Suspect: Daniel Heinrich - #3

[kaen]

I feel one area were LE can do a better job regarding these types of cases is just a simple follow up with people providing relevant details in the case .

I was just told the other day that authorities believe that there where no other victims after jacob , i explained that not everything was thoughly reviewed yet, and ill be damed if im going to take Danny Heinrich's word for it .
There could very easily be another victim associated to all of this... Shame is a feeling that makes you shut sown, hold your head down , not talk about it, deny any association with it, and even repress it.
I've learned first hand that despite this being a high profile case , there are those who don't care to talk about it. And Why would they if statute of limitations existed, there's no reason ... right?

I agree on the follow-up issue in reference to LE. LE has two main issues in relation to follow-up: time/money and training, especially sexual assault training. Sexual assault training takes more than a couple of professional development workshops or classes. We have adult/adult crimes, child/child crimes, adult/ male child crimes, and adult/female child crimes. The understanding that sexual assault is less sexual and more power and violence would do a lot reduce some of the discomfort and stigma that LE and survivors have around these kinds of crimes. Hopefully, training would lead to a greater investigation and prosecution rate. With the rise of pedophilia and child *advertiser censored*, we just have to demand that resources be directed in this area.

I have often thought that there are other victims of this monster. I wonder about other children he had physical contact with as well as an internet connection where he was able to buy or procure abuse that he could access via computer. I have struggled with the idea that he went cold turkey after he killed Jacob. On one hand, he might have been scared enough to figure out other ways to gratify his urges. I think he revisited sites (at the very least, Jacob's site) in order to re-look at items and got satisfied via his trophies from the assaults. Given tech boom of the 1990s and the rise of the dark web, I would imagine that the monster availed himself of all kinds of material, both passively attained and actively attained.

In Asia, there is a booming business of child *advertiser censored* that is streamed live with pedophiles "buying" actions done to and done between children. The sex tourism trade has gathered attention so the tactics have become more sophisticated and, by consequence, more disgusting. See these articles: http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/16/5...ng-that-live-streamed-child-abuse-philippines http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-in-tech-industry-*advertiser censored*-fight

I have met many adults (more female than male but the male numbers are growing) who first tell their story of abuse 20-25 years after the assault/s. They come forward because their lives are not complete and healthy due to the circumstances and the shame associated with their abuse. They experience too many triggers and recognize that they need help developing mechanisms to deal.

We need to stop the silence, embrace advocacy for law changes (statute of limitations, sentences, providing for testimony in safer spaces), and make sure people see pedophiles not just sexual deviants but as controlling/power over/ abusive monsters who use the taboo of sexual contact as a way to maintain compliancy, silence, and access to children.

 

[human]

I would like to add the issues of the Constitution and criminals. What we would like to see done re suspects is not always legal.

 

[kaen]

I would like to add the issues of the Constitution and criminals. What we would like to see done re suspects is not always legal.

I think that we don't have many laws and sentences/incarceration scenarios that speak to the brave new world of crimes that are and can be committed. I am all in favor of registries and community information as well as long sentences for criminals involved in child abuse. I have not seen the statistics of pedophile crimes that end in the data of a child or end in the child surviving, pre and post registries and heavier sentences for abusers. I do wonder if there is not a "leave no witness" mentality happening in an effort to continue to commit crimes.

 

[human]

I think that we don't have many laws and sentences/incarceration scenarios that speak to the brave new world of crimes that are and can be committed. I am all in favor of registries and community information as well as long sentences for criminals involved in child abuse. I have not seen the statistics of pedophile crimes that end in the data of a child or end in the child surviving, pre and post registries and heavier sentences for abusers. I do wonder if there is not a "leave no witness" mentality happening in an effort to continue to commit crimes.

I do not have a link to where Patty W. Talked about the problem of sentencing for child molesters. It was felt that they did not want first sentences too long. It was felt if they were too long the perv would kill the child. Seems like DH does not fit into that mold.

