Steven Avery & Brendan Dassey get new representation

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Ok, I stand corrected....but when did they start, after all the sensation about this case? Where were they on appeal? As I understand, there was no line of attorney waiting to take up Avery's case? Where was Kathleen Zellner then? Isn't this case right up her alley?

Here is an interesting article with regard to the Wisconsin Innocence Project and their non-involvement in SA's murder conviction case.

That said, imnsho, the attorneys who are clamoring to take Avery's case are doing so for far from altruistic reasons.

I found Zellner's since deleted tweet about the alleged deleted voicemails to be quite telling. That is, if she really believes the VMs are her lynchpin to get SA's verdict overturned, why oh why would she alert the alleged "real killer(s)"?

To my mind, she was grandstanding... and, in this sense, her behavior is really not a great deal different from Kratz and his unnecessary offensive grandstanding when he told 15-year olds to go to bed, so he could describe his "sexually charged lurid fantasy."

As for the Innocence Project involvement? I don't remember which one, outside of, that it is from a different state, (I want to say Kansas but could be totally wrong) has joined Zellner.

I do think the revived interest is in response to, not the docuseries, per se, rather, the public response the docuseries has garnered on social media.

This is, admittedly, my jaundiced opinion.
 
Wow ... having watched the Netflix series and just watched the Nancy Grace special, I'm not sure even Kathleen Zellner can help either Steven or Brendan.

Brendan's confession in the Grace special is too detailed IMO to be made up. Also, Avery tells investigators that he saw Halbach leave the property which would mean someone pulled her over while driving, killed her, and then dumped the car and remains on the property. Also, an investigator told Avery that they found Teresa's blood in the house and Avery replied that "it couldn't be". Probably cuz he knew the murder was committed in the garage.

I'm now convinced Avery / Dassey are guilty ...
 
Wow ... having watched the Netflix series and just watched the Nancy Grace special, I'm not sure even Kathleen Zellner can help either Steven or Brendan.

Brendan's confession in the Grace special is too detailed IMO to be made up. Also, Avery tells investigators that he saw Halbach leave the property which would mean someone pulled her over while driving, killed her, and then dumped the car and remains on the property. Also, an investigator told Avery that they found Teresa's blood in the house and Avery replied that "it couldn't be". Probably cuz he knew the murder was committed in the garage.

I'm now convinced Avery / Dassey are guilty ...

I do hope you can find the time to do a little more research about the case and Brendan's many interviews than just rely on Nancy Grace's take and the Netflix series take on this case.

Pay close attention to who states specific facts first, because that is what would really incriminate Brendan -- If he were to say something only he could know, BEFORE the police fed that to him.

I believe there is a thread on this forum now based on just this topic alone.

My opinion on this case has changed drastically after learning more about it.
 
I do hope you can find the time to do a little more research about the case and Brendan's many interviews than just rely on Nancy Grace's take and the Netflix series take on this case.

Pay close attention to who states specific facts first, because that is what would really incriminate Brendan -- If he were to say something only he could know, BEFORE the police fed that to him.

I believe there is a thread on this forum now based on just this topic alone.

My opinion on this case has changed drastically after learning more about it.

I believe you may be talking about the Charlie Erickson thread. He was coerced into a false confession and testifying against Ryan Ferguson (also has a thread on WS). LE had coerced witness statements to in turn coerce Charlie. Kathleen Zellner is Ryan's attorney who got his conviction set aside and out of prison. Charlie is still in prison as we speak...some three years later.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...viction-be-Overturned&p=12291972#post12291972
 
Northwestern University’s Center on Wrongful Convictions of Youth are representing Brendan.
 
I believe you may be talking about the Charlie Erickson thread. He was coerced into a false confession and testifying against Ryan Ferguson (also has a thread on WS). LE had coerced witness statements to in turn coerce Charlie. Kathleen Zellner is Ryan's attorney who got his conviction set aside and out of prison. Charlie is still in prison as we speak...some three years later.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...viction-be-Overturned&p=12291972#post12291972

I was referring to one of the threads specifically about Brendan, but yes, that's a good example of the same kind of thing happening.

False Confessions are real, and I had a very different opinion about the dassey confession before learning more about interrogation methods and false confessions. I don't know that 100% of what brendan says is false, but I think it's really clear that it all can't be true. So how can we trust any of it ?


