Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #4

[RickshawFan]

How long does it take for a place to come to mean something to someone? Ever found a place and been instantly smitten by it?

Snipped for focus.
You are SO right! I can see being smitten by the view from the Pic, too, especially on a clear day. Me, though maybe not smitten, I'd be awed.
But this is partly, too, why I fear for ED's safety. The trails in and around those mountains look so easy and accessible. Why, a mere scamper will get you to the Hospice! So seductive, but oh, what a dangerous plan. The same with the glacier: she will have seen the tracks though the snow right there in front of her nose, and that, too, might beckon.

 

[Quietey]

I don't think you're understanding the issue in big wilderness spaces.

It's not hikers' etiquette to provision others. It's rude on the trail to ask for water. In hiking long distance, hikers plan exactly how little to carry and how to cover their own bases. Plus a little extra, if they are expert/prepared.

However, I'm sure the mountains are filled with people who are not following hiking etiquette - which is why the rest of us carry extra (but...for someone to ask for something repeatedly is no bueno...)

Hi @10ofRods thanks for that but I can clarify that I do understand the issue in a wilderness space, I posted the article to give another take on it, to broaden our understanding of how others might think. Plus I thought it was interesting, if somewhat revolting. Granted, it was November and Esther certainly went into the wilderness, but this part of her route (in summer at least) was very much by all accounts a heavily populated, family-day-out type walk, not just for seasoned wilderness hikers.

We don't know how Esther's mind worked and whether she understood the issue in a wilderness space, or whether scrimping and saving had become such a norm for her that the didn't appreciate how it might come across to some people. Like I said, as a day hiker it wouldn't bother me at all, I would probably have had a brief chat and given the things that I genuinely didn't want (if there were any - I've got a good appetite!), or if I was nearly finished my walk, feeling generous and liked the person I might give them some of the better items!

Plus she might have been very well prepared with plenty of dried supplies and was just supplementing - we really can only guess.

Just wanted to clarify!

 

[Quietey]

Thanks Fridaybaker you make some good points. As there has been so much discussion on this I was only trying simplify things in order it can be fully explored and then, hopefully, put to bed.

I don't think, to be fair though, that I was really being ternary was I? I did say I was between 1 and 2 myself, hence allowing for a wider range of stances. Perhaps it might have been better if I had used a spectrum analogy.

TBH personally I don't think there probably is much more to be extracted on this theme but we shall see. Your point about naivety and vulnerability is interesting, and I wonder if some of our more experience hikers would have a take on that? I think in thread#1 when I raised the notion of vulnerability of a lone female hiker it was countered by those with more experience than I, and the consensus was that it is in fact very safe.

ETA: no, forget the spectrum analogy - you said all 3. I'm overthinking this now

BBM

On the subject of vulnerability - my take on this is that is just takes one person, whether in a city, on a trail, or anywhere else, who is minded to do another person harm. I don't see why persons in the wilderness should be perceived as any less likely to do so at all, particularly in lockdown when all sorts of other factors might come into play.

Something which sticks in my mind is that a family member of a very close friend was killed by someone she knew in strange and awful circumstances. I never met him, but he had a really unusual name which I googled and saw that he (or at least someone of the same very unusual name) had posted on boards asking for hiking companions to join up with along the route he was planning on taking. This was after he had killed someone and before it was found out.

In fact, I think that it is possible that there are people who go into the wilderness to escape all kinds of demons.

Just my opinion, of course!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Exactly, Quietey... what might seem rude or desperate to some may come across entirely differently to others. Esther is British and as a nation we’re pretty friendly and help each other out. A quick “nice to meet you, don’t suppose you’ve got a bit of fruit to power me up this hill lol” wouldn’t be considered “begging” here. Cheeky, maybe, but I very much doubt it would upset anyone or make them suspicious. Perhaps some cultural differences going on here!

 

[IrisElizabeth]

Exactly, Quietey... what might seem rude or desperate to some may come across entirely differently to others. Esther is British and as a nation we’re pretty friendly and help each other out. A quick “nice to meet you, don’t suppose you’ve got a bit of fruit to power me up this hill lol” wouldn’t be considered “begging” here. Cheeky, maybe, but I very much doubt it would upset anyone or make them suspicious. Perhaps some cultural differences going on here!

