Terrible Thought

[PremeditatedCrime]

something like this would be hinted at by many people in the know ..... and there's been no talk of it that I can see.

The theory is probably promoted by John and John Andrew - that's what they want us to believe.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

something like this would be hinted at by many people in the know ..... and there's been no talk of it that I can see.

The theory is probably promoted by John and John Andrew - that's what they want us to believe.

 

[Me66]

This whole supposition is a Terrible Thought.

 

[SeekingJana]

I've always believed John Andrew needed a much closer look and questioning. My initial reaction was: The adult brother did it ( he's a half brother).
He had means and opportunity, and the psychopathology is likely tied into his sister's, Beth's death a few years earlier, which devastated John so badly he kept portraits of her up all in the Boulder house rooms he frequented.

Motive: Hurting " Dad" more seriously by taking away the child he loved most in the world with Beth gone, get back at the stepmother he may not have accepted or loved ( we don't know the family dynamics because they come from the Paugh narratives and the Paughs were ALL disordered in their thinking about a molested and murdered 6 year old granddaughter or niece.)

Is there a true sexual motivation to the crime? Yes, in that she was penetrated by an unyielding object and parts of Patsy's paintbrush fibers were found in JonBenet's vagina. But, no semen was recovered as far as we know from the body.

I don't think the presence of a comforter containing John Andrew's semen plus a very young child's book is BENIGN. I think it has great meaning, and likely had been used before and left in the basement. There's little doubt as to who used it, but what we don't know is if any fibers from JBR's clothing, nightclothing, or urine or other DNA from JBR was recovered.
Most of the descriptions say the semen was " old" but I'm not sure what determines old or new except sperm motility under a lab slide.

John Andrew returned to Atlanta at some point during the Christmas time, but his presence was " confirmed" by a man with a hoodie on in dim light using his ATM card. What I'd like to point out is that I lived in Atlanta at that time, and it was COMMON for young males to give their friends alibis using the " hoodie at the ATM" or gas station defense. It only takes one friend who looked like him and had one of his bank cards, or even one of his parent's bank cards he was authorized to use. We do not know if he was an authorized user of a card his mom, Lucinda, had, but I'd think it's likely. So, IMO, it's not a confirmed sighing of JAR. It's a confirmed sighting of a tall white young adult in a generic colored hoodie at night.

I believe Patsy had strong suspicions that someone in the household was committing a juvenile type of sexual assault upon JonBenet chronically. Digital penetration vs. penile penetration, but not from a small 9 year old according to the measurements in the autopsy report. It is likely, from the vaginal opening measurements, that she was being groomed for penile assault. A 6 year old has a tiny body. This was a determined person who was also a patient and gentle person.

There are other reasons I hold close because of things known, seen, heard and witnessed after the Ramsey family returned to Georgia after JBR's funeral to think a grown male in her family was the abuser, thus, likely the person who killed her.

Reason for murder? She had gotten old enough and verbal enough to tell things about what was happening. Plus, anyone else remember her huge number of visits to the Pediatrician in the year before her death? Patsy knew something was wrong, Dr. Beuf knew something was wrong for a 6 year old to have recurrent vaginal infections without the usual prepubescent flora and lack of estrogenic factors which protect a little girl from yeast infections.
Irritation from bubble bath is external. A yeast infection is internal and should be a red flag alert to a doctor, and likely was.

We know the GJ in Boulder had returned a true bill of indictment against Patsy and John related to the murder. The ONE piece of evidence I've always wanted to know and see is the testimony from Fleet White and Priscilla White, the last 2 adults to see JBR alive outside her family. I hope Fleet's still alive and doing well, as he may be the key to unlocking the truth, or his wife and children in the case of his demise.

All of the above is IMO, only. It is speculation based on circumstantial evidence plus direct evidence at the crimescene which has been released to the public over the past 20 years or so.

I believe there WAS someone else inside the house, someone who didn't belong there that night, but I do not believe he was a stranger intruder at all. One day, John will die, and we'll know what happened, because his surviving children who are innocent will talk and one will be left standing alone- the perpetrator. I truly believe it was a murder within JBR's extended family.
Whatever we believe, whether intruder or family, or deceased family, we can't bring an innocent and beautiful little girl back, a child who likely would have had an extraordinary life except for a violent murderer and pedophile who walked freely in her space for years.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

I've always believed John Andrew needed a much closer look and questioning. My initial reaction was: The adult brother did it ( he's a half brother).
He had means and opportunity, and the psychopathology is likely tied into his sister's, Beth's death a few years earlier, which devastated John so badly he kept portraits of her up all in the Boulder house rooms he frequented.

