Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #4

[RedHaus]

I also think suicide is likely (3, #851), but I don't think it involved a lake. I think she will eventually be found in Spain, and well off trail (I don't think she ever went through Port de Venasque). Jmo

@Rush4087. Can't disagree! Intentionally drowning in the lake rings in my mind because it could be disguised as an accident - per @10ofRods' post just above. If ED is found in Boum de Vanesque the family could come to believe she tragically had an accident - a fall from the summit of pic de sauvegarde or a topple while getting water. But some other theories developing in my mind have her never passing through Port de Vanesque as you suggest - that ED descended all the way from the summit 22/11.

 

[miekei]

So, @miekei , can those air scent dogs still pick up a person's aroma if it has been several days? If it's contaminated by other people's aroma?
I love the idea of dogs riding ski lifts...

You know, it depends on the individual dog, and how it’s been trained, so it varies. For some dogs maybe 4 or 5 days is the limit, others can still track a scent for weeks. It also depends on the level of contamination with other scents. Weather is also a factor; rain doesn’t matter, scent survives longer in cool, damp conditions. Cool weather will bring the scent closer to the ground, which is why they often track early in the morning or in the evening. And of course the less wind the better. I know that cadaver dogs can still detect human remains in the ground years after, even if it’s just skeletal remains. Dogs are so amazing, on so many different levels.

 

[RickshawFan]

@Rush4087. Can't disagree! Intentionally drowning in the lake rings in my mind because it could be disguised as an accident - per @10ofRods' post just above. If ED is found in Boum de Vanesque the family could come to believe she tragically had an accident - a fall from the summit of pic de sauvegarde or a topple while getting water. But some other theories developing in my mind have her never passing through Port de Vanesque as you suggest - that ED descended all the way from the summit 22/11.

Isn't the trail to the Pic summit right at the Port? I'm not sure how the Port avoids being on her route.

 

[RedHaus]

Isn't the trail to the Pic summit right at the Port? I'm not sure how the Port avoids being on her route.

Yes, RickshawFan, the primary trail to the summit appears to start at the Port de Vanesque. But you don't have to "go through" the port to get to the summit of course. You would only go through the port (into France) if you were heading to the Refuge de V or places beyond such as Hospice de France or Port de Glere, etc. So the port was on ED's route, but her plan (expressed to DC) was to go through the port into France to do that loop described in the Dossier. And I think since Thread #1 there has been a subtle debate within our postings about whether ED went through the Port (into France) or not - regardless of what happened to her. I hope that makes more sense!

 

[RedHaus]

Isn't the trail to the Pic summit right at the Port? I'm not sure how the Port avoids being on her route.

One more thing to clarify - now that I re-read your question! When I said above, "...that ED descended all the way from the summit 22/11", what I mean is she could have descended from the summit, past Port de Vanesque, and down towards Banesque where as I understand it, there are two access points from parking lots to that trail.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I don’t know if this has been mentioned already, I watched the video from the article Esther and Dan did, without sound. Just watching Esther her body language seems very uncomfortable, anxious and withdraw at times. She seems to look down at points and doesn’t seem enthusiastic atall. Again that’s just from watching Esther for the short clip, but IMO she seems lost in thought, quiet and like she doesn’t particularly want to be there, discussing their life, JMO

 

[fridaybaker]

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Maybe we can explore the asking for food thing a bit more. We seem to have three camps on here.

1) those that think it OK, just a means of connecting
2) those that think it is bit odd, maybe a bit of a concern about ED's well being
3) those that disapprove

All perspectives that we see being brought to the table are valuable.

As I've probably made clear I am definitely not in camp 3. I'm somewhere between 1 and 2. It's a way of connecting I have no doubt. But it is unusual. If I had met the girl on a hike and she asked me for food, I'd gladly offer it if I had some spare. If I didn't have any, or I really needed what I had, I think would probably politely decline, but I'd be a bit concerned and I'd be asking her first if she was OK and trying to judge if she really was before making the decision. I certainly wouldn't ignore her. Our camp 3ers may think I'm irresponsible for not stoutly condemning this activity, but that's just how I am, I can't change that I'm afraid.

