Stungun marks

[BlueCrab]

In typical Ramsey fashion John has obfuscated the stun gun video issue.

There may have been TWO video tapes A/O catalogs, obtained at different times, and the first one may have been a tape recorded in English and the second one a brochure written in Spanish.

On pg 195 of DOI hb John says he and Patsy visited a "spy shop" in Coral Gables, Florida. "As we left, the clerk gave me a videotape catalog to take home." John then wrote that the police reported to the media they had found a stun gun "instructional video" (which they did).

John goes on to say in DOI, "LATER we got a copy of the video catalog from the store in Coral Gables, and found it was recorded in Spanish!" (My emphasis on the word LATER.)

John calls it a "videotape catalog" the first time and then says LATER they got a "video catalog". Did the Ramseys receive a tape recorded in English at the store; and then later were sent a catalog mistakenly written in Spanish through the mail? If so, John has deliberately obfuscated the issue by implying the instructional tape was recorded in Spanish when actually only the brochure sent to them through the mail was written in Spanish and the tape was in English.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab

 

[Shylock]

I thought the jist of Meyer's statement was that it was possible that the marks were from a stungun. Didn't he say something like he didn't have the expertise to make a determination? Do we have the actual quote from Meyer?

According to Thomas, when Smit asked Meyer if the marks could be from a stungun, Meyer said "I suppose anything is possible". That is not exactly an endorsement by any means. Meyer would probably give Toth the same answer if Toth asked him about his bug-sting theory.

And once again, who cares what Doberson thinks! First he says you can't tell by a photograph, then he says he can. Whatever gets Mr Doberson the most publicity is what comes out of his mouth.

 

[Sabrina]

We do not know that they are burn marks, Blue Crab. The coroner who actually saw them referred to them as "abrasions" not "burns." Ask an MD (we have one at Purgatory who has done many autopsies) who has done autopsies and they will tell you "burns" are not "abrasions."

Meyer's statement says it all. Anything is possible. It's possible the marks were from a alien space monster's laser gun who kidnapped JonBenet to wisk her off to planet Mo but left her in the basement because he decided he'd rather go home alone.

It's also possible a big diamond ring caused the abrasions. Or a pot holder loom.

 

[BlueCrab]

We do not know that they are burn marks, Blue Crab. The coroner who actually saw them referred to them as "abrasions" not "burns." Ask an MD (we have one at Purgatory who has done many autopsies) who has done autopsies and they will tell you "burns" are not "abrasions."

Meyer's statement says it all. Anything is possible. It's possible the marks were from a alien space monster's laser gun who kidnapped JonBenet to wisk her off to planet Mo but left her in the basement because he decided he'd rather go home alone.

It's also possible a big diamond ring caused the abrasions. Or a pot holder loom.

Page 431, PMPT pb:

"When they had gathered sufficient information, Ainsworth, Pete Hofstrom, Trip DeMuth, and Detective Sgt. Wickman met with the coroner, John Meyer. After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun."

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab

 

[Jayelles]

Apparently there was an instructional video - but it was in Spanish. John Ramsey denied ever having played it. However, my first serger came complete with instructional video in Japanese. It was a huge joke. I was able to follow from the visual only. When I bought my new serger a few weeks ago, I asked if there wa an instructional video and if it was in English!

 

[Toth]

However, my first serger came complete with instructional video in Japanese!

Whats a serger ????

Note: abrasions are not burns.
Quite true. But often such items are mis-described.
One woman who was an ER nurse was reviewing police photos of her daughter's murder and said that 'these abrasions are burn marks'.

 

[Nehemiah]

Whats a serger?

O my gosh, Toth. You haven't heard Wood announce that a serger was used on the blanket in this crime? That is the latest breaking news.

Just kidding, here.

A serger is a sewing apparatus that tidies up the seams of a garment. Look inside your shirt right now at the seams and you will see the results of a serger.

 

[cookie]

"That darned video was a Spanish Language promotional video, roughly equivalent to junk mail, that had been tossed on the shelf and not watched. It was merely a segment of an overall security video."

Apparently John wasn't worried at all about security for his family. I don't really blame them for not having the security systems up and running when JonBenet was murdered. After all, they wouldn't have had any reason to be too scared before the murder, but they have had breakins since then, and they weren't being utilized then either. This tells me that they have never been fearful of the mean old intruder! You can bet your "sweet patootie" that nearly everyone else in this world would be extremely cautious about maintaining every possible security system one could find after having their child murdered in their own home while they were upstairs asleep.

 

[why_nutt]

One woman who was an ER nurse was reviewing police photos of her daughter's murder and said that 'these abrasions are burn marks'.

