South Hadley,MA Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying #2

[rsorcha]

Either way, this trial is going to be nasty...i think we are going to find that the adults will be no less ruthless than the children...

 

[raeann]

I have no idea what defense strategy is going to be and neither do you, I presume.
Asking for the information certainly doesn't mean defense is not competent, it's the other way around, by the way.

Sorry, I was posting under the impression that all posters here were welcome to express their OPINION. (jmo=just my opinion, which is stated below the post)

If that post is read correctly...it doesn't ever refer in any way to their asking for the information, it refers to the use of a blame the victim strategy. It also discusses the KNOWN AND OBVIOUS public reaction to this case which has been quite clear and vocal. It also was posted after a long and thorough discussion of this case and regarding what would be a good defense strategy with SEVERAL attorneys who deal with personal defense cases and jury selection and strategy on a daily basis. So, I guess, in a way it is not just MY opinion, but the opinion of those legal professionals which I chose to relate. Hope that explains it better.

AGAIN, JMO

 

[Paladine]

international press pick up the hanging story...

"Dr Phil appeared on CNN where he stated that a bullying expert had described to him the sickening details of a school dance that went ahead in the days after Phoebe's death on January 14.

It was at this party that other teenagers mocked Phoebe's suicide and mimicked her death.

The world-renowned shrink questioned why school authorities allowed the dance to go ahead and said they had behaved very badly before and after Phoebe's death.

"They didn't tell the truth about what they knew," he claimed, adding that it was "astounding how vicious and brutal" the bullying of Phoebe Prince was."

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/...es-suicide-at-party-says-dr-phil-2133126.html

 

[thebear14]

Well, if you speculate she wrote something in a journal-unlike a person, a journal can not be cross-examined, and I suppose that's where the state of mind could come in-how can it be verified that whatever was written in a journal was accurate?

I say a journal because I think it's unlikely that she would lie in a personal diary/journal. I've seen some reports that there may be a journal she kept but nothing concrete so just speculation that there may be one. I see no reason why a 14-15 year old girl would lie to her diary. Not even sure if it could be used as evidence but just a possibility.

 

[Paladine]

someone had mentioned that possibly the dox for the oldest 3 weren't released because they weren't booked, yet. The younger 3 were booked and then we heard the statement of facts. I wonder...could it be because they hadn't been booked? Or is it because the charges involve sex and a minor? Even so, we should still get Kayla Narey's. K, S and A are the oldest 3, right? Why no mention of their names? No dox...hmmm...where's my tinfoil...

SOUTH HADLEY, Mass. (WWLP) - It may be a while until the teens are seen in a courtroom, however the teens accused for bullying Pheobe Prince to death did have to finally appear for booking .

The oldest three were spotted for booking at the Northampton State Police barracks Friday morning.
Ashley Longe and Flannery Mullins had to check in with Franklin/Hampshire Juvenile Court.

Sharon Velazquez checked in on Thursday.

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/phoebe-princes-alleged-bullies-booked

 

[thebear14]

I keep thinking that the what the school nurse has to say might carry a great deal of weight. Phoebe was seen in her office that day, crying, and then was sent back to class.

That's a direct call for help from the girl on the day of her death and being in an official capacity in the school administration whatever this person says could turn the case toward the bullies or away from them.

I say away from them because if the nurse and others can be shown in a bad light by the bullies lawyers (which they will try to do to deflect responsibility from their clients), then the bullies might escape with slight punishments.

And without charges against the school officials, that's the end of the criminal matter.

I was actually just thinking about the nurse visit earlier this morning. I think whatever happened there will end up having a big impact, especially considering it was on the day she died.

 

[thebear14]

someone had mentioned that possibly the dox for the oldest 3 weren't released because they weren't booked, yet. The younger 3 were booked on Thursday, and then we heard the statement of facts. I wonder...could it be because they hadn't been booked? Or is it because the charges involve sex and a minor? Even so, we should still get Kayla Narey's.

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/phoebe-princes-alleged-bullies-booked

I'm not exactly sure why the statement of facts for the older three weren't released, but for some reason I just don't think it's because of the stat. rap charges. I've never followed a story quite as closely as this one, but I believe documents regarding other cases involving sex with a minor have been released - I just can't really back that up right now. The stat. rape charges have already been brought so assumptions have already been made that sex occurred for good reason. The only difference would be the statement of facts here would likely say for definite that sexual activity occurred, and perhaps a better time line of how these relationships progressed. obviously just my little thought and opinion

 

[concentric]

Yes, I'm also interested to find out about the nurse visit or visit(s) if she had been in there before. The emotional distress alone would probably lead to physical illness as well.

 

[thebear14]

Yes, I'm also interested to find out about the nurse visit or visit(s) if she had been in there before. The emotional distress alone would probably lead to physical illness as well.