<edited to correct minor error on the category numbering>

Grouse, why does it have to be 1, 2 or 3?

I think one aspect of this thread is that often people are just "running ideas around" to see what fits, how it fits, if it's relevant to the case at hand at all, or whether something can be characterized one way or another. Oftentimes the idea isn't hard and fast, it's just a possibility. Hence, I'm in all three camps.

1. Yes, asking for food could be just Esther's "way of connecting", and that is all. We've heard this from Dan. Of course, usually people do things for many reasons, not just one, but I think it's certainly fair to say that this could be her primary reason for making requests for food a habit. However, certainly Esther, nor anyone else, should expect that that's how others see this. Yes, "the trail" isn't a street in London, but the two aren't mutually exclusive, so that some hikers (and they could even be very good and generous people) wouldn't see it in a favorable light. I can say that it would depend on many things as to whether I'd respond with food or not. Many cases I would, many I wouldn't, but even if this is Esther's "way of connecting", wouldn't she have an idea that everyone might not see it that way?

And again, it begs the question: If she's really concerned with "connecting", there is another way -she could carry food and offer it to people, or ask for a trade: "Hey, I've found the best granola EVER for these hikes. Would you like to trade some for something fresh, like a piece of fruit"?

2. I do find it rather "odd", whether or not it's a "way of connecting" or something to "be disapproved of". It makes me concerned for her well-being for various reasons: That she was perhaps a bit naive about people and, therefore, an easy target; that she has an exaggerated need for "connecting" with people, especially strangers, which could have made her an easy target; that she routinely, or even in this situation in particular, didn't prepare well enough in the food department so that hypothermia and other problems become exacerbated, etc. (I believe Dan even referenced that the food provisions could be a problem.)

3. Disapprove. I don't find it a wise or very positive behavior in any way. It doesn't mean that I'm denigrating Esther. I just don't agree with making "asking people for food" a regular behavior. Some people do, some don't.

So, chalk me up for all 3 camps.

 

[Grouse]

<edited to correct minor error on the category numbering>


Grouse, why does it have to be 1, 2 or 3?

I think one aspect of this thread is that often people are just "running ideas around" to see what fits, how it fits, if it's relevant to the case at hand at all, or whether something can be characterized one way or another. Oftentimes the idea isn't hard and fast, it's just a possibility. Hence, I'm in all three camps.

1. Yes, asking for food could be just Esther's "way of connecting", and that is all. We've heard this from Dan. Of course, usually people do things for many reasons, not just one, but I think it's certainly fair to say that this could be her primary reason for making requests for food a habit. However, certainly Esther, nor anyone else, should expect that that's how others see this. Yes, "the trail" isn't a street in London, but the two aren't mutually exclusive, so that some hikers (and they could even be very good and generous people) wouldn't see it in a favorable light. I can say that it would depend on many things as to whether I'd respond with food or not. Many cases I would, many I wouldn't, but even if this is Esther's "way of connecting", wouldn't she have an idea that everyone might not see it that way?

And again, it begs the question: If she's really concerned with "connecting", there is another way -she could carry food and offer it to people, or ask for a trade: "Hey, I've found the best granola EVER for these hikes. Would you like to trade some for something fresh, like a piece of fruit"?

2. I do find it rather "odd", whether or not it's a "way of connecting" or something to "be disapproved of". It makes me concerned for her well-being for various reasons: That she was perhaps a bit naive about people and, therefore, an easy target; that she has an exaggerated need for "connecting" with people, especially strangers, which could have made her an easy target; that she routinely, or even in this situation in particular, didn't prepare well enough in the food department so that hypothermia and other problems become exacerbated, etc. (I believe Dan even referenced that the food provisions could be a problem.)

3. Disapprove. I don't find it a wise or very positive behavior in any way. It doesn't mean that I'm denigrating Esther. I just don't agree with making "asking people for food" a regular behavior. Some people do, some don't.

So, chalk me up for all 3 camps.