Motive: Hurting " Dad" more seriously by taking away the child he loved most in the world with Beth gone, get back at the stepmother he may not have accepted or loved ( we don't know the family dynamics because they come from the Paugh narratives and the Paughs were ALL disordered in their thinking about a molested and murdered 6 year old granddaughter or niece.)

Is there a true sexual motivation to the crime? Yes, in that she was penetrated by an unyielding object and parts of Patsy's paintbrush fibers were found in JonBenet's vagina. But, no semen was recovered as far as we know from the body.

I don't think the presence of a comforter containing John Andrew's semen plus a very young child's book is BENIGN. I think it has great meaning, and likely had been used before and left in the basement. There's little doubt as to who used it, but what we don't know is if any fibers from JBR's clothing, nightclothing, or urine or other DNA from JBR was recovered.
Most of the descriptions say the semen was " old" but I'm not sure what determines old or new except sperm motility under a lab slide.

John Andrew returned to Atlanta at some point during the Christmas time, but his presence was " confirmed" by a man with a hoodie on in dim light using his ATM card. What I'd like to point out is that I lived in Atlanta at that time, and it was COMMON for young males to give their friends alibis using the " hoodie at the ATM" or gas station defense. It only takes one friend who looked like him and had one of his bank cards, or even one of his parent's bank cards he was authorized to use. We do not know if he was an authorized user of a card his mom, Lucinda, had, but I'd think it's likely. So, IMO, it's not a confirmed sighing of JAR. It's a confirmed sighting of a tall white young adult in a generic colored hoodie at night.

I believe Patsy had strong suspicions that someone in the household was committing a juvenile type of sexual assault upon JonBenet chronically. Digital penetration vs. penile penetration, but not from a small 9 year old according to the measurements in the autopsy report. It is likely, from the vaginal opening measurements, that she was being groomed for penile assault. A 6 year old has a tiny body. This was a determined person who was also a patient and gentle person.

There are other reasons I hold close because of things known, seen, heard and witnessed after the Ramsey family returned to Georgia after JBR's funeral to think a grown male in her family was the abuser, thus, likely the person who killed her.

Reason for murder? She had gotten old enough and verbal enough to tell things about what was happening. Plus, anyone else remember her huge number of visits to the Pediatrician in the year before her death? Patsy knew something was wrong, Dr. Beuf knew something was wrong for a 6 year old to have recurrent vaginal infections without the usual prepubescent flora and lack of estrogenic factors which protect a little girl from yeast infections.
Irritation from bubble bath is external. A yeast infection is internal and should be a red flag alert to a doctor, and likely was.

We know the GJ in Boulder had returned a true bill of indictment against Patsy and John related to the murder. The ONE piece of evidence I've always wanted to know and see is the testimony from Fleet White and Priscilla White, the last 2 adults to see JBR alive outside her family. I hope Fleet's still alive and doing well, as he may be the key to unlocking the truth, or his wife and children in the case of his demise.

All of the above is IMO, only. It is speculation based on circumstantial evidence plus direct evidence at the crimescene which has been released to the public over the past 20 years or so.

I believe there WAS someone else inside the house, someone who didn't belong there that night, but I do not believe he was a stranger intruder at all. One day, John will die, and we'll know what happened, because his surviving children who are innocent will talk and one will be left standing alone- the perpetrator. I truly believe it was a murder within JBR's extended family.
Whatever we believe, whether intruder or family, or deceased family, we can't bring an innocent and beautiful little girl back, a child who likely would have had an extraordinary life except for a violent murderer and pedophile who walked freely in her space for years.

Yes, he has the two motives: 1) to kill JB so that she cannot report PRIOR sexual abuse; and 2) to frame Patsy, his stepmother.

We all know that a routine "sexual predator" would not be interested in framing the mother. He'd be more anxious to frame the father!

Why did Patsy cover for her stepson? Lack of witness protection programs? Or John convinced Patsy that Burke was the killer?