Hmm not sure I agree with this. I'm British too and I found the statement that Dan made about Esther asking for fruit as a way of connecting with people pretty odd and not really the done thing. I've never been asked for food on a hike by a stranger or would think of asking myself. The norm would be to chat about the route or the weather. To me this behaviour does come across as begging or at least having a strange sense of entitlement to someone else's supplies.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Hmm not sure I agree with this. I'm British too and I found the statement that Dan made about Esther asking for fruit as a way of connecting with people pretty odd and not really the done thing. I've never been asked for food on a hike by a stranger or would think of asking myself. The norm would be to chat about the route or the weather. To me this behaviour does come across as begging or at least having a strange sense of entitlement to someone else's supplies.

Oh well, different strokes for different folks then. I think, without context of the conversation, it’s impossible to denounce Esther as some sort of weirdo beggar like many posters have. Maybe I’m just fortunate that that’s not my first reaction, and that I live in a part of the country where chatting to strangers is normal!

 

[Quietey]

Exactly, Quietey... what might seem rude or desperate to some may come across entirely differently to others. Esther is British and as a nation we’re pretty friendly and help each other out. A quick “nice to meet you, don’t suppose you’ve got a bit of fruit to power me up this hill lol” wouldn’t be considered “begging” here. Cheeky, maybe, but I very much doubt it would upset anyone or make them suspicious. Perhaps some cultural differences going on here!

Thanks @CoverMeCagney - funnily enough I was just cooking pasta and thinking about the cultural difference thing, and wondering whether that was a factor. As well as peoples' own personalities of course. I live in the north west of England and often chat with strangers. I've have had some really nice chats on public transport, while walking dogs etc. Well I thought they were nice chats and unless I'm totally deluded the other person did too lol. When I lived in London I found peoples' reactions very different though.

Regarding generosity - I've seen loads of people going really overboard in with kindness to people on the streets where I live - definitely more generous than I would be which is why it stood out!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Thanks @CoverMeCagney - funnily enough I was just cooking pasta and thinking about the cultural difference thing, and wondering whether that was a factor. As well as peoples' own personalities of course. In northern UK I've seen loads of people going really overboard with kindness to people on the streets - definitely more generous than I would be which is why it stood out!

Lol I’m in Yorkshire so maybe that explains my mindset!

 

[Sarahlou]

Lol I’m in Yorkshire so maybe that explains my mindset!

Haha I was thinking you MUST live in the North as it's not like that where I live in the South!

(To be fair, if you have a dog strangers chat, otherwise not so much)

 

[Grouse]

Haha I was thinking you MUST live in the North as it's not like that where I live in the South!

(To be fair, if you have dog strangers chat, otherwise not so much)

I'm from, and now in, the North but have lived in the South as well and the difference regarding talking to strangers was very striking. Up here it's normal to do so, even in large cities like the one I grew up in, but in the South when I've done it it has been usually met with suspicion, or at least awkwardness. I get the feeling that a lot of Southerners really want to be more open but just find it difficult. The ones I've met who have moved up North seem to really embrace it.

ETA: in the context of ED's behaviour, while she was brought up in the South she'd lived in Durham.

 

[Grouse]

<snipped for focus>
Something which sticks in my mind is that a family member of a very close friend was killed by someone she knew in strange and awful circumstances. I never met him, but he had a really unusual name which I googled and saw that he (or at least someone of the same very unusual name) had posted on boards asking for hiking companions to join up with along the route he was planning on taking. This was after he had killed someone and before it was found out.

Sorry to read about your friend's loss Quietey. That's very surprising that he used his real name on the forums.

 

[RickshawFan]

Granted, it was November and Esther certainly went into the wilderness, but this part of her route (in summer at least) was very much by all accounts a heavily populated, family-day-out type walk, not just for seasoned wilderness hikers.

Snipped for focus
I'm not sure whether this would be relevant here: the trails were vacant because it was November as well as COVID and ED was traveling solo. There's pretty much no one out there.
ED had been on mountain trails all summer and would have been familiar with hiker protocol.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Snipped for focus
I'm not sure whether this would be relevant here: the trails were vacant because it was November as well as COVID and ED was traveling solo. There's pretty much no one out there.
ED had been on mountain trails all summer and would have been familiar with hiker protocol.

And I think this was her one big mistake - any other issues would generally be inconsequential. Solo hiking in the middle of nowhere with barely a soul around and patchy phone signal. Realistically, a simple twisted ankle could have been bad enough up there, all alone for hours or even days without being able to get help.