Thanks Fridaybaker you make some good points. As there has been so much discussion on this I was only trying simplify things in order it can be fully explored and then, hopefully, put to bed.

I don't think, to be fair though, that I was really being ternary was I? I did say I was between 1 and 2 myself, hence allowing for a wider range of stances. Perhaps it might have been better if I had used a spectrum analogy.

TBH personally I don't think there probably is much more to be extracted on this theme but we shall see. Your point about naivety and vulnerability is interesting, and I wonder if some of our more experience hikers would have a take on that? I think in thread#1 when I raised the notion of vulnerability of a lone female hiker it was countered by those with more experience than I, and the consensus was that it is in fact very safe.

ETA: no, forget the spectrum analogy - you said all 3. I'm overthinking this now

 

[Grouse]

That would make more sense if Pic de Sauvegarde meant something to her, but it was a route suggested by a stranger she met on Nov 19. This cannot be some elaborate plan to go to a significant place to overdose on drugs. That level of planning would not involve a random mountain.

How long does it take for a place to come to mean something to someone? Ever found a place and been instantly smitten by it? I know I have (the summit of Ingleborough in England for one). She made that first visit on 21st and said "I'm in heaven", and decided for whatever reason to go up there again the next day. It could be as simple as that, why would it require an elaborate plan?

 

[Grouse]

I don’t know if this has been mentioned already, I watched the video from the article Esther and Dan did, without sound. Just watching Esther her body language seems very uncomfortable, anxious and withdraw at times. She seems to look down at points and doesn’t seem enthusiastic atall. Again that’s just from watching Esther for the short clip, but IMO she seems lost in thought, quiet and like she doesn’t particularly want to be there, discussing their life, JMO

I'd like to try that with the sound off, can you post a link to that please?

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Sorry, I was wrong, it’s not the article it’s one of their vlogs talking about the mountain rescue team. It’s on YouTube ‘hiking the Alpina day 52’. Was there ever a video of the interview they did about their travelling with the BBC before Esther disappeared? I don’t know if I can link YouTube here but to me it does look like she’s stressed or somethings bothering her, maybe she’s just a quiet person and Dan does the talking. But I kind of see a difference in Esther on this one vlog compared to the one before. Maybe I’m reading too much into that one

 

[Grouse]

Sorry, I was wrong, it’s not the article it’s one of their vlogs talking about the mountain rescue team. It’s on YouTube ‘hiking the Alpina day 52’. Was there ever a video of the interview they did about their travelling with the BBC before Esther disappeared? I don’t know if I can link YouTube here but to me it does look like she’s stressed or somethings bothering her, maybe she’s just a quiet person and Dan does the talking. But I kind of see a difference in Esther on this one vlog compared to the one before. Maybe I’m reading too much into that one

Thanks I'll find it.

 

[The_Investigator]

I'm sure as much as I can visualize this trip, I would never approximate how awesome it was. I am envious!
IMO, back to the topic at hand, it's another instance where food is exchanged as a point of community and connection, but it is never solicited. Soliciting it actually severs contact. That's why I think ED's asking for food is striking: something else is going on there, and it's not about connection.

A power thing? Challenging others who are on HER hike route? Perhaps passive aggressive ?

 

[Grouse]

No, no jesting. I have this fear every time I look down a privy hole and see the gunk. It comes after the moment when I worry about dropping my car keys into it. It's called casalatrinophobia.

Seriously, it would be all too easy to stand up suddenly, get dizzy, and have a serious accident. Maybe there was black ice on the floor, maybe you dropped your priceless 3 sheets of toilet paper...

TBH I wasn't sure if you were being serious either, but I just googled it and wow, it's quite common.

Carters Lake: Man slipped and fell into toilet pit before found covered in human waste more than an hour later | Daily Mail Online

“I fell into a pit of mud and human waste”

Apparently they need to be 2m deep to be effective, I hadn't realised - as per Design Considerations section in --> https://sswm.info/factsheet/single-pit

On that basis I can't see how they wouldn't have been checked by LE.

