two ago but we do not know why that was given, ...

Speculation has mounted about the state of Henri’s mental health after it was revealed he had scans for cysts on the brain at an Australian hospital early last year.

Family spokesman Ben Rootman said the results of the tests were negative, and “no further tests were done in South Africa”.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...y/news-story/c401c96c7c32a6e841f7a59a9153d916


Aunt Narita du Toit said, “Yes, he’d gone for a brain scan but that was because he often got headaches. It turned out to be only a spot on his brain”.

https://www.pressreader.com/south-africa/you-south-africa/20150827/283046938218654

Take your pick.

 

[Interested Bystander]

One psychotic attack? IMO we do not really know what his behaviour was really like BEFORE the murders except to say he was given a brain scan a year or two ago but we do not know why that was given, it has been reported that the police found a man from whom Henri obtained "tik" presumably in the month before the murders and that he was drinking that night as alcohol was smelt on his breath. All we know about his behaviour AFTER the murder is that he was arrested on a drugs charge.

There are two possibilities if one can call the murders a "psychotic:attack":

Substance-induced psychosis: drug and alcohol use or withdrawal can result in psychotic symptoms. These may disappear once the effects of the substances or withdrawal symptoms wear off. In some cases, psychosis persists after the initial substance-induced psychosis. This is common with stimulant drugs, e.g. methamphetamine (“tik”).

Brief psychotic episode: psychotic symptoms appear suddenly in response to a recognisable and highly stressful life event, such as being a victim of violent crime. Symptoms may be severe but are short-lived: the psychosis lasts between one day and one month. You may or may not be aware of your bizarre behaviour.

http://www.health24.com/Mental-Health/Brain/Neurological-conditions/12-types-of-psychosis-20130711

Maybe a combination of both. But we do not really know enough about the stressful event which may have triggered his behaviour except to say the three male family members had a two hour long argument and that HvB's father had told him that he was going to cut off his allowance but we have not been told why yet.

I think there was a rumour early on that he had been disinherited due to his persistent drug taking but I have never seen any report stating this was fact and it is probably something only a very close friend or immediate family would know.

I have recently read that he was a loner who did not make friends easily and also that he was due to go to Canada but was ill and couldn't go. Maybe this was something to do with his drug taking although the family denied this. I think "the family" must be aunts and uncles commenting after the event. I suspect the Van Breda family was not as close as is depicted but that they all kept problems under wraps rather than air their "dirty washing" in public - much like the Pistorius family.

You will probably all have read this newspaper article but just in case:-

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Speculation-about-health-of-axe-murders-survivor-20150202

 

[JudgeJudi]

I would love to see him lose this case.

Me too. I regard him as the legal equivalent of a street fighter.

 

[Tortoise]

Another similar case, wealthy family murder - Sef Gonzales (20 yrs old) murdered his father, mother and sister in Nth Ryde, NSW, Australia. SG says he chased off intruders on arriving home at 11.30 pm (10 July, 2001) and discovers the bodies in the house. SG had in fact killed them between 4.30pm - 7pm as each family member arrived home.
The weapons used were 2 kitchen knives and a baseball bat. Interestingly, when SG rang emergency services, he said his family were shot. Also, computer evidence was found that SG had planned to poison his family. His attempt to kill his mother with poison months earlier had failed, it was thought to be a bout of food poisoning.
SG was found guilty in 2004 and is serving 3 life sentences.

Regina v Gonzales

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/nsw/supreme_ct/2004/822.html

I'm just reading this and it suddenly occurred to me that HvB has been charged with premeditated murder, not just murder. I wonder if the phone search on the axe killing was made before the night of the murder, or during that late evening.

 

[chinacat67]

:welcome6: chinacat

Like others, I have been following along quietly (from the states on off hours for SA) and want to thank those of you posting the trial info/tweets. It's incredibly sad but compelling stuff and I am​ grateful for your hard work that allows us to follow along!

Sent from my SM

Thank you for joining in. It's lovely to see new faces as we're so few in number. We'd love to have you join in the conversation.

Thanks! Generally in agreement with everyone here. 😊

I do have a few nagging doubts... this was probably discussed in earlier threads, was Marli's boyfriend at the time checked out? I suppose in my mind he is the only loose thread as he seems to have had family level access to the house, his prints were on axe handle and a few other little details like that, which start to add up a bit...

Also, I could see Henri having lost the details of Afrikaans. Moved at 11 and still there for university...like he should certainly be able to understand it spoken to him but maybe not the finer details, not in speaking it himself and perhaps technical language involved w police work. Also because in Australia, like the states, Afrikaans may been seen to have some negative historical/racial component that left the family focusing on English while abroad and with the kids in particular.

I was in Cape Town for a few weeks visit in 2012 and vividly recall the incredible beauty everywhere, including the Stellenbosch area. You all are so lucky to see it daily!!