If John the father was also involved, then I strongly suspect that he gave Patsy a sedative so that she would sleep soundly that night. Yes, I know that they had separate bedrooms.

Ransom note - it definitely reads like a note that a young man would write!

Motive - John Andrew wants to get Patsy out of the way. He wants his father to get back together with his mother. NOT out of a desire to see his parents reunited, but due to his father's WEALTH.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

I've always believed John Andrew needed a much closer look and questioning. My initial reaction was: The adult brother did it ( he's a half brother).
He had means and opportunity, and the psychopathology is likely tied into his sister's, Beth's death a few years earlier, which devastated John so badly he kept portraits of her up all in the Boulder house rooms he frequented.

Motive: Hurting " Dad" more seriously by taking away the child he loved most in the world with Beth gone, get back at the stepmother he may not have accepted or loved ( we don't know the family dynamics because they come from the Paugh narratives and the Paughs were ALL disordered in their thinking about a molested and murdered 6 year old granddaughter or niece.)

Is there a true sexual motivation to the crime? Yes, in that she was penetrated by an unyielding object and parts of Patsy's paintbrush fibers were found in JonBenet's vagina. But, no semen was recovered as far as we know from the body.

I don't think the presence of a comforter containing John Andrew's semen plus a very young child's book is BENIGN. I think it has great meaning, and likely had been used before and left in the basement. There's little doubt as to who used it, but what we don't know is if any fibers from JBR's clothing, nightclothing, or urine or other DNA from JBR was recovered.
Most of the descriptions say the semen was " old" but I'm not sure what determines old or new except sperm motility under a lab slide.

John Andrew returned to Atlanta at some point during the Christmas time, but his presence was " confirmed" by a man with a hoodie on in dim light using his ATM card. What I'd like to point out is that I lived in Atlanta at that time, and it was COMMON for young males to give their friends alibis using the " hoodie at the ATM" or gas station defense. It only takes one friend who looked like him and had one of his bank cards, or even one of his parent's bank cards he was authorized to use. We do not know if he was an authorized user of a card his mom, Lucinda, had, but I'd think it's likely. So, IMO, it's not a confirmed sighing of JAR. It's a confirmed sighting of a tall white young adult in a generic colored hoodie at night.

I believe Patsy had strong suspicions that someone in the household was committing a juvenile type of sexual assault upon JonBenet chronically. Digital penetration vs. penile penetration, but not from a small 9 year old according to the measurements in the autopsy report. It is likely, from the vaginal opening measurements, that she was being groomed for penile assault. A 6 year old has a tiny body. This was a determined person who was also a patient and gentle person.

There are other reasons I hold close because of things known, seen, heard and witnessed after the Ramsey family returned to Georgia after JBR's funeral to think a grown male in her family was the abuser, thus, likely the person who killed her.

Reason for murder? She had gotten old enough and verbal enough to tell things about what was happening. Plus, anyone else remember her huge number of visits to the Pediatrician in the year before her death? Patsy knew something was wrong, Dr. Beuf knew something was wrong for a 6 year old to have recurrent vaginal infections without the usual prepubescent flora and lack of estrogenic factors which protect a little girl from yeast infections.
Irritation from bubble bath is external. A yeast infection is internal and should be a red flag alert to a doctor, and likely was.

We know the GJ in Boulder had returned a true bill of indictment against Patsy and John related to the murder. The ONE piece of evidence I've always wanted to know and see is the testimony from Fleet White and Priscilla White, the last 2 adults to see JBR alive outside her family. I hope Fleet's still alive and doing well, as he may be the key to unlocking the truth, or his wife and children in the case of his demise.

All of the above is IMO, only. It is speculation based on circumstantial evidence plus direct evidence at the crimescene which has been released to the public over the past 20 years or so.

I believe there WAS someone else inside the house, someone who didn't belong there that night, but I do not believe he was a stranger intruder at all. One day, John will die, and we'll know what happened, because his surviving children who are innocent will talk and one will be left standing alone- the perpetrator. I truly believe it was a murder within JBR's extended family.
Whatever we believe, whether intruder or family, or deceased family, we can't bring an innocent and beautiful little girl back, a child who likely would have had an extraordinary life except for a violent murderer and pedophile who walked freely in her space for years.