That ER nurse (if she exists, which I doubt, just as the "crime scene captured on videotape in Florida where no forensic evidence was left" did not) would not be a forensic pathologist, as Meyer is. A forensic pathologist's tool is the microscope, and through such the difference between a superficial scrape where the outermost layer of skin is removed and microscopically indents the skin, as in an abrasion, and the swelling which comes with a first-degree burn, are readily apparent. It is to Dobersen's discredit that he was so incompetent as to confuse a swollen burn mark with an indented abrasion. Most pathologists do not make such a mistake.

 

[Shylock]

Everybody is so concerned with how a couple little marks look and they overlook the fact that a stungun doesn't even fit the crime. They are extremely painful, and they don't knock a person out. Why would anyone (intruder or otherwise) use such a device on a child which would cause her to start screaming bloody murder and wake up the entire house.

The other thing is, supposedly the BPD has evidence that proves a stungun wasn't used. I think that evidence is blood spots on the inside of her shirt in the locations where the marks on her back were. Stunguns don't make a person bleed--abrasions do.

 

[BlueCrab]

We do not know that they are burn marks, Blue Crab. The coroner who actually saw them referred to them as "abrasions" not "burns." Ask an MD (we have one at Purgatory who has done many autopsies) who has done autopsies and they will tell you "burns" are not "abrasions."

A Taser brand stun gun will normally begin to burn and leave a signature mark if held for over three seconds against the skin. The longer it's held against the skin the more severe is the electrical burn. When the burn injury dries it darkens and crusts over -- closely resembling an abrasion.

It's not uncommon for a burn that has crusted over to be mis-identified as an abrasion, and this is what John Meyer obviously did.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab

 

[why_nutt]

Everybody is so concerned with how a couple little marks look and they overlook the fact that a stungun doesn't even fit the crime. They are extremely painful, and they don't knock a person out. Why would anyone (intruder or otherwise) use such a device on a child which would cause her to start screaming bloody murder and wake up the entire house.

The other thing is, supposedly the BPD has evidence that proves a stungun wasn't used. I think that evidence is blood spots on the inside of her shirt in the locations where the marks on her back were. Stunguns don't make a person bleed--abrasions do.

Those are very interesting and credible observations. You are completely correct on the stun gun. The pigs tested were anesthesized for a reason, and that reason defeats the credibility of the tests as they could have meaningfully applied to the Ramsey case. Surprise, surprise, the pigs were not allowed to remain conscious because, if they had been stunned without drugs, they would have screamed and struggled, just as JonBenet would have done, just as any number of anecdotal examples on videotape have shown. A stun gun's purpose is to induce a body-wide set of cramps. Imagine your calf cramped with a charlie horse; imagine your whole body feeling that way. This is what stun guns do. The lame excuse, "She could have been pushed into the bed and her struggle confined that way" is pitiful; if it were so easy to restrain a child, why are child restraints so necessary in emergency rooms? A weak nurse ought to be able to push a six-year-old against the hospital bed, according to certain Ramsey defenders. And yet, this is not true.

Let us be clear on one thing. Stun guns cause intense pain. Very intense pain. If a stun gun was applied to JonBenet, then she was in intense, cramping muscle pain for the time it was being applied, and as a girl child, she had no need, desire or ability to grit her teeth and bear it in silence. If any Ramsey defender can prove otherwise, feel free, but none will be able to.

Your thoughts about blood spots other than what are in JonBenet's underwear is also relevant. According to the CBI DNA summary, bloodstains were found not just on the underwear, but also on the nightgown and the blanket, and yes, her shirt. Superficial abrasions can and do leak a small amount of blood. Stun gun wounds do not. I call upon Ramsey defenders to explain how blood could be on JonBenet's shirt and nightgown and blanket, but missing from the long johns which touched her bloody underwear.

 

[why_nutt]

A Taser brand stun gun will normally begin to burn and leave a signature mark if held for over three seconds against the skin. The longer it's held against the skin the more severe is the electrical burn. When the burn injury dries it darkens and crusts over -- closely resembling an abrasion.

It's not uncommon for a burn that has crusted over to be mis-identified as an abrasion, and this is what John Meyer obviously did.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab

I challenge your assertion that "It's not uncommon" for burns to be identified as abrasions. Prove it. The concept defies common sense.

It is only common for a burn to be "crusted over" or form a scab when it is old enough to have first swollen, then blistered, then broken open, then bled, and then formed a scab. A simple abrasion will leak blood immediately. If someone wants to propose that the marks on JonBenet were, indeed, "crusted over," then Meyer is incompetent to a vast degree in not being able to recognize a scabbed burn mark when he saw one.