 

[Grouse]

Sorry, I was wrong, it’s not the article it’s one of their vlogs talking about the mountain rescue team. It’s on YouTube ‘hiking the Alpina day 52’. Was there ever a video of the interview they did about their travelling with the BBC before Esther disappeared? I don’t know if I can link YouTube here but to me it does look like she’s stressed or somethings bothering her, maybe she’s just a quiet person and Dan does the talking. But I kind of see a difference in Esther on this one vlog compared to the one before. Maybe I’m reading too much into that one

I don’t know if this has been mentioned already, I watched the video from the article Esther and Dan did, without sound. Just watching Esther her body language seems very uncomfortable, anxious and withdraw at times. She seems to look down at points and doesn’t seem enthusiastic atall. Again that’s just from watching Esther for the short clip, but IMO she seems lost in thought, quiet and like she doesn’t particularly want to be there, discussing their life, JMO

Hi, it is one I've seen before but I tried it with sound off. I can't say I got the same impressions you did. I guess some might interpret the way she's standing a bit behind him as coming across a bit submissive, but I'm sure that's just a technique to make sure they both stay in shot.

Interesting though the idea of watching with no sound, I bet a lot of things can get picked up that way that would be missed when you are focussing on the words.

 

[Quietey]

Regarding asking for food, it's quirky but I don't see a reason to disapprove - just say no! If I had food that I was prepared to give away I would give it. It certainly wouldn't be my tastiest stuff - more likely a squashed 18 hour old sandwich destined for the bin. If I had food that I wanted to keep I would just either say so, or just say sorry no.

This article is interesting, I remember reading it some time ago - it gives a different take on getting food for free. Maybe Esther was coming from a similar place, ie maybe she saw herself as asking for leftovers, as a way of reducing "systemic waste", this would seem to fit in with the lifestyle she and DC were trying to lead. Quote from the article - "In London, in good weather, the food-wasters can be very generous." And maybe getting food for free was also about permitting herself to eat things that she wouldn't normally eat ie non-vegan food (I think we've mentioned this before).

The last lines of the article - "It’s all about busting consumerist norms. I don’t feel enslaved, or intimidated, by food, or the food industry, any more" - almost sounds like something Esther might write.

- I eat only strangers' leftover food – and it's the best diet I've ever had

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Hi, it is one I've seen before but I tried it with sound off. I can't say I got the same impressions you did. I guess some might interpret the way she's standing a bit behind him as coming across a bit submissive, but I'm sure that's just a technique to make sure they both stay in shot.

Interesting though the idea of watching with no sound, I bet a lot of things can get picked up that way that would be missed when you are focussing on the words.

I often watch appeal videos without sound then watch again to hear the words. Y’know the ones where it’s the boyfriend or husband or other potential POI? Yeah, watch the body language before your mind is tainted by the spoken content.

 

[10ofRods]

Regarding asking for food, it's quirky but I don't see a reason to disapprove - just say no! If I had food that I was prepared to give away I would give it. It certainly wouldn't be my tastiest stuff - more likely a squashed 18 hour old sandwich destined for the bin. If I had food that I wanted to keep I would just either say so, or just say sorry no.

This article is interesting, I remember reading it some time ago - it gives a different take on getting food for free. Maybe Esther was coming from a similar place, ie maybe she saw herself as asking for leftovers, as a way of reducing "systemic waste", this would seem to fit in with the lifestyle she and DC were trying to lead. Quote from the article - "In London, in good weather, the food-wasters can be very generous." And maybe getting food for free was also about permitting herself to eat things that she wouldn't normally eat ie non-vegan food (I think we've mentioned this before).

The last lines of the article - "It’s all about busting consumerist norms. I don’t feel enslaved, or intimidated, by food, or the food industry, any more" - almost sounds like something Esther might write.

- I eat only strangers' leftover food – and it's the best diet I've ever had

I don't think you're understanding the issue in big wilderness spaces.

It's not hikers' etiquette to provision others. It's rude on the trail to ask for water. In hiking long distance, hikers plan exactly how little to carry and how to cover their own bases. Plus a little extra, if they are expert/prepared.

