Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder? #2

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I first want to say I am only on part 1 E:9 of the Netflix documentary of this specific case. I’m positive everyone knows way more facts surrounding this case by now than I do! But this case compelled me to stop the series and start searching online & create an account here! I myself have been convicted of a crime I did not commit because I could not afford an attorney to fight the charges! So I can relate to cases involving wrongful convictions! And have also witnessed first hand the lengths some will go threw to get a conviction wrong or right! I can not say at this point with certainty what happened in this case! But from what I’ve watched this far I strongly feel this entire case raises a TON of questions!!!! 1st there’s no motive for Avery, 2nd the evidence found is very questionable! I know the family accused was not very bright many of them but... this man was wrongfully accused before had a law suit pending was trying to get his life back, had things to look forward too such as money a family etc... why would he murder a woman, place her car in such an obviously noticeable place, burn her body in his back yard, his nephew was his alibi and supposedly his accomplice! He knew his nephew was not bright enough nor strong enough to keep a secret that big yet names him as his alibi. Why was her blood in her car? Why were her bones found in 2 separate locations? And since they found bones in 2 spots why were the bulk of bones found behind Averys home if they were obviously moved?? Why were VM’s deleted? Why did the room mate and ex seem very nervous and unsure how to answer when reporters asked when they were on the property? Why did the cop call in her plate number & say the make model & year of the vehicle unless he found it? And how did he know the plate number when the car was found on Avery’s lot had no plate on it? Why was the only DNA Found on the victims key only Avery’s? Why was no blood found anywhere of the victim in the home or garage? Why did Bobby and the other guys hunting stories and time lines not match? I mean I could go on and on! I’ve never committed murder but I’ve watched enough things to know you don’t kill a person for no reason, you don’t kill a person and place their vehicle on your property and especially in an obvious location, you don’t stab, slice, rape, shoot, or burn a body and not leave any traces of blood or splatter in the area the person was killed! I have never burned a body but I have burned my hair and it smells horrible! You can’t tell me an entire body was burned and no one smelled a burning body that night or at least a foul smell during the “bon fire”! Witnesses knew a fire was done that evening, witnesses said how “high” the fire was yet none of them smelled a foul stench!! I do not feel Avery or his nephew accused committed this crime! I can not explain how Avery’s blood ended up inside the Toyota but I am one million percent convinced someone did set Avery up! I am convinced that the real killer knew Avery was an easy target to set up! And I do believe the cops were once again convinced of Averys guilt and did not do a proper, full & fair investigation of this crime! I do believe the police knew they were in deep trouble given the wrongful conviction the first time and what better way to make that all go away than to prove Avery may have been wrongfully convicted before but at the end of the day he was a monster & thank god he was off the streets 18 yrs or god only knows the damage he may have done over that time period! I have however been convinced & questioning from the start several peoples involvement the room mate, ex boyfriend and Scott & Bobby. I can’t say with certainty who planted the evidence but all 4 of those men & the cops had opportunity and access to plant evidence! I think the jury only decided a verdict because they wanted to be done with this case and that’s not fair! I feel everything was very questionable and since it was questionable they never should have came back with a guilty verdict! I think other possible suspects NEED & SHOULD be investigated and a new investigation should be completed. They need to present new evidence in my opinion to show without a reasonable doubt the men charged were without a doubt guilty! Because I am not convinced that they were! Sorry this is long but this case really really struck my core and I feel with every fiber in me those men charged ARE NOT GUILTY!
 