You may be aware that the "patients" at Moose Lake State Hospital, which serves the civilly committed sex offenders, sued. Using taxpayer money, they sued and won. They said it was unconstitutional as no one had ever been deemed fixed and released. A judge said MN had to fix it or it would be closed down.

I feel that someone who rapes a four year old , for instance, should be locked up forever, plus one day.

It is felt that most molesters do not kill because they like to kill. They kill to cover up the evidence.

Once again, DH is changing my thinking on that. I don't think he did it just to cover his crime.

These molestrs have sentenced their targets to a life sentence. Too bad that they of course had horrifying childhoods. They can stay in a nice clean facility provided by the taxpayers instead of living under a bridge or some horrible rental. For me, that is far more than DH deserves. The death penalty is not swift and expensive.

I would like to see him living in some vermin invested hole as it appears that he did not have one sleepless night after his crimes. I guess that would not be the American way.

 

[tgemelke]

I find Heinrich perplexing on so many levels. It takes a special kind of sociopath to kidnap and murder a child, then go on living among society for 26 years as if nothing happened and presumably never telling anyone about it. I remember John Walsh saying pedophiles are the hardest criminals to catch because they usually act alone and don't speak with anyone about their crimes.

It's impossible to even try to understand what goes on in the mind of that sick madman, but I do think it's possible that he stopped after Jacob. The fact that investigators did question him in 1989-1990 about Jacob's disappearance might have put the fear of God into him. Furthermore, he might have seen the internet, which wasn't around during the late 1980s, as a safer way to satisfy his urges, as opposed to abducting and physically molesting a child.

While it's not normal for pedophiles to flip the switch and stop, there's nothing normal about Danny Heinrich.

 

[livstabler]

I do not have a link to where Patty W. Talked about the problem of sentencing for child molesters. It was felt that they did not want first sentences too long. It was felt if they were too long the perv would kill the child. Seems like DH does not fit into that mold.

https://sexoffenderissues.blogspot.com/2009/04/interview-with-patty-wetterling-june-27.html

"Wetterling: First of all, I don't believe in the death penalty. But if you made it possible to use the death penalty for a child rape situation, the perpetrator might as well kill the child because there's the same consequence, and if offenders are cognizant of those kinds of consequences, then they have no motivation to keep the child alive."

 

[Listen]

I would not be surprised to find that there are additional victims, but I would be surprised if there were more after Jacob. IF he is being truthful in his description of the abduction/assault/murder then he never intended to kill Jacob. Letting him go would certainly fit in with his pattern of known/suspected assaults. I was not in the courtroom listening, but from what has been reported it sounds like he was very matter of fact throughout most of his testimony, yet the description of the actual murder was more difficult for him to articulate (perhaps someone here can confirm or deny that). Jacob was his youngest known victim, and the fact that he crossed a new threshold in murdering him may have affected him in a profound way. This alone may not have been enough to suppress his urge to offend again, but when compounded by the intense attention that the Wetterling case received, and him being questioned multiple times and then arrested, it may have culminated in enough of a fear factor to prevent further assaults. We know that he is a paranoid man to begin with, and I'd bet he felt he was always being watched, regardless of how much he was actually monitored. It's true that didn't stop him from following paper boys around shortly thereafter, or filming local adolescents for many years following his arrest, but he may have been testing LE to see what he could get away with. As has been described by LE since, all of that behavior was not against the law. I just have a strong feeling that he was so freaked out post-Jacob that it's unlikely that he felt he could go to the extent of actually abducting another youth, whether he had the desire to or not.

 

[human]

What is the explanation for him following newspaper boys ? This was after Jacob. If he was freaked out, he did not show it.

His talking about Jacob in court may have been difficult cuz he knew he would never see the red jacket again and who knows what else.