Just my musings and opinions!

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[chinacat67]

I would also say there is no way he wouldn't have known the emergency numbers. Not only from the list on the fridge, but a mother who cares enough to stick a list on the fridge also cares enough to teach her children, IMO, especially living in a country where crime is rife.

This is another one I can actually believe Henri on.

Based on (a) the Lisanne Froon/Kris Kremers case (see Parking Lot for discussion) and (b) also he didn't live in SA full time, he really seems to have been based in Australia.

I'm sure he knew the Australian emergency numbers but I couldn't tell you either Australia or South Africa and I have been to both places. You tend to learn and know the number where you live only.

Honestly, I am a well educated person and it never occurred to me I couldn't dial 911 from anywhere on my travels.

My kids are in their 20s now..we had emergency numbers on fridge when they were young but certainly not by time they were teens...they would just use their phones anyway, like he did.

I am willing to give him the benefit on not knowing the number, tho not the benefit of how he handled not knowing and subsequent delays and calls...



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[chinacat67]

There is just so much to cover in this trial. I thought the pathologist was pretty weak, and non-committal, in terms of adding any pieces to the jigsaw. I'm not even sure where the defence objected to her findings.

Who is going to give evidence about the dog? I suppose only Henri can, but he's a liar. Marli might be able to explain the dog's usual temperament and habits.

I think we only have about 12 court days left and we haven't heard about Marli's injuries yet, we'll probably need to hear from a neurologist about the long faint, a blood spatter expert, police and crime scene examination, phone and laptop examination, this trial within a trial ruling, and then the defence case.

They need to put in longer court hours to get this done IMO.

This is one of the things that is leaving me gobsmacked. I'm an attorney and if our court system ran at this pace, it would be so untenable as to most certainly collapse pretty quickly.

The seeming system of trying to fit a trial of some sort in between late start, breakfast, tea, lunch, tea and early dismissal every day, in a set amount of weeks w a hard stop for the circuit changes is certainly peculiar. (OISA, as you say

I didn't follow the Pistorious trial closely so this is my first peek at the court system and it feels a bit like Alice in Wonderland to me. 😉

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[chinacat67]

I agree IB. Someone was speaking Afrikaans in court and Botha asked him to speak in English because HvB couldn't follow. I think Desai made a comment about it too.

When Teresa woke up as a result of the noise in the boys' bedroom, she would hardly call out in a language that was foreign to either HvB or Rudi.

Woken in the middle of the night, confused, disoriented and jarred, Teresa would say the first thing that came to mind, IMO, regardless of if that made sense to anyone listening...

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[Tortoise]

Thanks! Generally in agreement with everyone here. 

I do have a few nagging doubts... this was probably discussed in earlier threads, was Marli's boyfriend at the time checked out? I suppose in my mind he is the only loose thread as he seems to have had family level access to the house, his prints were on axe handle and a few other little details like that, which start to add up a bit...

Also, I could see Henri having lost the details of Afrikaans. Moved at 11 and still there for university...like he should certainly be able to understand it spoken to him but maybe not the finer details, not in speaking it himself and perhaps technical language involved w police work. Also because in Australia, like the states, Afrikaans may been seen to have some negative historical/racial component that left the family focusing on English while abroad and with the kids in particular.

I was in Cape Town for a few weeks visit in 2012 and vividly recall the incredible beauty everywhere, including the Stellenbosch area. You all are so lucky to see it daily!!

Just my musings and opinions!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

James Reade-Jahn's prints weren't found on the axe handle. The axe handle bore no prints at all.

 

[Interested Bystander]

:welcome6: chinacat

Like others, I have been following along quietly (from the states on off hours for SA) and want to thank those of you posting the trial info/tweets. It's incredibly sad but compelling stuff and I am​ grateful for your hard work that allows us to follow along!

Sent from my SM
Thanks! Generally in agreement with everyone here. 😊

I do have a few nagging doubts... this was probably discussed in earlier threads, was Marli's boyfriend at the time checked out? I suppose in my mind he is the only loose thread as he seems to have had family level access to the house, his prints were on axe handle and a few other little details like that, which start to add up a bit...

Also, I could see Henri having lost the details of Afrikaans. Moved at 11 and still there for university...like he should certainly be able to understand it spoken to him but maybe not the finer details, not in speaking it himself and perhaps technical language involved w police work. Also because in Australia, like the states, Afrikaans may been seen to have some negative historical/racial component that left the family focusing on English while abroad and with the kids in particular.

I was in Cape Town for a few weeks visit in 2012 and vividly recall the incredible beauty everywhere, including the Stellenbosch area. You all are so lucky to see it daily!!