HotNHemi4mopar said:
I first want to say I am only on part 1 E:9 of the Netflix documentary of this specific case. I’m positive everyone knows way more facts surrounding this case by now than I do! But this case compelled me to stop the series and start searching online & create an account here! I myself have been convicted of a crime I did not commit because I could not afford an attorney to fight the charges! So I can relate to cases involving wrongful convictions! And have also witnessed first hand the lengths some will go threw to get a conviction wrong or right! I can not say at this point with certainty what happened in this case! But from what I’ve watched this far I strongly feel this entire case raises a TON of questions!!!! 1st there’s no motive for Avery, 2nd the evidence found is very questionable! I know the family accused was not very bright many of them but... this man was wrongfully accused before had a law suit pending was trying to get his life back, had things to look forward too such as money a family etc... why would he murder a woman, place her car in such an obviously noticeable place, burn her body in his back yard, his nephew was his alibi and supposedly his accomplice! He knew his nephew was not bright enough nor strong enough to keep a secret that big yet names him as his alibi. Why was her blood in her car? Why were her bones found in 2 separate locations? And since they found bones in 2 spots why were the bulk of bones found behind Averys home if they were obviously moved?? Why were VM’s deleted? Why did the room mate and ex seem very nervous and unsure how to answer when reporters asked when they were on the property? Why did the cop call in her plate number & say the make model & year of the vehicle unless he found it? And how did he know the plate number when the car was found on Avery’s lot had no plate on it? Why was the only DNA Found on the victims key only Avery’s? Why was no blood found anywhere of the victim in the home or garage? Why did Bobby and the other guys hunting stories and time lines not match? I mean I could go on and on! I’ve never committed murder but I’ve watched enough things to know you don’t kill a person for no reason, you don’t kill a person and place their vehicle on your property and especially in an obvious location, you don’t stab, slice, rape, shoot, or burn a body and not leave any traces of blood or splatter in the area the person was killed! I have never burned a body but I have burned my hair and it smells horrible! You can’t tell me an entire body was burned and no one smelled a burning body that night or at least a foul smell during the “bon fire”! Witnesses knew a fire was done that evening, witnesses said how “high” the fire was yet none of them smelled a foul stench!! I do not feel Avery or his nephew accused committed this crime! I can not explain how Avery’s blood ended up inside the Toyota but I am one million percent convinced someone did set Avery up! I am convinced that the real killer knew Avery was an easy target to set up! And I do believe the cops were once again convinced of Averys guilt and did not do a proper, full & fair investigation of this crime! I do believe the police knew they were in deep trouble given the wrongful conviction the first time and what better way to make that all go away than to prove Avery may have been wrongfully convicted before but at the end of the day he was a monster & thank god he was off the streets 18 yrs or god only knows the damage he may have done over that time period! I have however been convinced & questioning from the start several peoples involvement the room mate, ex boyfriend and Scott & Bobby. I can’t say with certainty who planted the evidence but all 4 of those men & the cops had opportunity and access to plant evidence! I think the jury only decided a verdict because they wanted to be done with this case and that’s not fair! I feel everything was very questionable and since it was questionable they never should have came back with a guilty verdict! I think other possible suspects NEED & SHOULD be investigated and a new investigation should be completed. They need to present new evidence in my opinion to show without a reasonable doubt the men charged were without a doubt guilty! Because I am not convinced that they were! Sorry this is long but this case really really struck my core and I feel with every fiber in me those men charged ARE NOT GUILTY!
Click to expand...

wait until you get to part 2!!
 