Most definitely - I've been there. Just thinking about some of this stuff makes me physically ill for her.

 

[jjenny]

I used to hate NG. My Mother always watched it. But then I followed the KC case, posting on the NG thread and became hooked. My Hubby hates it. I can't watch it in the same room as him...unless I feel like hearing his commentary...lol...

I used to like NG but now I can't stand her. As for Wendy Murphy, if she told me the sky was blue I would have to check for myself before I believed it.
JMO.

 

[Paladine]

wwlp not naming Mulveyhill and Narey in that last piece, which afforded them privacy, imo...and the lack of dox for them, made me grab my tinfoil.

Out of curiosity, I did a search of the site that didn't mention Mulveyhill's name in their new piece. I searched for Mulveyhill...I found the last news source on him was April 1st, the same one that negative comments had disappeared from last week, I mentioned such on the first thread. I wonder about the comments, though. Yes, some are negative, now. Maybe because I called them out? Take a look at the posting date of the comments. "1 week ago", and "20 hrs ago", comes up alot...was the site really busy for a few periods, then nothing else?...I posted on the site, last week, "where'd the comments go, I saw negative comments?" My comment is gone. That's still their last story that comes up about Mulveyhill. And it's a fluff piece, imo, about how great a kid he is...I'm wondering about the local media. Can you tell?
http://www.wwlp.com/search/SERP?q=mulveyhill&t=web&s=wwlp.com&o=relevance&google_web=google

 

[Paladine]

I'm not exactly sure why the statement of facts for the older three weren't released, but for some reason I just don't think it's because of the stat. rap charges. I've never followed a story quite as closely as this one, but I believe documents regarding other cases involving sex with a minor have been released - I just can't really back that up right now. The stat. rape charges have already been brought so assumptions have already been made that sex occurred for good reason. The only difference would be the statement of facts here would likely say for definite that sexual activity occurred, and perhaps a better time line of how these relationships progressed. obviously just my little thought and opinion

and I thank you for it, Bear. Let's hope some seasoned sleuth's who know MA law pop in with an answer because I'm baffled.

 

[Paladine]

Masslive, local coverage...I love the 1st paragraph...

"Phoebe N. Prince was harassed at South Hadley High School by classmates who accused her of stealing other girls' boyfriends in what appears to have been a snake pit of lovelorn teenagers, according to documents filed in Franklin-Hampshire Juvenile Court.

The hazing, complete with physical threats, was so bad at one point Prince was followed into a rest room, according to the documents. The months-long campaign of abuse included confrontations with name-calling in the classroom, hallways, library and cafeteria at the school, continuing with an incident in the school library after which Prince walked home and hanged herself Jan. 14, the documents state."

http://www.masslive.com/chicopeehol...ssf?/base/news-26/1270885548194120.xml&coll=1

 

[MaureenN]

That is not what I got from the charging documents, I think what happened is that she got herself into a situation that was too much for her to handle.

The one thing that has been bothering me about this story is why these kids were so virulent in their behaviour, when it struck me this afternoon. There has to be a backstory to all of this, one we are not as yet hearing about. Reading the pdf charging documents it is clear that this was all about sex and teenage relationships.

I think what was happening is that Phoebe was using sex as a tool in her attempts to form relationships with the boys she wanted. Two of these boys have been charged with stat rape, so there were at least two, possibly others we don't know about, who had sex with her. It seems these boys allready had girlfriends, and for those girls Phoebe must have been very threatening. She was better looking than them and apparently willing to have sex, something that they perhaps were more conservative about. So how would they be able to compete with her?

One way to compete would be to become more promiscous themselves, but that would be risky since they were less attractive and stood the risk of damaging their reputations if they did, which might have all sorts of unpredictable negative consequences. The other way was the anti-competition method of turning their rivals romantic weapons into liabilities, which is what they seem to have done.

Basically what they did was try to isolate her by very publicly putting her in the middle of the crosshairs by exposing her sexual behaviour. This would have the effect of alerting every other girl in the school that she was a potential threat to their romantic interests, as well as making her a romantic pariah for boys. For them, having sex with her would get them bragging rights, but any attempt to have a romantic relationship would expose them to derision as a pathetic loser for doing so. The end result would be that she would become the kid that few wanted to be around, which in turn would make her even more vulnerable for further targeting.

If you think about it, this is a very effective way for a girl to eliminate a romantic rival with little risk, and that particular story probably plays out thousands of times across the country in every school (and beyond). In most cases suicides don't result though.

In this particular fight Phoebe probably turned and ran very early on in the conflict since she was outnumbered, but the other girls (being immature and all) just kept on pursueing her even though the war was won. Btw, I think that this was very much a girl thing, the boys involved were likely going with the flow in order to stay in their girlfriends good graces. For Phoebe it became unbearable. She would have desparately wanted it to stop, but on the other hand if she pushed the authorities or her parents too much about it there was the risk of her own initial role in all of this coming out and that may have been too much to bear as well. So in the end she did the only thing she thought she could do to stop it.