Just my musings and opinions!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

BIB

I don’t think any fingerprints were found on the axe handle. However many prints were found in the house – see the third link below.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/20...-on-axe-scrutinised-in-Van-Breda-murder-trial
The officer who dusted 12 Goske Street for fingerprints over the course of three days after the murder‚ has confirmed that no fingerprints could be lifted from the axe's handle where the murderer would have held on tightly as he hacked Martin‚ Rudi‚ Teresa and Marli van Breda.

http://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/news/vanbredatrial-no-fingerprints-found-on-axe-handle-9212081
Cape Town – Henri Van Breda had previously revealed in his plea explanation that he had grasped the axe which had been used to murder his parents and brother, but according to Sergeant Jonathan Oliphant – who collected the fingerprints from the scene – there were no fingerprints found on the axe handle.

http://ewn.co.za/2017/05/18/several-unidentified-fingerprints-found-at-van-breda-home
Sergeant Johnathan Oliphant found more than 50 fingerprints belonging to the Van Breda family, Marli’s ex-boyfriend, domestic workers and the gardener.

 

[Interested Bystander]

This is another one I can actually believe Henri on.

Based on (a) the Lisanne Froon/Kris Kremers case (see Parking Lot for discussion) and (b) also he didn't live in SA full time, he really seems to have been based in Australia.

I'm sure he knew the Australian emergency numbers but I couldn't tell you either Australia or South Africa and I have been to both places. You tend to learn and know the number where you live only.

Honestly, I am a well educated person and it never occurred to me I couldn't dial 911 from anywhere on my travels.

My kids are in their 20s now..we had emergency numbers on fridge when they were young but certainly not by time they were teens...they would just use their phones anyway, like he did.

I am willing to give him the benefit on not knowing the number, tho not the benefit of how he handled not knowing and subsequent delays and calls...



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BUT the emergency numbers were attached to the fridge door. Why would he not at least try them? This boy is supposed to be a super intelligent being and the numbers were in front of him. Something smells very bad indeed with all his poor excuses.

 

[chinacat67]

:welcome6: chinacat



BIB

I don’t think any fingerprints were found on the axe handle. However many prints were found in the house – see the third link below.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/20...-on-axe-scrutinised-in-Van-Breda-murder-trial
The officer who dusted 12 Goske Street for fingerprints over the course of three days after the murder‚ has confirmed that no fingerprints could be lifted from the axe's handle where the murderer would have held on tightly as he hacked Martin‚ Rudi‚ Teresa and Marli van Breda.

http://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/news/vanbredatrial-no-fingerprints-found-on-axe-handle-9212081
Cape Town – Henri Van Breda had previously revealed in his plea explanation that he had grasped the axe which had been used to murder his parents and brother, but according to Sergeant Jonathan Oliphant – who collected the fingerprints from the scene – there were no fingerprints found on the axe handle.

http://ewn.co.za/2017/05/18/several-unidentified-fingerprints-found-at-van-breda-home
Sergeant Johnathan Oliphant found more than 50 fingerprints belonging to the Van Breda family, Marli’s ex-boyfriend, domestic workers and the gardener.

Well that's an easy answer, I misread a post back in the last thread. Apologies for any confusion.

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[Mette]

I think there was a rumour early on that he had been disinherited due to his persistent drug taking but I have never seen any report stating this was fact and it is probably something only a very close friend or immediate family would know.

I have recently read that he was a loner who did not make friends easily and also that he was due to go to Canada but was ill and couldn't go. Maybe this was something to do with his drug taking although the family denied this. I think "the family" must be aunts and uncles commenting after the event. I suspect the Van Breda family was not as close as is depicted but that they all kept problems under wraps rather than air their "dirty washing" in public - much like the Pistorius family.

You will probably all have read this newspaper article but just in case:-

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Speculation-about-health-of-axe-murders-survivor-20150202

You will probably all have read this article from two weeks later, but just in case:

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...spected-of-being-a-tik-addict-report-20150215

Sometimes journalists are better crime investigators than are crime investigators.

From the article:

According to the Sunday Times, police are investigating a number of possible motives, including one that Henri’s parents reportedly cut off his allowance.

The newspaper meanwhile reports that it has tracked down a man who claims to have been Henri’s drug runner. The man, known as Mark, reportedly identified Henri from a photograph and said that he had been a regular customer.

Police have not however taken a statement from Mark but sources close to the investigation say this is not necessary as Henri’s medical records would be subpoenaed to prove addiction.

In the life of an addict and the family, who understandably try to keep from airing dirty laundry in public, the dealer or drug runner is closer to the subject than most medical records.

This dealer, "Mark", unearthed by Sunday Times journalists, is absent from this trial, probably for complex layers of legal reasons.

 

[Mette]

Re the Afrikaans/English language issue, though unimportant IMO, some local insight.