HotNHemi4mopar said:
I first want to say I am only on part 1 E:9 of the Netflix documentary of this specific case. I’m positive everyone knows way more facts surrounding this case by now than I do! But this case compelled me to stop the series and start searching online & create an account here! I myself have been convicted of a crime I did not commit because I could not afford an attorney to fight the charges! So I can relate to cases involving wrongful convictions! And have also witnessed first hand the lengths some will go threw to get a conviction wrong or right! I can not say at this point with certainty what happened in this case! But from what I’ve watched this far I strongly feel this entire case raises a TON of questions!!!! 1st there’s no motive for Avery, 2nd the evidence found is very questionable! I know the family accused was not very bright many of them but... this man was wrongfully accused before had a law suit pending was trying to get his life back, had things to look forward too such as money a family etc... why would he murder a woman, place her car in such an obviously noticeable place, burn her body in his back yard, his nephew was his alibi and supposedly his accomplice! He knew his nephew was not bright enough nor strong enough to keep a secret that big yet names him as his alibi. Why was her blood in her car? Why were her bones found in 2 separate locations? And since they found bones in 2 spots why were the bulk of bones found behind Averys home if they were obviously moved?? Why were VM’s deleted? Why did the room mate and ex seem very nervous and unsure how to answer when reporters asked when they were on the property? Why did the cop call in her plate number & say the make model & year of the vehicle unless he found it? And how did he know the plate number when the car was found on Avery’s lot had no plate on it? Why was the only DNA Found on the victims key only Avery’s? Why was no blood found anywhere of the victim in the home or garage? Why did Bobby and the other guys hunting stories and time lines not match? I mean I could go on and on! I’ve never committed murder but I’ve watched enough things to know you don’t kill a person for no reason, you don’t kill a person and place their vehicle on your property and especially in an obvious location, you don’t stab, slice, rape, shoot, or burn a body and not leave any traces of blood or splatter in the area the person was killed! I have never burned a body but I have burned my hair and it smells horrible! You can’t tell me an entire body was burned and no one smelled a burning body that night or at least a foul smell during the “bon fire”! Witnesses knew a fire was done that evening, witnesses said how “high” the fire was yet none of them smelled a foul stench!! I do not feel Avery or his nephew accused committed this crime! I can not explain how Avery’s blood ended up inside the Toyota but I am one million percent convinced someone did set Avery up! I am convinced that the real killer knew Avery was an easy target to set up! And I do believe the cops were once again convinced of Averys guilt and did not do a proper, full & fair investigation of this crime! I do believe the police knew they were in deep trouble given the wrongful conviction the first time and what better way to make that all go away than to prove Avery may have been wrongfully convicted before but at the end of the day he was a monster & thank god he was off the streets 18 yrs or god only knows the damage he may have done over that time period! I have however been convinced & questioning from the start several peoples involvement the room mate, ex boyfriend and Scott & Bobby. I can’t say with certainty who planted the evidence but all 4 of those men & the cops had opportunity and access to plant evidence! I think the jury only decided a verdict because they wanted to be done with this case and that’s not fair! I feel everything was very questionable and since it was questionable they never should have came back with a guilty verdict! I think other possible suspects NEED & SHOULD be investigated and a new investigation should be completed. They need to present new evidence in my opinion to show without a reasonable doubt the men charged were without a doubt guilty! Because I am not convinced that they were! Sorry this is long but this case really really struck my core and I feel with every fiber in me those men charged ARE NOT GUILTY!
Click to expand...
The ex and brother seemed very off to me
 
Siouxsie said:
I think he is innocent. I think she left averys and was followed by someone most likely from the Avery family. I don't think law enforcement did... How would they know she was there unless his phones was tapped, however I think they took the opportunity to cover it up and allow him to be blamed. The investigation was messed from the start. I also think if the blood in the car was visable like that if you take the time to remove plates and hide under debris and other things you would wipe the blood off surely!
Click to expand...

The car crusher is what sells this idea to me.

Steven knew how to use it and could have permanently gotten rid of that car.

He could have left all the blood in TH's body on it, crushed it, and never heard about it again. Yet, we are expected to believe that he just hid it under limbs, it was miraculously found within moments of the search, it had his blood in an odd place, and the key inexplicably appeared right beside his bed after 8 days of searching (by cops who had it out for him?)
 
I 100% believe that Avery and Dassey are innocent and they were framed. I thought what was presented in Part 1 of Making a Murderer was enough to conclude they were innocent but Part 2 sealed that belief for me. I have faith and I am confident that they will be free men one day and that their names will be cleared.
 
I am nearing the end of watching this for the first time and have problems with the Chicago attorney and her deductions about the evidence. There are other possibilites for everything she concludes as definitive proof blood was planted yet she never goes there. She tries to make the evidence fit her take on the crime and when she finds it stops further investigative experiments. She's working in one direction.

For the blood smear on the car dash she tried to replicate it by having someone seated in the driver's seat and trying to fidget around and remove the car key. The blood smear never transfered in the same way so she assumed it was planted by a swab. The experiment was incomplete as they never tried to remove the key from outside the car and sort of crouching, reaching around as we all have done if the keys are left in the car or from the passenger side. Her experiment was incomplete making her conclusions erroneous.