Someone who doesn't understand that he's likely not going home after confessing to rape and murder, has some issues with intelligence imo. Is there anyone that believes that was an act ? That he spewed out all that and was acting like he didn't get the ramifications of confessing to rape/murder ?

I just can't see it.
 
I think maybe the biggest mistake in the Dassey trial was putting him on the stand. His strong point is not public speaking obviously.

This part was maybe the worst question and answer that could have gone on :

Q: Why did you lie to him?
A: Because I'm just like my family. I don't like cops.


So, while I get the sentiment and why, it's just something that the prosecution likely loved hearing.

I think he had a better shot, by just having experts explain his intelligence level and how it relates to false confessions.

Then pinpoint where things were said BEFORE he repeated them, to prove he didn't come up with them independently.

Also they should have gone to further lengths to question conversations with him outside the taped interviews and if they had prepped him for these interviews or discussed information about the case casually with him. Let them lie under oath. It's something that maybe later you can use against them.

Answering "I don't know" as to why you said something doesn't look good imo. Not being articulate enough to say things like - I'd been there for hours and nothing I said that was truthful was something they wanted to accept. -- made him come across as almost defiant and giving the jury no reason to understand why he said the things he did.





 
Charles Erickson kept telling people he thought he might have killed someone because he couldn't remember the events of the night he went to the bar, and he specifically implicated himself in the killing of Kent Hightholt a couple years after the murder occurred. He mouthed off at a party and someone at the party then informed police, who brought Erickson in for an interview, which then turned into an interrogation. Erickson threw himself under the bus, then threw Ryan Ferguson under the bus in addition. Had Erickson not kept saying he might have been involved in that murder, police never would have had any reason to suspect him.

This is a bit different from Dassey in that we know SA was with the victim the same afternoon she was murdered, his DNA was found in her vehicle, he had a cut on his finger that bled, and the victim's body was found on his property in charred little pieces, entangled with steel belts and he had a large bonfire in which he put a number of steel-belted tires.

There was no forensic link between either Erickson or Ferguson to Hightholt's murder, and there is a forensic link between Teresa and Steve Avery, along with the established fact that Avery was with TH at the time her cell phone was never used again and she went missing.

I had zero doubt that Ryan Ferguson & Charles Erickson were both innocent.

I cannot say the same for Steve Avery for several reasons I've stated before. Brendan Dassey I don't know. I don't believe he actually killed Teresa though he might have been manipulated to 'help' his uncle.
 
First of all, the 'glove' did fit, OJ Simpson play acted and had a pair of latex gloves on and he made sure that glove wouldn't fit. A few of the jurors in their book said they didn't believe that spectacle by Simpson or Cochran and didn't give any weight to it. So you can put that to rest. That glove *did* fit. And he did own those "ugly *advertiser censored* shoes," the ones he said he would never own or wear. Pictures taken 10 months before the murder prove that very fact.

The only way LE found out what happened to Teresa was through their interviews with Branden Dassey. Until he told them, they had no idea what all went down that day. All they knew was TH showed up, took her pictures, gave SA the receipt and was never seen alive again. Her charred remains were found in the burn pit in SA's yard. What were they to think?

Now we can say Brendan made it all up under pressure and none of it can be believed, but without hearing what Brendan had to say, the investigators wouldn't all be saying anything about what happened during her visit as they wouldn't have known those details.


Mostly lurking, but every post of yours is the voice of reason...Thank you for continually chiming in, I totally agree with you.
 
When Avery was convicted the first time, he was put away by LE ignoring the guy who did it, even though other law enforcement bodies insisted he was likely the guy.

18 years later they got it right, not by them admitting they screwed up, but by a 3rd party proving it.

Now these guys have been in jail 10 years and there are still big questions to be answered. A whole slew of people never investigated. Some never even asked to give an alibi.

So why shouldn't anyone be questioning if maybe LE didn't fully investigate this case , just like last time around ?


No one is asking to let anyone go if they aren't innocent. We are asking for a fair trial and a proper investigation.

Isn't that what is supposed to happen ?

Sure, that is what's supposed to happen. Folks have been claiming Steven/Brendan are innocent for 10 years now, but no one has produced any evidence to overturn their convictions. Apparently, Kathleen Zellner has some new evidence to present so we'll see.
 