Regarding Elizabeth - I do believe the reports that she accused John the father (not John Andrew) of sexual abuse. A few weeks or a few months after she accused John of sexual abuse, she died in a "car accident." Some people put it at 6 weeks after.

John kept a portrait of Elizabeth in his bathroom - pretty creepy!

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

I've always believed John Andrew needed a much closer look and questioning. My initial reaction was: The adult brother did it ( he's a half brother).
He had means and opportunity, and the psychopathology is likely tied into his sister's, Beth's death a few years earlier, which devastated John so badly he kept portraits of her up all in the Boulder house rooms he frequented.

Motive: Hurting " Dad" more seriously by taking away the child he loved most in the world with Beth gone, get back at the stepmother he may not have accepted or loved ( we don't know the family dynamics because they come from the Paugh narratives and the Paughs were ALL disordered in their thinking about a molested and murdered 6 year old granddaughter or niece.)

Is there a true sexual motivation to the crime? Yes, in that she was penetrated by an unyielding object and parts of Patsy's paintbrush fibers were found in JonBenet's vagina. But, no semen was recovered as far as we know from the body.

I don't think the presence of a comforter containing John Andrew's semen plus a very young child's book is BENIGN. I think it has great meaning, and likely had been used before and left in the basement. There's little doubt as to who used it, but what we don't know is if any fibers from JBR's clothing, nightclothing, or urine or other DNA from JBR was recovered.
Most of the descriptions say the semen was " old" but I'm not sure what determines old or new except sperm motility under a lab slide.

John Andrew returned to Atlanta at some point during the Christmas time, but his presence was " confirmed" by a man with a hoodie on in dim light using his ATM card. What I'd like to point out is that I lived in Atlanta at that time, and it was COMMON for young males to give their friends alibis using the " hoodie at the ATM" or gas station defense. It only takes one friend who looked like him and had one of his bank cards, or even one of his parent's bank cards he was authorized to use. We do not know if he was an authorized user of a card his mom, Lucinda, had, but I'd think it's likely. So, IMO, it's not a confirmed sighing of JAR. It's a confirmed sighting of a tall white young adult in a generic colored hoodie at night.

I believe Patsy had strong suspicions that someone in the household was committing a juvenile type of sexual assault upon JonBenet chronically. Digital penetration vs. penile penetration, but not from a small 9 year old according to the measurements in the autopsy report. It is likely, from the vaginal opening measurements, that she was being groomed for penile assault. A 6 year old has a tiny body. This was a determined person who was also a patient and gentle person.

There are other reasons I hold close because of things known, seen, heard and witnessed after the Ramsey family returned to Georgia after JBR's funeral to think a grown male in her family was the abuser, thus, likely the person who killed her.

Reason for murder? She had gotten old enough and verbal enough to tell things about what was happening. Plus, anyone else remember her huge number of visits to the Pediatrician in the year before her death? Patsy knew something was wrong, Dr. Beuf knew something was wrong for a 6 year old to have recurrent vaginal infections without the usual prepubescent flora and lack of estrogenic factors which protect a little girl from yeast infections.
Irritation from bubble bath is external. A yeast infection is internal and should be a red flag alert to a doctor, and likely was.

We know the GJ in Boulder had returned a true bill of indictment against Patsy and John related to the murder. The ONE piece of evidence I've always wanted to know and see is the testimony from Fleet White and Priscilla White, the last 2 adults to see JBR alive outside her family. I hope Fleet's still alive and doing well, as he may be the key to unlocking the truth, or his wife and children in the case of his demise.

All of the above is IMO, only. It is speculation based on circumstantial evidence plus direct evidence at the crimescene which has been released to the public over the past 20 years or so.

I believe there WAS someone else inside the house, someone who didn't belong there that night, but I do not believe he was a stranger intruder at all. One day, John will die, and we'll know what happened, because his surviving children who are innocent will talk and one will be left standing alone- the perpetrator. I truly believe it was a murder within JBR's extended family.
Whatever we believe, whether intruder or family, or deceased family, we can't bring an innocent and beautiful little girl back, a child who likely would have had an extraordinary life except for a violent murderer and pedophile who walked freely in her space for years.

Framing his step-mother, Patsy. John Andrew wants to see his father get back together with his mother. But what people (not yourself) often overlook is that it's NOT a desire to see his parents reunite, it's due to his father's WEALTH!