The same for the blood spatter on the back hatch. She tried to replicate the evidence but did not explore all possibilities. They had a bloody mannequin and tried to lift into the back and did not produce the pattern so brought out a bloody hammer and waved it until similar blood stains appeared on paper taped up, concluding because they could not make the same pattern it was planted. They did not see if the pattern could be made by driving down the bumpy unpaved ruts in the junk yard with the dead body jostling around in the back. They did not see what would happened if the body was put in a back door not the back hatch and shoved or pushed, what would those patterns look like?

The attorney was not in Wisconsin the night of the murder and does not have a magical ability to know what happened.
 
..... and the bullet they said went through her head could not have because it did have bone residue on it???? Give me a break, what if her skull had been bashed in by the monster that attacked her, there's plenty of opportunity for a bullet to pass through without contact with bone.
 
The original defence were weak. The police investigation was sloppy at best. Next to no investigation. They were pissed he had sued them. That Colborn was dlsquirming in the witness stand. It worries me that jury get caught up in the emotion of the murder rather then seeing the facts. What a case
 
sgrump said:
I am nearing the end of watching this for the first time and have problems with the Chicago attorney and her deductions about the evidence. There are other possibilites for everything she concludes as definitive proof blood was planted yet she never goes there. She tries to make the evidence fit her take on the crime and when she finds it stops further investigative experiments. She's working in one direction.

For the blood smear on the car dash she tried to replicate it by having someone seated in the driver's seat and trying to fidget around and remove the car key. The blood smear never transfered in the same way so she assumed it was planted by a swab. The experiment was incomplete as they never tried to remove the key from outside the car and sort of crouching, reaching around as we all have done if the keys are left in the car or from the passenger side. Her experiment was incomplete making her conclusions erroneous.

The same for the blood spatter on the back hatch. She tried to replicate the evidence but did not explore all possibilities. They had a bloody mannequin and tried to lift into the back and did not produce the pattern so brought out a bloody hammer and waved it until similar blood stains appeared on paper taped up, concluding because they could not make the same pattern it was planted. They did not see if the pattern could be made by driving down the bumpy unpaved ruts in the junk yard with the dead body jostling around in the back. They did not see what would happened if the body was put in a back door not the back hatch and shoved or pushed, what would those patterns look like?

The attorney was not in Wisconsin the night of the murder and does not have a magical ability to know what happened.
Click to expand...

IIRC, highly regarded physicists and other experts were consulted throughout the reenactments. I wouldn't say that Zellner drew the conclusions, as much as the experts she consulted did.

It's not just the reenactments. IMOO, the most compelling evidence of their innocence includes the ridiculous claims by LE as to various timelines of how and where discoveries "unfolded". Talk about trying until the "evidence" fits a theory! They could write the book on it!

Directionality is most often caused by high velocity blood splatter and cast off. (MOO) It can sometimes be caused by coughing in attempting to clear the respiratory system of blood, but a dead body can't cough.

AJMOO
 
Has anyone else had a chance to read through the new motion that KZ filed today? A new witness came forward to her, but had attempted to report what he saw on Nov. 5th, but was basically ignored. He saw BoD with another unidentified man pushing the Rav4 down Avery Rd. in the early hours of Nov. 5th. This could be big.
 
mattaculb said:
Has anyone else had a chance to read through the new motion that KZ filed today? A new witness came forward to her, but had attempted to report what he saw on Nov. 5th, but was basically ignored. He saw BoD with another unidentified man pushing the Rav4 down Avery Rd. in the early hours of Nov. 5th. This could be big.
Click to expand...

I just read up on it. BoD, is that one of Brendan's brothers? TIA
 
mattaculb said:
Has anyone else had a chance to read through the new motion that KZ filed today? A new witness came forward to her, but had attempted to report what he saw on Nov. 5th, but was basically ignored. He saw BoD with another unidentified man pushing the Rav4 down Avery Rd. in the early hours of Nov. 5th. This could be big.
Click to expand...