 

[Listen]

Only he knows for sure. I can only go based on what we know to be true. What is true is that before Jacob there were a number of assualts, which showed a pattern of increasing intensity and in the boldness/carelessness of the abductor. We don't currently have evidence of that continuing after Jacob was murdered. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but until it does I think we have to assess things based on what we know. We also know that none of the other known victims were murdered. While I think/hope everyone here would describe DH as a monster, that doesn't mean that he had no distinction between sexual assault and murder. Maybe it didn't affect him and he enjoyed that aspect as well. Again, only he really knows for sure. As I stated above regarding the paper boys, he may have been testing the waters to see what he could still get away with, and that in and of itself may have supplemented his collection and helped satisfy his perverse addiction.

As for seeing Jacob's jacket again, are you saying that he has been back there many times to dug it up? I'm under the impression that after he relocated the remains onto the Voss Farms property the following year, and reburied them, that is where/how they stayed until this month. Is there any evidence to suggest otherwise?

 

[kaen]

What is the explanation for him following newspaper boys ?

RSBM. I think he liked the feeling of stalking--going out and looking, putting on his scoping clothing, and, after Jacob, taking pictures and getting his jollies by fantasizing about what he could do.

 

[human]

Only he knows for sure. I can only go based on what we know to be true. What is true is that before Jacob there were a number of assualts, which showed a pattern of increasing intensity and in the boldness/carelessness of the abductor. We don't currently have evidence of that continuing after Jacob was murdered. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but until it does I think we have to assess things based on what we know. We also know that none of the other known victims were murdered. While I think/hope everyone here would describe DH as a monster, that doesn't mean that he had no distinction between sexual assault and murder. Maybe it didn't affect him and he enjoyed that aspect as well. Again, only he really knows for sure. As I stated above regarding the paper boys, he may have been testing the waters to see what he could still get away with, and that in and of itself may have supplemented his collection and helped satisfy his perverse addiction.

As for seeing Jacob's jacket again, are you saying that he has been back there many times to dug it up? I'm under the impression that after he relocated the remains onto the Voss Farms property the following year, and reburied them, that is where/how they stayed until this month. Is there any evidence to suggest otherwise?

Wasn't the jacket visible?

 

[kaen]

As for seeing Jacob's jacket again, are you saying that he has been back there many times to dug it up? I'm under the impression that after he relocated the remains onto the Voss Farms property the following year, and reburied them, that is where/how they stayed until this month. Is there any evidence to suggest otherwise?

RSBM. I agree that only he knows for sure. But, we do know that he went back the one time where he discovered the remains uncovered. I speculate that he did visit the burial area on a regular basis. Why would he bury the jacket over the bones closes to the surface? I don't know but it seems to me that he hadn't taken any trophies/momentos from Jacob so the occasional nighttime cruise of the area held something for him. He didn't bury Jacob's shoes as a mistake he had said. He offered that he tossed them in a ravine. I believe the monster had taken other moments from other crimes, so why toss the shoes? He realized on the way home that he couldn't hold on to them-- this crime would be investigated and he had been investigated for these kinds of things before and it was too risky. He had many books of photos, clothing, etc when he was raided. He kept stuff. In fact, in the earlier visits by LE he argued to keep some of the pictures he had as they weren't illegal. I think he visited those items and remains. I think he might have seen them exposed or dug them up to see them on occasion. NO proof just looking at his patterns--he cruised more than he victimized, he kept things to re-look at and spend time with them.

 

[human]

I don't have any idea of how it works, but I hope FBI profilers can meet with him and figure some things out.

He does not seem to fit in some ways. He has the little education, but he stayed at one job for ten years. That is a long time considerng it was at a time when there was high unemployment and people with more pleasant personalties were looking for jobs.

The stopping, perhaps, is another spin

 

[Listen]

Wasn't the jacket visible?

The jacket (and more of the remains) were visible when he went back the following year, which is why he moved them to the second site and buried them. After that the jacket, from all accounts, was buried until being exhumed this month. I believe it's likely he did go back when he could, but to ensure that nothing at the site had been disturbed. Even if he was upset/affected at having taken a life, it was clearly not as high as a priority as ensuring that he did not get caught.