 

[SeekingJana]

Yes, he has the two motives: 1) to kill JB so that she cannot report PRIOR sexual abuse; and 2) to frame Patsy, his stepmother.

We all know that a routine "sexual predator" would not be interested in framing the mother. He'd be more anxious to frame the father!

Why did Patsy cover for her stepson? Lack of witness protection programs? Or John convinced Patsy that Burke was the killer?

If John the father was also involved, then I strongly suspect that he gave Patsy a sedative so that she would sleep soundly that night. Yes, I know that they had separate bedrooms.

Ransom note - it definitely reads like a note that a young man would write!

Motive - John Andrew wants to get Patsy out of the way. He wants his father to get back together with his mother. NOT out of a desire to see his parents reunited, but due to his father's WEALTH.

I believe Patsy and John decided on a bargain with the devil on the AM of the 26th, maybe just after midnight, not sure when they were aware of the murder.

I definitely believe Patsy wrote the ransom " letter". I believe the rest of the crime scene after-crime staging was to confuse and deflect.
Then, there is the issue of the wet clothing in plastic bags to go into John's private plane for the trip to Charlevoix. This tells me the trip was a very last minute afterthought. Maybe more damage control was to be discussed with JAR in Michigan ( not Minnesota, as one poster recently posted).

The deal between John and Patsy could have included things such as:
1) No cure at that time for ovarian cancer. She knew she was on borrowed time, whereas John had lost 2 children in short order, and desperately wanted to keep the ones left, and keep JAR out of prison.

2) The knowledge they had to have regarding JAR's mental status. I can't diagnose him as an armchair sleuth, but I think we'd agree that someone who could kill a 6 year old and take the time in the house we believe was taken with her, then with her body, was bold and unafraid. A dangerous person, likely to become more dangerous without extensive mental health care. ( I know more about this but I cannot divulge).

3) Societal pressure. Patsy was as superficial as a temporary sticker tattoo, and John was likely in shock. I believe Patsy thought up most of the staged elements. John followed along.
He had HIGH hopes that someone else would find JBR's body, but the basement was said to be a " rabbit warren" at that time and also we've seen the disarray in photos. He HAD to find her after rigor mortis had set in and there was beginning putrefaction of the body.

4) Neither parent wanted to go to prison either, and the rumblings started very early. Burke was also a chippy little bird into everything, and some of his items were used, either in the killing or as staging, but he did not kill his sister, IMO. There was no motive for him to do so.

There are many more factors, but I've listed the major ones. Lou Smitt almost almost had it right a few times. I watched his Netflix " monologue" and so forth. He just lumped the " family" all together instead of looking at INDIVIDUAL MOTIVATION and sexual needs unfulfilled by an emotionally needy and possibly stunted and possibly pushed aside young adult, JAR.

 

[SeekingJana]

Regarding Elizabeth - I do believe the reports that she accused John the father (not John Andrew) of sexual abuse. A few weeks or a few months after she accused John of sexual abuse, she died in a "car accident." Some people put it at 6 weeks after.

John kept a portrait of Elizabeth in his bathroom - pretty creepy!

1) John had multiple photos and mementos of Beth's in the house. John was NOT a pedophile. He did not abuse any of his children, or any other child, IMO as a behavioral psychologist who's read about this case and knows people involved and peripheral people in Atlanta at the time.

I think, but cannot prove as it was said to me so long ago, that Patsy took down some of the portraits of Beth and put them on the upper walls in John's bathroom. A sort of " marking territory" between the 2 sets of children he had. Not out of malice, but because John did obsess about Beth's death.
All IMO except the part about the larger photos being moved.

 

[SeekingJana]

Framing his step-mother, Patsy. John Andrew wants to see his father get back together with his mother. But what people (not yourself) often overlook is that it's NOT a desire to see his parents reunite, it's due to his father's WEALTH!

I think it was not that he framed Patsy, but that Patsy ( and John) set up a " faux kidnapping' situation with JBR's body but didn't have a chance to get her body, with all the things that had been done to her and that killed her, out of the house and into the snowy mountains outside Boulder.