New Witness Comes Foward
 
So, of the 4 brothers, Brendan is in prison, imo, falsely accused. Bobby's computer was chock full of violent *advertiser censored*, and he was the state's star witness. Bryan Dassey has given a sworn affidavit that police pressured him to lie, and further gives (now corroborated) details that undermine Bobby's trial testimony. Meanwhile, Blaine Dassey is accused of siding with Bryan and doesn't get to see his Dad much bc I guess the Dad somehow actually believes that Brendan is guilty?? What a mess!!

Kathleen Zellner discusses further information about Bobby Dassey that wasn't in Making a Murderer
 
There is no question in my mind that Steven is guilty. The evidence against Steven is overwhelming and frankly all allegations of him being framed are not only supported by zero evidence but are so illogical it boggles the mind how anyone can be so far down the rabbit hole.

Let's just look at the illogic at work.

1) Steven Avery would not want to rape her and kill her but family members who either never met her or barely interacted with her would decide to follow her to rape and kill her.

2) Since Steven Avery would not do it his family must have done it and he must have been framed thus:

A) they must have burned her elsewhere and took the time to transport dozens of buckets of ash containing fragments of her bones and teeth and were so careful and laborious at the excavating they even got tiny rivets from her jean in the ash and also brought back the burned remnants of her electronics to plant and for some irrational reason have planted some remains in Janda barrel 2 as well.

B) Must have taken the Rav from a safe location elsewhere to Avery Salvage

C) Must have planted his blood and DNA in the vehicle and on her key and then have planted the key

D) Must have somehow planted her DNA on a bullet fired by his gun

It would take a great deal of evidence to establish something so wild occurring and is totally illogical to prefer to believe something so wacky and wild before believing Avery is guilty.

I have argued against Avery supporters for many years and not one was able to come up with a rational response to my challenge to them to come up with a logical reason why someone would undertake the unprecedented action of planting remains and vehicle on someone's property when such is not necessary to escape criminal liability. I posted the same challenge on this site now:

Why would an Avery family member bring evidence back to Avery property?

I really don't see any way that Avery can be innocent and don't understand how anyone else who is informed of the facts can think he is innocent.
 
scipio_usmc said:
There is no question in my mind that Steven is guilty. The evidence against Steven is overwhelming and frankly all allegations of him being framed are not only supported by zero evidence but are so illogical it boggles the mind how anyone can be so far down the rabbit hole.

Let's just look at the illogic at work.

1) Steven Avery would not want to rape her and kill her but family members who either never met her or barely interacted with her would decide to follow her to rape and kill her.

2) Since Steven Avery would not do it his family must have done it and he must have been framed thus:

A) they must have burned her elsewhere and took the time to transport dozens of buckets of ash containing fragments of her bones and teeth and were so careful and laborious at the excavating they even got tiny rivets from her jean in the ash and also brought back the burned remnants of her electronics to plant and for some irrational reason have planted some remains in Janda barrel 2 as well.

B) Must have taken the Rav from a safe location elsewhere to Avery Salvage

C) Must have planted his blood and DNA in the vehicle and on her key and then have planted the key

D) Must have somehow planted her DNA on a bullet fired by his gun

It would take a great deal of evidence to establish something so wild occurring and is totally illogical to prefer to believe something so wacky and wild before believing Avery is guilty.

I have argued against Avery supporters for many years and not one was able to come up with a rational response to my challenge to them to come up with a logical reason why someone would undertake the unprecedented action of planting remains and vehicle on someone's property when such is not necessary to escape criminal liability. I posted the same challenge on this site now:

Why would an Avery family member bring evidence back to Avery property?

I really don't see any way that Avery can be innocent and don't understand how anyone else who is informed of the facts can think he is innocent.
Click to expand...


GoBuckeyesWell-Known Member
New
I see you've undertaken a fair amount of reasoning and drawn conclusions, but I don't see many specifics on the case or the evidence detailed in the documentary, specifically season 2. Have you watched it in its entirety and read all motions pertaining to this case that Zellner has filed?
 
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