Sure, that is what's supposed to happen. Folks have been claiming Steven/Brendan are innocent for 10 years now, but no one has produced any evidence to overturn their convictions. Apparently, Kathleen Zellner has some new evidence to present so we'll see.

I could look up a ton of cases that innocence is proven ten+ years after conviction but the Avery rape case is the first one to come to mind at the moment.
 
Sure, that is what's supposed to happen. Folks have been claiming Steven/Brendan are innocent for 10 years now, but no one has produced any evidence to overturn their convictions. Apparently, Kathleen Zellner has some new evidence to present so we'll see.

It took 18 years to get Steve out the first time. My opinion is you should get it right the first time. What happened in the first case, happened again in the second case.

Regardless of whether avery is innocent or guilty, the investigation was narrow and excluded suspicious people completely, and how exactly can you pose an alternative suspect if that's LE's responsibility to investigate and provide that evidence ?

If they don't ask for an alibi from the ex-boyfriend, how can he be ever seen as a suspect ?

If they don't fully investigate Chuck Avery, how can ever be seen as a suspect ? yet he had all the same access to the junkyard as avery and a history of sexual assault and harassing/stalking women that got towed to the junkyard. Yet he has no alibi that we can see ?

Doesn't that sound familiar ? Allen was not even put in the lineup. Not even questioned. He was the rapist. other law enforcement pointed to him and even when allen confessed and LE was contacted, they still buried that information.

Now you think everyone should just trust that people were properly investigated ? why ? It puzzles me that some people trust the same LE that did exactly what they are being accused of now.
 
It took 18 years to get Steve out the first time. My opinion is you should get it right the first time. What happened in the first case, happened again in the second case.

Regardless of whether avery is innocent or guilty, the investigation was narrow and excluded suspicious people completely, and how exactly can you pose an alternative suspect if that's LE's responsibility to investigate and provide that evidence ?

If they don't ask for an alibi from the ex-boyfriend, how can he be ever seen as a suspect ?

If they don't fully investigate Chuck Avery, how can ever be seen as a suspect ? yet he had all the same access to the junkyard as avery and a history of sexual assault and harassing/stalking women that got towed to the junkyard. Yet he has no alibi that we can see ?

Doesn't that sound familiar ? Allen was not even put in the lineup. Not even questioned. He was the rapist. other law enforcement pointed to him and even when allen confessed and LE was contacted, they still buried that information.

Now you think everyone should just trust that people were properly investigated ? why ? It puzzles me that some people trust the same LE that did exactly what they are being accused of now.

Unfortunately, the justice system does not always get it right the 1st time. I followed the Ryan Ferguson case for years and could never understand why they never investigated the Tennessee gambling connection and fellow sportswriter, Michael Boyd.

I'm all for reopening the Avery/Dassey cases to an impartial investigation and retrials/releases if deemed appropriate. Kathleen Zellner would not have taken the case unless she totally believes in Avery's innocence. She must have uncovered some serious exculpatory evidence or I can guarantee that she would not put her good name on the line.

As for me, I need to read the trial transcripts both both trials and go through the interrogation tapes and other interviews. I did the watch the Netflix and Nancy Grace interviews and various other stories about why Avery was either guilty or innocent.

I'll be back at some point armed with more case knowledge ...
 
While I wholly support innocence organizations, I cannot say that I fully understand how they work. Or, rather, I have always thought they basically found exculpating evidence... generally DNA, to get their client's cases overturned.

Having said that, the more I read articles regarding Ms. Zellner's involvement in both SA's and Dassey's cases, along with her tweets, the more I am inclined to think she is going for getting both of their convictions overturned, as opposed to, say, going for a retrial.

I could quite obviously be wrong. Regardless, I am interested in what others think.
 
While I wholly support innocence organizations, I cannot say that I fully understand how they work. Or, rather, I have always thought they basically found exculpating evidence... generally DNA, to get their client's cases overturned.

Having said that, the more I read articles regarding Ms. Zellner's involvement in both SA's and Dassey's cases, along with her tweets, the more I am inclined to think she is going for getting both of their convictions overturned, as opposed to, say, going for a retrial.

I could quite obviously be wrong. Regardless, I am interested in what others think.