 

[Imon128]

Those are very interesting and credible observations. You are completely correct on the stun gun. The pigs tested were anesthesized for a reason, and that reason defeats the credibility of the tests as they could have meaningfully applied to the Ramsey case. Surprise, surprise, the pigs were not allowed to remain conscious because, if they had been stunned without drugs, they would have screamed and struggled, just as JonBenet would have done, just as any number of anecdotal examples on videotape have shown. A stun gun's purpose is to induce a body-wide set of cramps. Imagine your calf cramped with a charlie horse; imagine your whole body feeling that way. This is what stun guns do. The lame excuse, "She could have been pushed into the bed and her struggle confined that way" is pitiful; if it were so easy to restrain a child, why are child restraints so necessary in emergency rooms? A weak nurse ought to be able to push a six-year-old against the hospital bed, according to certain Ramsey defenders. And yet, this is not true.

Let us be clear on one thing. Stun guns cause intense pain. Very intense pain. If a stun gun was applied to JonBenet, then she was in intense, cramping muscle pain for the time it was being applied, and as a girl child, she had no need, desire or ability to grit her teeth and bear it in silence. If any Ramsey defender can prove otherwise, feel free, but none will be able to.

Your thoughts about blood spots other than what are in JonBenet's underwear is also relevant. According to the CBI DNA summary, bloodstains were found not just on the underwear, but also on the nightgown and the blanket, and yes, her shirt. Superficial abrasions can and do leak a small amount of blood. Stun gun wounds do not. I call upon Ramsey defenders to explain how blood could be on JonBenet's shirt and nightgown and blanket, but missing from the long johns which touched her bloody underwear.

I've never heard this before...that is, the blood stains also on the blanket (I think I've read that there might have been washed ones), shirt, and nightgown. Very interesting!! Do you know how large the stains were on those locations? Thanks, why_nutt, for another great post.

 

[Imon128]

Did the bloodstains on the shirt/nightgown line up with the marks on JB's body?

 

[Sabrina]

The stun gun could NEVER be proved in a court of law.

In the court of public opinion, the Ramsey Spin Team has convinced some unsuspecting members of the public that a stun gun was used. It is NOT a fact, is NOT proved, can NEVER be proved unless exhumation is done, and it could be too late.

To state a stun gun was used as a fact is a pure and simple lie. It's a theory, an opinion, and a myth but NOT a fact.

Just like the 911 call, the DNA, the ransom note, the Ramsey "cooperation" etc. -- the RST presents theories or half-truths as facts -- and law enforcement cannot, rightly so, dispute it as the case is still open.

 

[BlueCrab]

why_nut,

Can you please provide a source for the "CBI DNA summary" stating that bloodstains were also found on JonBenet's nightgown, blanket, and shirt. Thanks.

With respect to the longjohns not having any blood stains on it, JonBenet would not have been wearing the longjohns during the sexual assault. The blood on the crotch of the panties seeped from the vagina after she was cleaned up and re-dressed in the clean over-sized size 12 panties and the longjohns put back on her after death.

However, the blood found on JonBenet and her clothing would have nothing to do with stun gun injuries in the first place. You're correct -- stun gun injuries do not bleed, but the burns they sometimes leave behind can dry up and crust over, thus resembling abrasions.

It appears that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back, and perhaps even the mysterious 1 1/2 by 3/4 inch triangular-shaped "abrasion" on the front-left part of her neck, are indeed from a stun gun. The only forensic pathologist who physically studied the marks on the body, John Meyer, and a lot of other pathologists experienced in stun gun injuries and who studied the JonBenet autopsy photos, agree the marks on JonBenet are consistent with stun gun injuries.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab

 

[Maxi]

BlueCrab, are you sure they are burns? My recollection was that the redness was caused by the disruption of blood vessels under the skin rather than on the surface, as in a burn or abrasion.

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab, are you sure they are burns? My recollection was that the redness was caused by the disruption of blood vessels under the skin rather than on the surface, as in a burn or abrasion.

Maxi, I'll try to find a reference for the burns that can be caused by long exposures to a stun gun. For now we'll call them signature marks.

In the meantime, please consider the fact that the prongs of a stung can simultaneously cause abrasions as well as leave their electrical signature marks on the skin. If jammed hard against the skin and twisted the twin steel prongs would likely scrape away some skin and/or bruise the skin. These injuries would produce an abrasion-like appearance as they dried and crusted over -- thus partially disguising the electrical signature marks.

In fact, I've sometimes wondered if the strange triangular-shaped abrasion measuring about 1 1/2 inch by 3/4 inch on JonBenet's lower front neck is the result of such a physical stun gun hit. The stun gun's prongs are 1 3/8 inches apart and would fit the triangular abrasion and spreading bruise mark caused by the powerful physical hit.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab

 

[BlueCrab]

Maxi, In a lengthy report published by Air Taser, the medical information of the report states in Item #5 entitled "SKIN AND FLESH BURNS":

"The nine-volt battery of a Taser does not produce enough power to cause any more than perhaps slight surface burns."

Just my opinion.