Terrible tally: 500 children dead from gunshots every year ..

[SapphireSteel]

Its called GANG activity. Get rid of gangs and these numbers will drop dramatically.

The only people who get themselves murdered here (mostly) are gang related.

Our government has actually outlawed gangs.

They are not allowed to wear patches or congregate in public, literally.

They still exist because gangs have existed since the beginning of time.

You can either try to control all the population (talk about ending your freedom ) or you can control the weapons.

If people/gubmints stopped thinking of guns as a defence against the zombies and started thinking of them as cars, eg a potentially dangerous piece of equipment which needs specialised training and licencing, then the "gun problem" would be solved.:scared:

 

[Sonya610]

You can either try to control all the population (talk about ending your freedom ) or you can control the weapons.

If they could control the criminal population then decent folks wouldn't NEED weapons! And as far as "controlling" weapons does that include bats, knives, etc....? Or just firearms?

Rawanda saw 800,000 people massacred primarily with machetes. Criminals do NOT need guns to terrorize others especially those of us that are physically weaker than they are.

 

[Tulessa]

If they could control the criminal population then decent folks wouldn't NEED weapons! And as far as "controlling" weapons does that include bats, knives, etc....? Or just firearms?

Rawanda saw 800,000 people massacred primarily with machetes. Criminals do NOT need guns to terrorize others especially those of us that are physically weaker than they are.

Agree. I'm 5'0 and 110 pounds. I'm not giving up my gun. Our house was broken into about 2 months ago while we were in the bed. Thankfully all they wanted was food. Took it and left before we could get dressed. Our 100 lb Shepherd scared them off. He sleeps in our bedroom.

 

[TrackerSam]

The only people who get themselves murdered here (mostly) are gang related.

Our government has actually outlawed gangs.

They are not allowed to wear patches or congregate in public, literally.

They still exist because gangs have existed since the beginning of time.

You can either try to control all the population (talk about ending your freedom ) or you can control the weapons.

If people/gubmints stopped thinking of guns as a defence against the zombies and started thinking of them as cars, eg a potentially dangerous piece of equipment which needs specialised training and licencing, then the "gun problem" would be solved.:scared:

Murder has also been outlawed as has dugs in our prisons. Odd how those laws don't work. Canada has more guns, they need them to protect themselves against bears and such. We'd have to evacuate Alaska and most northern states if we didn't have guns for the same reason.

Switzerland does not have a standing army, instead opting for a people's militia for its national defense. The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 30 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training. The personal weapons of the militia are kept at home as part of the military obligations; Switzerland thus has one of the highest militia gun ownership rates in the world.[1] In recent times a minority of political opposition has expressed a desire for tighter gun regulations.[2] A referendum in February 2011 rejected stricter gun control.

One could argue that their low crime rate is due to their high weapon per capita mandatory weapons law.

 

[SapphireSteel]

There's a bunch of Aussie posters on here. Ask them how many personally know someone who's been shot with intent or for any other reason. I will almost guarantee, no one does.

Yet almost every American has at least one story.

Unfortunately until someone gets a grip of the arms race your kids are going to keep dying needlessly.

More guns are not the answer.

I repeat - gun laws do not mean you can't have guns. It just means that Joe Blow on the corner can't skip into Walmart and buy 3. It doesn't curb anyone's rights whatsoever.

What about your kids right to grow up in a non violent society, or at least a society that actively attempts to become non violent?

Have you forgotten what it was like to walk to school without being afraid?

 

[TrackerSam]

I'm all for gun control. You should be able to hit what you're aiming at. And what happens od doesn't in Australia or anywhere else in the world matters not a whit.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Murder has also been outlawed as has dugs in our prisons. Odd how those laws don't work. Canada has more guns, they need them to protect themselves against bears and such. We'd have to evacuate Alaska and most northern states if we didn't have guns for the same reason.

Switzerland does not have a standing army, instead opting for a people's militia for its national defense. The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 30 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training. The personal weapons of the militia are kept at home as part of the military obligations; Switzerland thus has one of the highest militia gun ownership rates in the world.[1] In recent times a minority of political opposition has expressed a desire for tighter gun regulations.[2] A referendum in February 2011 rejected stricter gun control.