Whilst it is different over here in the UK, my University Innocence Project ran (and still runs) alongside the Innocence Project over at Princeton. Some background:

The innocence projects here took on Client's on a first basis after some initial correspondence between them and us, after which the whole caseloads could be taken. We didn't actually get as many letters as one might consider, but the ones that we did get would often be very serious crimes- rape, s18 assault, attempted murder, murder. We would interview the Client if possible, or a representative would be sent, and then a decision made on whether we would attempt to take this further based on what they were presenting to us- note that it was a very, for lack of a better saying, people based decision and could boil down to how the person presented themselves I believe. I am not sure I agree with how the initial selection was made but funding is ever an issue here.

This would undoubtedly take some time combing through any evidence and trial documents that we would receive if we took on a case. The whole process of getting trial documents is an absolute pain as there are often, in big cases, upwards of 40 boxes of bundles to go through and really get through. Multiple appeals add more and more to the workload. It requires a team and a lot of effort which is why many University Innocence Projects do them, as although they work on a charity basis with a lead Solicitor, students are not paid for their work which is often months, days and days worth of foraging and building even an idea of the case.

Here, at this point, we would 'take on a case' but the case wouldn't really be 'going for any kind of result' until after all these documents had been taken on and thoroughly examined- imagine how difficult this actually is in practice. Usually we would take on higher profile cases as funding was more likely to come if there was public interest in the case. No matter what the personal outlook of the team may be entering a case. It may become apparent that this is how they work over there too, it is very easy for it to become public that you are touching base with someone maintaining their innocence and 'taking their case', but this is a layered process and there is a point when you have to walk away or dive in. I cannot stress enough how 'taking a case' initially really isn't taking on someones case to fight for them. Its an exploratory process, the first green light in a long line of reds, and doesn't always lead somewhere. I don't know how long Zellner has been involved with the Avery case behind the scenes, but I would be interested to find out to give a better impression of where I think she will try and go with this, and whether in fact she will continue down the road once she has had a full team investigating this (or if she already has, instead of jumping on the hype bandwagon).

With regard to Zellner's approach to the cases and going for a retrial or acquittal, most of the cases I have worked on have not in fact turned on evidence. Old cases crossed over with Princeton which were extremely old, yes (most of which were 'committed' before I was even born!), but these have become fewer and further between as times have gone on. They were mostly cases of men being picked up because of things like colour, poverty, general 'known round town' but very very obvious and severe cases of being picked for this reason.

The main process used now to try and acquit, here in the UK from what I have experienced, and to some extent to our friends across the Atlantic, is a procedural impropriety that would nullify the validity of the case/trial. That at some point there was such a mess up, such an unreasonable and unfathomable wrong that the case could only be seen when really picked apart and reviewed by a Judge, that it could not have reached the correct conclusion from this wrong having occurred or been present.

When I look at Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey's case, I find it disturbingly easy to find points which I would find irreparably wrong with the whole set up (the confession of Brendan, the Police departments conduct) despite the fact that upon weight I err that Steven is guilty.

Here in the UK, I would have considered they would have been freed by now if this trial had occurred here or at least the case reopened.
 
Thank you so much for taking the time to clarify, Malli! And yes, I too, tend to feel as you have stated, and I quote: "I find it disturbingly easy to find points which I would find irreparably wrong with the whole set up (the confession of Brendan, the Police departments conduct) despite the fact that upon weight I err that Steven is guilty." Thanks again. :)
 
Thank you so much for taking the time to clarify, Malli! And yes, I too, tend to feel as you have stated, and I quote: "I find it disturbingly easy to find points which I would find irreparably wrong with the whole set up (the confession of Brendan, the Police departments conduct) despite the fact that upon weight I err that Steven is guilty." Thanks again. :)

Happy to help. Please let me know if you have any other questions.
 
Whilst it is different over here in the UK, my University Innocence Project ran (and still runs) alongside the Innocence Project over at Princeton. Some background:

The innocence projects here took on Client's on a first basis after some initial correspondence between them and us, after which the whole caseloads could be taken. We didn't actually get as many letters as one might consider, but the ones that we did get would often be very serious crimes- rape, s18 assault, attempted murder, murder. We would interview the Client if possible, or a representative would be sent, and then a decision made on whether we would attempt to take this further based on what they were presenting to us- note that it was a very, for lack of a better saying, people based decision and could boil down to how the person presented themselves I believe. I am not sure I agree with how the initial selection was made but funding is ever an issue here.