Burke woke up at some point with all the screaming and carrying on upstairs and downstairs and asked what was going on. They HAD to stop and stay there because they had a talking, living witness who was 9 years old and could definitely tell what he saw. I do not believe he saw anything important, but has put some pieces together as he's aged.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

He had HIGH hopes that someone else would find JBR's body, but the basement was said to be a " rabbit warren" at that time and also we've seen the disarray in photos. He HAD to find her after rigor mortis had set in and there was beginning putrefaction of the body.

Could you clarify? Why did John have to find the body after rigor mortis had set in? To disguise evidence?

Also: Why call the police before John had time to dispose of the dead body? I guess because he and Patsy still held hopes of giving JB a proper funeral and burial. Also, could John have gotten the body out of the basement without the neighbors seeing? Would the body fit in a suitcase?

Ransom note: It still sounds like something that a young man would write.

Thank you for the helpful information.

 

[SeekingJana]

I want to clarify something I wrote about John Andrew NOT being in Atlanta on the day into night of the murder.

It's VERY important.
In the late 1990's, CC cameras were present at ATMs, gas stations, mini marts, and other all night facilities in Atlanta.

There is at least THREE murders which happened exactly like I said the alibi for John Andrew was made.
A young male would get a friend who knew not to look directly into the camera or stand in the light would go to the ATM and withdraw money using the criminal's card, not his own.

The police ALWAYS used the ATM footage as " proof he was here at 2: 23 AM" or the like. It took MANY crimes and some common sense detective work to realize the murderer, robber, rapist, whomever, was using a friend as a " patsy set up" person during the time of the crime. It's a very elementary mistake made early in the security camera era, and now, we hope it's not still being used as an alibi for murder or other crimes. " I was at the ATM, check the footage, man" just doesn't have much credence when the person looked " generic" and was wearing a dark colored hoodie sweatshirt pulled down low on the face.

Our facial recognition software has improved greatly. I do wonder if anyone's pulled out the old ATM footage and run it through Lockheed's proprietary software, which is said to be the best in the world?

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

I think it was not that he framed Patsy, but that Patsy ( and John) set up a " faux kidnapping' situation with JBR's body but didn't have a chance to get her body, with all the things that had been done to her and that killed her, out of the house and into the snowy mountains outside Boulder.

Burke woke up at some point with all the screaming and carrying on upstairs and downstairs and asked what was going on. They HAD to stop and stay there because they had a talking, living witness who was 9 years old and could definitely tell what he saw. I do not believe he saw anything important, but has put some pieces together as he's aged.

Okay, maybe Patsy came up with the staging. But you are not going to tell me that Patsy came up with the garrote? Can I assume that this was done by John Andrew?

And, why did John have to find the find the body AFTER rigor mortis had set in? To disguise evidence? You mentioned that he was hoping that someone else would find the body, but then he had to go and retrieve the body.

Could JOhn have gotten the body out without neighbors seeing?

Thank you again for the information.

 

[SeekingJana]

He had HIGH hopes that someone else would find JBR's body, but the basement was said to be a " rabbit warren" at that time and also we've seen the disarray in photos. He HAD to find her after rigor mortis had set in and there was beginning putrefaction of the body.

Could you clarify? Why did John have to find the body after rigor mortis had set in? To disguise evidence?

Also: Why call the police before John had time to dispose of the dead body? I guess because he and Patsy still held hopes of giving JB a proper funeral and burial. Also, could John have gotten the body out of the basement without the neighbors seeing? Would the body fit in a suitcase?

Ransom note: It still sounds like something that a young man would write.

Thank you for the helpful information.

Sure. Remember, I was not there, but was in on some police info and also had a connection to some of JBR's blood relatives as soon as the family returned to Atlanta.

John needed to find the body before the SMELL started wafting up through the furnace ducts in the basement and Patsy went to pieces. He likely didn't have thoughts of destroying anything at that point. He was very antsy, and it is not unusual for a family member with knowledge of a hidden body to be the one to " find" the body, or truly find the body. ( staged vs. real. He knew where she was, and he did find her).
Of course, we know Patsy did truly fall apart when he brought the stiff little body upstairs, anyway. She knew her daughter was dead while she was vomiting on the carpet, praying for Jesus to raise her from the dead as He had done Lazarus during His time on earth.

Patsy accidentally or purposefully contaminated the body, the clothing, and the hair by the placement of the body under the Christmas tree, heavy with ornaments, one which ended up on the body, even.