One could argue that their low crime rate is due to their high weapon per capita mandatory weapons law.

The Swiss are entirely different, they don't even have an army. Their men are obliged to do National Service and are issued with weapons which they are supposed to keep in the home.

Even the Swiss are tightening the laws. Here's how it goes over there -

• 
  How to buy a gun in Switzerland
• Heavy machine guns and automatic weapons are banned, as are silencers
• In most cases the buyer needs a weapon acquisition permit, issued by the cantonal police
• This will be refused if the applicant has a criminal record, an addiction or a psychiatric problem
• A special permit is needed to carry a gun in public - and is usually issued only to people who work in security, once they have passed theoretical and practical exams
• Twenty-six thousand guns were sold legally in Switzerland in 2012 to sportsmen, hunters and collectors

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21379912

Quite different. They have high gun ownership yes, but they also have reasonably tight ownership laws.

That's all anyone is suggesting - tightening laws.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I'm all for gun control. You should be able to hit what you're aiming at. And what happens od doesn't in Australia or anywhere else in the world matters not a whit.

Gun ownership is extremely high in rural areas because farmers need guns.

It's not about taking away the rights of those who need them.

Collecting and target shooting are considered a "need" here, for those who can prove hobby status, in fact IIRC a supporting letter from your Gun Club is mandatory to get a gun for this reason, but it is still a valid and legal pastime, as is hunting.

It's not about stopping people owning guns.

Think of them as a car - both deadly in the wrong hands, both need specialised training to use properly, both require you to pass a bit of testing to make sure you're not blind or otherwise disabled.

This is done for the good of all. Imagine the roads if folks could drive without a licence.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Why does a civilian need a military style weapon ever? What is up with that? My grandfather shot an intruder once, with birdshot! Did the trick .. not even a .22.

 

[Sonya610]

My grandfather shot an intruder once, with birdshot! Did the trick .. not even a .22.

Your grandfather could have set off firecrackers and that might have made the burglar run away too.

Bird shot is for small birds NOT for self defense, there is a reason the police do NOT use bird shot in their shotguns! Course maybe your grandfather knows more about ammo than the police, eh?

 

[Tulessa]

Your grandfather could have set off firecrackers and that might have made the burglar run away too.

Bird shot is for small birds NOT for self defense, there is a reason the police do NOT use bird shot in their shotguns! Course maybe your grandfather knows more about ammo than the police, eh?

With all the moonshining my area did, I would bet on that.

 

[Sonya610]

Even the Swiss are tightening the laws. Here's how it goes over there -

• 
  How to buy a gun in Switzerland
  
• Heavy machine guns and automatic weapons are banned, as are silencers Automatic weapons are not sold to the general populace in the US either
  
  
• In most cases the buyer needs a weapon acquisition permit, issued by the cantonal police In the U.S. applicants need to pass a federal background check
  
  
• This will be refused if the applicant has a criminal record, an addiction or a psychiatric problem Same here, violent crimes, felonies or a psychiatric problem will bar a person from purchasing LEGALLY
  
  
• A special permit is needed to carry a gun in public - and is usually issued only to people who work in security, once they have passed theoretical and practical exams Once again, carrying in public requires a CCW permit in most all states and that permit must be issued by the local authorities AFTER a federal background check

• 
  
  
  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21379912
  
  Quite different. They have high gun ownership yes, but they also have reasonably tight ownership laws.
  
  Quite different??? How so?? Basically their laws are copying the U.S. laws no doubt because of the US media hype.
  

• 
  
  Oh and Switzerland has a VERY low crime rate (they always had even before their gun legislation) so it is no big surprise they aren't shooting each other like lunatics or robbing each other blind. They don't have a gang problem, they don't have "projects", they don't raise generation after generation on welfare. They are high moral standards and they abide by them.
  
  Switzerland also recently considered legislation that said if an immigrant's child becomes a criminal they would throw the WHOLE FRICKING FAMILY out of the country. Yup, different ideals completely those Swiss. Should the U.S. copy that legislation too? I think so!