This would undoubtedly take some time combing through any evidence and trial documents that we would receive if we took on a case. The whole process of getting trial documents is an absolute pain as there are often, in big cases, upwards of 40 boxes of bundles to go through and really get through. Multiple appeals add more and more to the workload. It requires a team and a lot of effort which is why many University Innocence Projects do them, as although they work on a charity basis with a lead Solicitor, students are not paid for their work which is often months, days and days worth of foraging and building even an idea of the case.

Here, at this point, we would 'take on a case' but the case wouldn't really be 'going for any kind of result' until after all these documents had been taken on and thoroughly examined- imagine how difficult this actually is in practice. Usually we would take on higher profile cases as funding was more likely to come if there was public interest in the case. No matter what the personal outlook of the team may be entering a case. It may become apparent that this is how they work over there too, it is very easy for it to become public that you are touching base with someone maintaining their innocence and 'taking their case', but this is a layered process and there is a point when you have to walk away or dive in. I cannot stress enough how 'taking a case' initially really isn't taking on someones case to fight for them. Its an exploratory process, the first green light in a long line of reds, and doesn't always lead somewhere. I don't know how long Zellner has been involved with the Avery case behind the scenes, but I would be interested to find out to give a better impression of where I think she will try and go with this, and whether in fact she will continue down the road once she has had a full team investigating this (or if she already has, instead of jumping on the hype bandwagon).

With regard to Zellner's approach to the cases and going for a retrial or acquittal, most of the cases I have worked on have not in fact turned on evidence. Old cases crossed over with Princeton which were extremely old, yes (most of which were 'committed' before I was even born!), but these have become fewer and further between as times have gone on. They were mostly cases of men being picked up because of things like colour, poverty, general 'known round town' but very very obvious and severe cases of being picked for this reason.

The main process used now to try and acquit, here in the UK from what I have experienced, and to some extent to our friends across the Atlantic, is a procedural impropriety that would nullify the validity of the case/trial. That at some point there was such a mess up, such an unreasonable and unfathomable wrong that the case could only be seen when really picked apart and reviewed by a Judge, that it could not have reached the correct conclusion from this wrong having occurred or been present.

When I look at Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey's case, I find it disturbingly easy to find points which I would find irreparably wrong with the whole set up (the confession of Brendan, the Police departments conduct) despite the fact that upon weight I err that Steven is guilty.

Here in the UK, I would have considered they would have been freed by now if this trial had occurred here or at least the case reopened.

Had the case been anywhere but Manitowoc county, the same might have been the case.

I heard Strang saying that he chose to stay in the area, because he felt that people familiar with the first rape conviction and then subsequent exoneration which exposed law enforcement failures first hand would be an advantage.

But, if you can't manage to get a father of a Manitowoc Deputy off your jury, then that's gonna obviously be a problem. Strang said he used his 6 strikes against jurors he all saw as more questionable than the father of a deputy! So you have to wonder if he made the right choice.

Will Zellner choose to keep a possible new trial in the state ? Now that the case has become a national topic, I think you have a better shot outside the county. I'd not give them any ability to manipulate things.
 
Thank you so much for taking the time to clarify, Malli! And yes, I too, tend to feel as you have stated, and I quote: "I find it disturbingly easy to find points which I would find irreparably wrong with the whole set up (the confession of Brendan, the Police departments conduct) despite the fact that upon weight I err that Steven is guilty." Thanks again. :)

Not to dissuade from what Malli said, I watched a program on ID where the Innocence Project was involved. Barry Scheck (?) was interviewed. He stated they roughly go through the same process but he said they would review all the court records prior to accepting any case. His organization would look to see if biological evidence was collected but not tested. They would also talk to the defendant but the determining fact for taking on a case was made prior to accepting the case and only after all the court records were reviewed.
 
Okay, found a quote from Ms. Zellner:

“We are continuing to examine every aspect of Mr. Avery’s case and all of his legal options,” Kathleen T. Zellner said in a statement Monday. “We are confident Mr. Avery’s conviction will be vacated when we present the new evidence and results of our work to the appropriate court.” (Jan 11, 2006, NBC Chicago)

Imho, getting a case remanded for a new trial is one thing. Having the conviction vacated is a different thing completely. I admittedly wait with bated breath to learn what they have found that makes them as confident as their statement implies. Though, honestly, my gut says this is a case of arrogance and grandstanding that is liable to backfire.
 

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