I imagine the build-up a bit differently. Pretty, new to our country, somewhat exotic new girl in school is seen by boys as a fresh conquest that they want to pursue. They are either actively dating someone and choose to cheat on her -or- in an on-again, off-again relationship that is currently 'off'.

They flirt with her. She, being new, has no idea who they may or may not already be dating. She is flattered. She accepts their invitations & begins dating first one, then after breaking up with that one, another.

The boys pressure her into sex. Or, maybe she even willingly consents to sex (although, she is still underage).

The boys either actually wanted to be in a relationship with her or were just dating her to see if they could get her to have sex with them, so that they could have bragging rights.

Either way, after the relationships end, they go back to their original groups of friends with either hurt egos that they bolster by telling stories that make them feel better about the whole thing -or- bragging, callous stories about how they were 'the man'.

The insecure girls, instead of putting the responsibility of their own rocky, dishonest, game-like relationships with these boys on themselves and the boys, choose a scapegoat. Instead of thinking "these guys are losers who would cheat on me just for fun", they somehow disavow the boys of any personal responsibility in choosing to date someone else and decide to blame the girl that they dated. That assuages their insecurity, too - "It's not that I'm not a valued partner in a relationship, it's that the boys were magicked away somehow".

The boys egos soar as the girls fight to keep them. The girls insecurities are fed back by the boys enjoying the fights. The tagalong girl-friends, just as insecure, thrive on the positive attention they get from everyone when they join in.

Phoebe sits there wishing she had just turned down the offers for the dates in the first place & wonders if everyone in America is like this, if everyone in the world is like this at this age and beyond.

Well, that's the way I imagine it, anyway

 

[raeann]

After watching through the booking entry and exit videos of the accused several times, it is so unfathomable what could have made such normal looking teens do so a horrible thing. I would even choose to believe that they never would have chosen for this to be the result of their actions---IF they had not repeatedly said that this is what they wanted her to do, suggested it directly to her, shouted it in the hallways, posted it online and then celebrated when it DID occur. Their own electronic media trail is going to be the main evidence against them, along with the dozens of eye witnesses whom they were happy to use as an audience. The saddest part is that they could so easily have chosen to use their talents and skills in a GOOD way. Unlike many who have called them horrible things, I do not see them as unattractive, or inherently evil at all. I just see immense wasted potential---and so many who share the blame, the kids, their parents, the school. SAD for all concerned.

jmoo

 

[MaureenN]

As to why only the three charges were released so far, the one thing that I see about these papers are that they are requests for 'joinder'. The commonwealth and (I believe) the local authorities are both charging the defendants with the same thing, for the same reasons. So this request for joinder is saying "We think that these should both be tried at the same time, rather than wasting the courts time doing them twice".

So, maybe the other three defendants didn't have charges pressed by both commonwealth and local authorities.

 

[WaddupYo]

Because Phoebe was the new girl all the guys were interested. I was in the military for 12 years and every command I transferred to and for every other new girl we became the talk, the one everyone was interested in. And they guys, especially the popular guys of the commands never have the best intentions. I recall in my 2nd command that I had a boyfriend when I transferred and this guy who was the popular guy was relentless in his pursuit of me. Even though I had a boyfriend. I turned him down many many times. I remember 2 girls immediately took a disliking to me and tried to bully me. I was 21 and the other girls were close to 30. I remember thinking is this middle and highschool all over again!

Oh, good morning all!

 

[thebear14]

Masslive, local coverage...I love the 1st paragraph...


http://www.masslive.com/chicopeehol...ssf?/base/news-26/1270885548194120.xml&coll=1

Very good indeed. No matter how many time I read basically the same thing in different words, it still guts me and

 

[Paladine]

From the same news site I suspect is being soft on the older bullies...THIS...
"Charged teen's family impacted"

"The nation turned its eyes to Phoebe Prince's case as legal proceedings began, but many are thinking about the families of the accused."

"While the teens are charged, many say its the parents who will have to foot the bill.

"Oh yea, with the lawyers, and even, whatever comes out of this case as penalties go," said Ed Giles.

"The cost, the burden of that is something everyone is thinking about," said Steven Slezek.

However South Hadley Parent Kristen Johnson say the money is probably the least of the families worries.

"I don't think its anything compared to the emotional stuff. The emotional stuff, is just going to bury them and its never going to leave," said Johnson."

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/infocus/charged-teen's-family-impacted

 

[WaddupYo]

I'm looking at Sean's myspace and he doesn't have any recent photos on there of him and Kayla or anything to suggest they were dating ever.

It's so weird looking at his friends list. I see some of his friends on his list are the same pics and friends on the support Phoebe pages on facebook.