I just think at this point everything points to him not having planned to kill Jacob and that after he went through with that, and for whatever reason, his pattern was broken. The reasoning behind why is something only he can answer, and the degree to which he has been truthful (and will be in any future questioning) is something that each person will have to weigh for themselves. Jacob was clearly an anomaly for him though, being both his youngest known victim, and the only one that wasn't released. I will say that the fact that he was executed because of DH panicking (if that IS what happened) is in some ways even more heartbreaking. Why he wasn't let go after is something that the Wetterlings have wanted to know since they first learned of the Paynseville cases, and especially after putting those together with JS's case. I do not believe we have had sufficient answers yet on that front. Perhaps they have more info from the hours long confession conducted prior to the hearing by LE, and if that is the case I hope there is something that may have given the family a higher degree of understanding. We can only go on the brief description he gave in court though.

 

[tgemelke]

The jacket (and more of the remains) were visible when he went back the following year, which is why he moved them to the second site and buried them. After that the jacket, from all accounts, was buried until being exhumed this month. I believe it's likely he did go back when he could, but to ensure that nothing at the site had been disturbed. Even if he was upset/affected at having taken a life, it was clearly not as high as a priority as ensuring that he did not get caught.

I just think at this point everything points to him not having planned to kill Jacob and that after he went through with that, and for whatever reason, his pattern was broken. The reasoning behind why is something only he can answer, and the degree to which he has been truthful (and will be in any future questioning) is something that each person will have to weigh for themselves. Jacob was clearly an anomaly for him though, being both his youngest known victim, and the only one that wasn't released. I will say that the fact that he was executed because of DH panicking (if that IS what happened) is in some ways even more heartbreaking. Why he wasn't let go after is something that the Wetterlings have wanted to know since they first learned of the Paynseville cases, and especially after putting those together with JS's case. I do not believe we have had sufficient answers yet on that front. Perhaps they have more info from the hours long confession conducted prior to the hearing by LE, and if that is the case I hope there is something that may have given the family a higher degree of understanding. We can only go on the brief description he gave in court though.

I guess I tend to believe Heinrich when he says he killed Jacob because he panicked. Like you said, Jacob was an anomaly and the circumstances were somewhat different from Jared and the Paynesville cases. With Jared, he upped the ante by forcing him into a vehicle, but there were no eyewitnesses. With the Paynesville cases, I think there were eyewitnesses, but he did not force the children into vehicles.

With Jacob, he significantly upped the ante...he forcibly abducted a child into a vehicle AND did so in front of eyewitnesses. Because there were eyewitnesses, law enforcement responded very quickly in Jacob's case. This was by far Heinrich's most serious and brazen attempt to abuse a child, and I think the combination of hearing the scanner traffic about the abduction and seeing the patrol car at the scene of the assault caused him to panic. It doesn't make him any less evil, but I personally don't think he set out to kill Jacob from the get-go.

 

[human]

I guess I tend to believe Heinrich when he says he killed Jacob because he panicked. Like you said, Jacob was an anomaly and the circumstances were somewhat different from Jared and the Paynesville cases. With Jared, he upped the ante by forcing him into a vehicle, but there were no eyewitnesses. With the Paynesville cases, I think there were eyewitnesses, but he did not force the children into vehicles.

With Jacob, he significantly upped the ante...he forcibly abducted a child into a vehicle AND did so in front of eyewitnesses. Because there were eyewitnesses, law enforcement responded very quickly in Jacob's case. This was by far Heinrich's most serious and brazen attempt to abuse a child, and I think the combination of hearing the scanner traffic about the abduction and seeing the patrol car at the scene of the assault caused him to panic. It doesn't make him any less evil, but I personally don't think he set out to kill Jacob from the get-go.

I used to think that until I heard he had a gun with bullets. He did not need a loaded gun to scare a child.

 

[ELOCsoul]

I don't have any idea of how it works, but I hope FBI profilers can meet with him and figure some things out.