 

[Tulessa]

Oh and Switzerland has a VERY low crime rate (they always had even before their gun legislation) so it is no big surprise they aren't shooting each other like lunatics or robbing each other blind. They don't have a gang problem, they don't have "projects", they don't raise generation after generation on welfare. They are high moral standards and they abide by them.

Switzerland also recently considered legislation that said if an immigrant's child becomes a criminal they would throw the WHOLE FRICKING FAMILY out of the country. Yup, different ideals completely those Swiss. Should the U.S. copy that legislation too? I think so!

Are you in Ga. or Switzerland? :truce:

 

[Gardenlady]

People like to think America is exceptional in all sorts of ways. Bigger, tougher, better than other countries. But apparently also we are such unique special snowflakes that even our "societal problems" are bigger and different than the rest of the world's! That's why everyone and their crazy uncle has to have a gun! Even the kids! It's different here, rest of the world, you just wouldn't understand!

(I hope the sarcasm comes through okay )

 

[Sonya610]

Are you in Ga. or Switzerland? :truce:

Half my family is Swiss and I have been to Switzerland a few times, it is a place where stores leave displays with wine and food on the street with a sign that says "closed for lunch" and people don't steal them blind.

Different world and hopefully the Swiss will prevent it from becoming another U.S.

 

[Trident]

People like to think America is exceptional in all sorts of ways. Bigger, tougher, better than other countries. But apparently also we are such unique special snowflakes that even our "societal problems" are bigger and different than the rest of the world's! That's why everyone and their crazy uncle has to have a gun! Even the kids! It's different here, rest of the world, you just wouldn't understand!

(I hope the sarcasm comes through okay )

Ever since I saw a , in an expensive suit & sunglasses designed to impress, being ushered through the crowd in Venice by a bevy of lesser thugs, I kinda knew America wasn't the only place that had guns and violence - maybe we just fight back.

The thing is, America is bigger, both population and land wise. Rest assured, should many of these smaller countries find themselves trying to govern the mass we have, things would be worse. So, yes, I do find that we "special snowflakes" have larger problems, and I'm still PROUD to be an AMERICAN snowflake, warts and all.

My opinion only

 

[Gardenlady]

Ever since I saw a , in an expensive suit & sunglasses designed to impress, being ushered through the crowd in Venice by a bevy of lesser thugs, I kinda knew America wasn't the only place that had guns and violence - maybe we just fight back.

The thing is, America is bigger, both population and land wise. Rest assured, should many of these smaller countries find themselves trying to govern the mass we have, things would be worse. So, yes, I do find that we "special snowflakes" have larger problems, and I'm still PROUD to be an AMERICAN snowflake, warts and all.

My opinion only

We are fighting violence with violence, and unlike steps other western nations have taken, our "fighting back" isn't working. In fact, it's resulting in more death. At what point do we look at how we are "fighting back" and say "you know what, this isn't working". "Fighting back" is not something to be proud of when all it is is mindless violence or accidents that cause the death of innocents.

We are not special snowflakes here. We have the same violence that other societies have. Unlike other societies, we lack introspection. We refuse to see ourselves as comparable to others, and so politicians and guns rights advocates pretend that we are somehow different, and that steps that other societies have taken wont work here. And the American public just eats this kind of rhetoric up.

Australia is actually a very good country for us to look at, because we have similar colonial origins, and both countries have enormous rural areas where guns for self-defense and hunting were and perhaps still are a necessity. They have had excellent success there in curbing gun violence. We can have the same success here, if only people would let go of the idea that we are somehow so different and special that what works for others won't work here.

 

[Sonya610]

We are fighting violence with violence, and unlike steps other western nations have taken, our "fighting back" isn't working. In fact, it's resulting in more death. At what point do we look at how we are "fighting back" and say "you know what, this isn't working". "Fighting back" is not something to be proud of when all it is is mindless violence or accidents that cause the death of innocents.

I hope you do realize that many others see this situation TOTALLY DIFFERENTLY.