Afrikaans-speaking parents in South Africa, especially global citizens like the van Bredas were, tend to raise English-speaking and English-educated children. The children understand Afrikaans perfectly, like very many South Africans, but don't tend to use it.

In Henri's emergency call he pronounced his name as "Henry", though at birth he would have been called "Onry", the French-South African pronunciation of Henri. He also conducted the call in English without an Afrikaans accent, but with basically an English South African accent.

I can believe Martin and Theresa reverting to Afrikaans under stress and Henri giving his police statements in English, no subterfuge there.

 

[JudgeJudi]

JJ, I see you are still having a quote problem. Have you tried sticking a forward slash / before the last Quote in brackets? Not that you should have to do it manually, but just until the problem is fixed.

Oh Tortoise, you have no idea of my problems and it's not the forward slash, but I'm not the only one. Basically I'm pretty much reduced to just posting. full. stop. AND the problem isn't going to be fixed apparently.

Go to the last page of the thread below and you'll see what I've been putting up with. If anyone else here has problems, you might like to have a look too just in case you think it's your ipad, phone or PC.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?324150-Site-sluggishness/page9

 

[LeanaSA]

news24 has been conducting a poll and 80%+ think he's guilty. I probably don't need to ask, but what is the feeling over in SA?

To be honest, our news here is dominated by local politics at the moment. I have not heard people discuss this case much, even though it is covered in the national news every court day. Unlike the OP trial; because he is a celebrity almost everyone had an opinion. I never followed OP, as I was deeply into the Darlie Routier and Jonbenet Ramsey cases at that time. It is interesting how people are drawn to specific cases...

 

[JudgeJudi]

:wagon: Mette

Thank you, I had read that article. I have to mention though that Mark could always have been made a section 204 witness. A section 204 witness is one who is given an indemnity from prosecution if he tells the truth while testifying against the accused and in doing so incriminates himself. His evidence cannot be used by the police if they subsequently charge the witness with the offence. The police must use their own evidence to secure a conviction.
This is what happened to one of the witnesses in the Panayiotou trial until he had a change of heart in the witness box and refused to answer any further questions, so now he has been deemed a hostile witness.

These murders were so unbelievably violent that I thought tik aka crystal meth could have been the likely cause. I've read where one tik addict was actually caught eating the face of his victim. However HvB's face shows no signs of being such an addict, or certainly not a long-term addict. The only other scenario I can think of is that he's become schizophrenic due to smoking pot which can happen to young teenagers who are the ones most at risk.

If he committed these murders and it's not due to drug abuse then he's a monster.

 

[JudgeJudi]

To be honest, our news here is dominated by local politics at the moment. I have not heard people discuss this case much, even though it is covered in the national news every court day. Unlike the OP trial; because he is a celebrity almost everyone had an opinion. I never followed OP, as I was deeply into the Darlie Routier and Jonbenet Ramsey cases at that time. It is interesting how people are drawn to specific cases...

Thank you. I thought once the trial was well and truly underway that people in SA would be drawn into following it. As for politics in SA, I read the local news there every day and I know what you mean. If it's not politics it's horrendous crimes against babies, children and women.

 

[Mette]

:wagon: Mette

Thank you, but I'm not new. Websleuths has been my go-to page on many cases over the years. Well done, sleuthers, and keep up the good analyses.

Thank you, I had read that article. I have to mention though that Mark could always have been made a section 204 witness. A section 204 witness is one who is given an indemnity from prosecution if he tells the truth while testifying against the accused and in doing so incriminates himself. His evidence cannot be used by the police if they subsequently charge the witness with the offence. The police must use their own evidence to secure a conviction.

Indeed. That's why I believe the legal reasons for excluding "Mark" are more complex, legally multi-layered, than simply a random Stellenbosch drug dealer being caught. That Breda took drugs doesn't make him a murderer, and I'm sure his defence team has exploited this behind closed legal doors.

This is what happened to one of the witnesses in the Panayiotou trial until he had a change of heart in the witness box and refused to answer any further questions, so now he has been deemed a hostile witness.

And that's a whole other Websleuths page, but yes, like with Dewani, a case study in exploiting inequality where society meets sociopathy meets policing inequipped to understand it.

These murders were so unbelievably violent that I thought tik aka crystal meth could have been the likely cause.

What Henri did with that axe took incredible strength. One of my local security guys explained that people on tik scale walls higher than humanly possible. Tik gives enormous energy.

The only other scenario I can think of is that he's become schizophrenic due to smoking pot which can happen to young teenagers who are the ones most at risk.

That doesn't happen. Marijuana slows people down a bit, that's all. Also helps with pain relief.

If he committed these murders and it's not due to drug abuse then he's a monster.

A sociopath, born with genetic brain issues, meets a particular environment. Difficult to predict. I guess we have to ask, what is a monster?