However, I'm sure the mountains are filled with people who are not following hiking etiquette - which is why the rest of us carry extra (but...for someone to ask for something repeatedly is no bueno...)

 

[10ofRods]

Regarding asking for food, it's quirky but I don't see a reason to disapprove - just say no! If I had food that I was prepared to give away I would give it. It certainly wouldn't be my tastiest stuff - more likely a squashed 18 hour old sandwich destined for the bin. If I had food that I wanted to keep I would just either say so, or just say sorry no.

This article is interesting, I remember reading it some time ago - it gives a different take on getting food for free. Maybe Esther was coming from a similar place, ie maybe she saw herself as asking for leftovers, as a way of reducing "systemic waste", this would seem to fit in with the lifestyle she and DC were trying to lead. Quote from the article - "In London, in good weather, the food-wasters can be very generous." And maybe getting food for free was also about permitting herself to eat things that she wouldn't normally eat ie non-vegan food (I think we've mentioned this before).

The last lines of the article - "It’s all about busting consumerist norms. I don’t feel enslaved, or intimidated, by food, or the food industry, any more" - almost sounds like something Esther might write.

- I eat only strangers' leftover food – and it's the best diet I've ever had

SMH. My oh my. I wonder if she ever bothered to look into, much less study, how people provision themselves for through-hiking.

The goal of reducing waste is shared by many of us - but you don't do that by planning to spare leftovers. Most people calculate what to take down to the ounce -surely that's evident in the tone of the gracious French woman who gave up her own (planned) galette for Esther.

I mean, I get that some people do roll this way - it's just not the safest way to roll. Sometimes...there are few people and often, there are no leftovers. In fact, it shows that she was used to hiking in more traveled/populated areas - this would not work (at all) on many trails. For many reasons.

These are life/death circumstances we're talking about. We're talking about people (hikers in mountains) deliberately taking risks - and planning for that. It's like sky-diving. One does not leave things up to chance (IMO). But if this is the subculture, then...well, it explains quite a few things.

There's a motto used among van life people (and others): Safety Third.

Esther never wrote those words, though. So I am hoping she knew how to gauge the situations she was in and is somewhere safe in a different life. Safely.

 

[RickshawFan]

Regarding asking for food, it's quirky but I don't see a reason to disapprove - just say no! If I had food that I was prepared to give away I would give it. It certainly wouldn't be my tastiest stuff - more likely a squashed 18 hour old sandwich destined for the bin. If I had food that I wanted to keep I would just either say so, or just say sorry no.

This article is interesting, I remember reading it some time ago - it gives a different take on getting food for free. Maybe Esther was coming from a similar place, ie maybe she saw herself as asking for leftovers, as a way of reducing "systemic waste", this would seem to fit in with the lifestyle she and DC were trying to lead. Quote from the article - "In London, in good weather, the food-wasters can be very generous." And maybe getting food for free was also about permitting herself to eat things that she wouldn't normally eat ie non-vegan food (I think we've mentioned this before).

The last lines of the article - "It’s all about busting consumerist norms. I don’t feel enslaved, or intimidated, by food, or the food industry, any more" - almost sounds like something Esther might write.

- I eat only strangers' leftover food – and it's the best diet I've ever had

In the backcountry, it's just not done; not really in town, either. Food may be offered—I've often found people incredibly generous (though I was unexpectedly "invited" to go to church in return for a hot breakfast, after I'd already eaten, which did quite surprise me)—but it's NEVER asked for. Sorry, that's called begging when you ask strangers for food.

Two peanut butter sandwiches—and one emergency spare to finish up back at the campervan if it was left over—would have tided ED over on a day hike. Plus, a carrot, some celery sticks, a couple of dates. That's it! She liked quinoa? Take a batch in a baggie with a little olive oil, a few raisins, and other bits. Cheap, easy, safe.

Dumpster diving is a whole different subject. It's either "woke" or desperate. Either of those types would be dangerous company on a mountain. Personally, I'd deliberately hike out of their orbit, by going super fast or dawdling.

In 6 months thru-hiking the AT, I never once had someone ask me for food. That's how "not done" it is.