Many others see it as a situation where we have a criminal population that is running wild and shooting EACH OTHER primarily with illegal weapons. The idea of disarming the law abiding population and basically making them sitting ducks while the criminal element thrives just does not sit well with many of us.

The authorities are unable or unwilling to control the criminal element so the solution is to control the law abiding folks instead? To disarm the law abiding citizens so they they can't even protect themselves even though it is obvious the government can't stop the criminals? That is how many of us see the situation.

Fact is the Government cannot keep massive amounts of drugs from crossing our borders and there is no way they could keep illegal firearms from flooding the country if there was a demand for it. Right now there is NO demand but if guns became more difficult to get in the US you can be darn sure the criminals and drug cartels would be happy to smuggle them over the borders and make a tidy profit in the process. It is all about demand and supply, if the market demands it they WILL supply it and chances are good they will supply military surplus fully automatic weapons bought from foreign countries which will be even worse than what we have now.

The US is NOT an island, making firearms illegal will ONLY hurt the law abiding citizens and make them even easier prey for the criminal population.

I do understand the mindset of those that think "if we only banned guns the US would be a safe and happy utopia", I do not agree with it at all but I do understand the thought process. I wonder if the other side can understand the gun owners reasoning too? Somehow I doubt it as the other side can't/won't even try to understand our point of view, it is much easier to call folks ignorant and much more satisfying to feel morally superior.

 

[Gardenlady]

I hope you do realize that many others see this situation TOTALLY DIFFERENTLY.

Many others see it as a situation where we have a criminal population that is running wild and shooting EACH OTHER primarily with illegal weapons. The idea of disarming the law abiding population and basically making them sitting ducks while the criminal element thrives just does not sit well with many of us.

The authorities are unable or unwilling to control the criminal element so the solution is to control the law abiding folks instead? To disarm the law abiding citizens so they they can't even protect themselves even though it is obvious the government can't stop the criminals? That is how many of us see the situation.

Fact is the Government cannot keep massive amounts of drugs from crossing our borders and there is no way they could keep illegal firearms from flooding the country if there was a demand for it. Right now there is NO demand but if guns became more difficult to get in the US you can be darn sure the criminals and drug cartels would be happy to smuggle them over the borders and make a tidy profit in the process. It is all about demand and supply, if the market demands it they WILL supply it and chances are good they will supply military surplus fully automatic weapons bought from foreign countries which will be even worse than what we have now.

The US is NOT an island, making firearms illegal will ONLY hurt the law abiding citizens and make them even easier prey for the criminal population.

If the criminal element is, as you say, primarily killing each other - then why does your average law abiding citizen need a gun to protect him/herself? After all, they are not the target of most violence. Having grown up in the inner city, I do agree with you about this - most violence is not random, in my experience. Your average dealer or gang member is not out attacking random non-criminal citizens. The violence is, to a large extent, self-contained.

If there is a problem of violence due to illegal drugs, then perhaps the answer is not in among more and more people (resulting in needless accidents, thefts of guns resulting in more weapons in the hands of criminals, etc) but maybe in scrapping the expensive failure that is the "war on drugs", a dismantling of the industrial prison-for-profit industry, as well as a more robust social policy that renders most criminality less lucrative than a life of crime.

Crime is a complex problem that requires more complex solutions than a mere hands off approach to firearm ownership and a hope that "good guys with guns" out number the bad guys.

A what point does the collateral damage of our current policy become high enough to make people say "this isn't worth it anymore"?

 

[Gardenlady]

I wanted to add - it is not a place of moral superiority that I am arguing from. If it comes off that way, I apologize. The real feeling I have is one of frustration, because I see it as very simple: violence in response to violence never decreases violence. We teach our kids this from an earliest age - dont escalate violence. If someone is violent with you, when you return the violence it only continues. If someone hits you with their hand, you don't return the violence with a bat or other toy. At some point, children learn that hitting, pushing, kicking (violence) does not solve the underlying problem. So why can adults not understand that unchecked possession of tools of violence (firearms) similarly do not address the underlying causes of criminal violence?

A good gun policy does not have to mean complete handover of all guns. Again, Australia is an excellent example to follow in what a common sense gun policy could look like.