He does not seem to fit in some ways. He has the little education, but he stayed at one job for ten years. That is a long time considerng it was at a time when there was high unemployment and people with more pleasant personalties were looking for jobs.

The stopping, perhaps, is another spin

The FBI had him profiled pretty darned well I November 1989. Absolutely nothing about Danny Heinrich is surprising. The escalation to murder likely shocked him to lower his ambitions. I read Mind Hunter by John Douglas, the FBI profiler in Jacob's case. After reading that book, and then after Heinrich was arrested...it all made perfect sense.

 

[human]

How about the keeping job for years ?

 

[Kojak81]

Does anyone have any theories regarding the arson of the Arlene Jude home on November 12, 1989? I'm having a hard time making any sense of it and if there was any reason to burn the house down. From Kenneth MacDonald's search warrant on 8/31 of this year, there are details from an interview with James Wurm (who is the brother of Arlene Jude) on 2/5/90 about how Danny and his younger brother Tommy would go to this house. While Tommy would play football with James' sons, Danny wouldn't. There's no details from James about what Danny was doing there, but ultimately there were school portrait-type photos of his sons found in Danny's possession. Danny initially stated the pictures were from when he was at the treatment facility, but unless James' sons were also at the treatment facility it means Danny either received them from his sons or he simply stole them. Those pictures according to Danny were eventually burned. This house had been burglarized before and it was again burglarized on the night of the fire. We know that Danny was also involved in a fire in a cabin in I believe Lake Koronis when he was younger and he went through a phase of burglaries in the mid 80s in Paynesville.

I know a theory at the time when the news story came out about the possible link between the arson and Heinrich was that Jacob's remains were in the house and Heinrich set the fire. We know that didn't end up being the case, but I'm left with trying to understand the reasoning behind the arson at all. I know some arsonists simply start fires because it excites them, but was the Jude home destroyed for some other reason? Did Heinrich threaten Arlene or her nephews? Something along the lines of "if you tell anyone what I did I will burn this house to the ground!"? This was only three weeks after Jacob's abduction.

 

[ELOCsoul]

Does anyone have any theories regarding the arson of the Arlene Jude home on November 12, 1989? I'm having a hard time making any sense of it and if there was any reason to burn the house down. From Kenneth MacDonald's search warrant on 8/31 of this year, there are details from an interview with James Wurm (who is the brother of Arlene Jude) on 2/5/90 about how Danny and his younger brother Tommy would go to this house. While Tommy would play football with James' sons, Danny wouldn't. There's no details from James about what Danny was doing there, but ultimately there were school portrait-type photos of his sons found in Danny's possession. Danny initially stated the pictures were from when he was at the treatment facility, but unless James' sons were also at the treatment facility it means Danny either received them from his sons or he simply stole them. Those pictures according to Danny were eventually burned. This house had been burglarized before and it was again burglarized on the night of the fire. We know that Danny was also involved in a fire in a cabin in I believe Lake Koronis when he was younger and he went through a phase of burglaries in the mid 80s in Paynesville.

I know a theory at the time when the news story came out about the possible link between the arson and Heinrich was that Jacob's remains were in the house and Heinrich set the fire. We know that didn't end up being the case, but I'm left with trying to understand the reasoning behind the arson at all. I know some arsonists simply start fires because it excites them, but was the Jude home destroyed for some other reason? Did Heinrich threaten Arlene or her nephews? Something along the lines of "if you tell anyone what I did I will burn this house to the ground!"? This was only three weeks after Jacob's abduction.

It's one of the classic behaviors of a serial violent offender. The first time Liz Colllin called me the first time, the first question she asked me was 'What did you think about the arson story WCCO did last night?' I said it was great, but not for the reasons that everyone thinks. That surprised her, until I told her about the homicidal triad and what I had learned from reading about FBI profiling. She listened, and then came up with this very original and important story;

https://youtu.be/icajE7_ie5k

Incidentally, there was another arson fire practically next door, just days before Jacob's kidnapping. It all fits, just not for the reasons many think...