 

[RickshawFan]

On the subject of vulnerability - my take on this is that is just takes one person, whether in a city, on a trail, or anywhere else, who is minded to do another person harm. I don't see why persons in the wilderness should be perceived as any less likely to do so at all, particularly in lockdown when all sorts of other factors might come into play.

Snipped for focus
The incidence of malevolence is very low on trails. Sure, there's occasional trouble (the year before last a man went berserk on the AT and killed someone; others had to run for their lives).
If you're looking for a crime target, victims are much readier to hand in town.
Since there's a COVID lockdown in France—not to mention it was winter—the odds of a criminal finding a victim on a French trail in the high mountains were almost zero at the time ED went missing. There's no one out there.

 

[Grouse]

Hi @10ofRods thanks for that but I can clarify that I do understand the issue in a wilderness space, I posted the article to give another take on it, to broaden our understanding of how others might think.

I am wondering if the perceptions of what wilderness is are becoming a factor here. I think the posters who are in North America have a different perspective because when they call it a wilderness it probably really is a wilderness.

I may be wrong, and I'm certainly not dismissing the dangers of treks in the Pyrenees and the Alps , but in Europe I think you'd have to go to somewhere like the Białowieża Forest (a place I would love to visit BTW) to find a true wilderness that compares with some of those in North America. MOO but just a thought in trying to understand where everyone is coming from.

 

[RickshawFan]

TBH I wasn't sure if you were being serious either, but I just googled it and wow, it's quite common.

Carters Lake: Man slipped and fell into toilet pit before found covered in human waste more than an hour later | Daily Mail Online

“I fell into a pit of mud and human waste”

Apparently they need to be 2m deep to be effective, I hadn't realised - as per Design Considerations section in --> https://sswm.info/factsheet/single-pit

On that basis I can't see how they wouldn't have been checked by LE.

I knew it! My casalatrinophobia is warranted after all!

 

[RickshawFan]

I am wondering if the perceptions of what wilderness is are becoming a factor here. I think the posters who are in North America have a different perspective because when they call it a wilderness it probably really is a wilderness.

I may be wrong, and I'm certainly not dismissing the dangers of treks in the Pyrenees and the Alps , but in Europe I think you'd have to go to somewhere like the Białowieża Forest (a place I would love to visit BTW) to find a true wilderness that compares with some of those in North America. MOO but just a thought in trying to understand where everyone is coming from.

I can speak for myself in saying I am very familiar with European mountain spaces, even though I have done a vast amount of hiking in the US.

 

[Grouse]

I can speak for myself in saying I am very familiar with European mountain spaces, even though I have done a vast amount of hiking in the US.

Fair enough, no disrespect was intended, if anything it was the opposite. I was just trying to explore the different angles as there is some tension on this thread that is becoming palpable.

 

[RickshawFan]

I am wondering if the perceptions of what wilderness is are becoming a factor here. I think the posters who are in North America have a different perspective because when they call it a wilderness it probably really is a wilderness.

I may be wrong, and I'm certainly not dismissing the dangers of treks in the Pyrenees and the Alps , but in Europe I think you'd have to go to somewhere like the Białowieża Forest (a place I would love to visit BTW) to find a true wilderness that compares with some of those in North America. MOO but just a thought in trying to understand where everyone is coming from.

Maybe we should make a distinction between "backcountry" and "wilderness", instead of wilderness vs. non-wilderness?
IMO everything we're looking at for this case qualifies as "backcountry".

Examples:
The US east coast has almost no wilderness, but it does have backcountry. An example is the Appalachian Trail. You can see towns, hear the interstate, hitch to a Walmart everywhere but maybe Maine. Some people stay at motels almost every night for their entire thru hike. So, there's backcountry on the AT, but almost zero wilderness even though people describe it as wilderness.
I have seen many wild spaces and definite "backcountry" in England, but no real "wilderness".

 

[Quietey]

Sorry to read about your friend's loss Quietey. That's very surprising that he used his real name on the forums.

You're right that does sound a bit odd but it didn't strike me as odd at the time, I can't remember exactly where I read it - the man was a prolific blogger so maybe it was on there. It was a few years ago but I had a v quick look now and his blogs are still online. My friend's life has been changed forever, and the person concerned was eventually convicted and is in a UK prison.