BURKE waking up and asking " What did you find?" is the reason for the second 911 call, and all that followed. He was a talking, living witness to at least the AM's actions. ( We don't know how much. We haven't been told at what point he woke up but it's not when his dad came in and told him JBR was dead and he was playing " asleep". He'd been up before that time.

Burke is why many of the couple's likely plans for a kidnapping fell through. I believe they'd gotten JAR out of the house and to a college friend's house sometime early, before Burke awoke.
I do think he's realized what likely happened to his sister, and he is NOT going to say anything now, as that would put the bull's eye on his back, perhaps. IDK.
IMO.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

Sure. Remember, I was not there, but was in on some police info and also had a connection to some of JBR's blood relatives as soon as the family returned to Atlanta.

John needed to find the body before the SMELL started wafting up through the furnace ducts in the basement and Patsy went to pieces. He likely didn't have thoughts of destroying anything at that point. He was very antsy, and it is not unusual for a family member with knowledge of a hidden body to be the one to " find" the body, or truly find the body. ( staged vs. real. He knew where she was, and he did find her).
Of course, we know Patsy did truly fall apart when he brought the stiff little body upstairs, anyway. She knew her daughter was dead while she was vomiting on the carpet, praying for Jesus to raise her from the dead as He had done Lazarus during His time on earth.

Patsy accidentally or purposefully contaminated the body, the clothing, and the hair by the placement of the body under the Christmas tree, heavy with ornaments, one which ended up on the body, even.

BURKE waking up and asking " What did you find?" is the reason for the second 911 call, and all that followed. He was a talking, living witness to at least the AM's actions. ( We don't know how much. We haven't been told at what point he woke up but it's not when his dad came in and told him JBR was dead and he was playing " asleep". He'd been up before that time.

Burke is why many of the couple's likely plans for a kidnapping fell through. I believe they'd gotten JAR out of the house and to a college friend's house sometime early, before Burke awoke.
I do think he's realized what likely happened to his sister, and he is NOT going to say anything now, as that would put the bull's eye on his back, perhaps. IDK.
IMO.

Okay. Thank you for the information.

1. But Patsy did NOT do the garroting of her daughter? Can I assume that John Andrew did this? The fact that Patsy's paintbrush was used, does suggest that Patsy was framed.

2. Also: You know the detective who wrote the book that Patsy killed JB over a wed-betting incident - well, that was sexist! I mean, fathers also explode and go into rages. But everyone says: "Patsy went into a rage and killed her daughter."

Hope you understand the questions.

 

[SeekingJana]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

But Patsy did NOT do the garroting of her daughter? Can I assume that John Andrew did this? The fact that Patsy's paintbrush was used, does suggest that Patsy was framed.

Hope you understand the question.

I can't answer that one question about the strangulation device.

I know it was what caused initial unconsciousness. When the head blow was administered, there was said to be less bleeding that would usually be found. I have read the autopsy report and know from my professional knowledge this is true due to the massive fracture.

Thus, the strangulation device had restricted blood flow and O2 to JBR's brain and we know the knot or knots were tied so tightly the ligature had to be carefully cut off between knots. ( She was very tiny so it was a small cord).

The other part is that police looked for a cord such as to a pair of men's sweatpants or sweatshirt for a long time.. believing the choking device was created on the spot in the house.

If the jacket fibers absolutely do match the garotte fibers, the only OTHER scenario that fits is that there was a pair of sweatpants with a good length of the ties hanging out placed underneath or over the jacket in a casual way. Maybe JAR's sweat pants were accidentally packed for Charlevoix and Patsy had to get them out early in the evening ( before the murder). Fiber transfer would have occurred and a secondary microscopic transfer would be noted in the cord knots.
IF this is so, the pants or hoodie top have never been identified officially by LE as far as we know.

The person who wrote the ransom letter was in a state of panic. It's my belief, and always has been, that the jabs to John in the ransom letter came from a phone call that Patsy made to either Nedra or Don Paugh ( likely Nedra but she was ill by this time, so I can't be certain).

Some of the language is " older" and stilted. It seemed to belong to an older person than Patsy, and she would have called her parents with all that was happening and had happened. They KNEW their granddaughter was dead before they were told. The police force in charge told me of their reaction. Nedra's MD was also a good friend of mine and told me many things she said before she passed away from complications of diabetes and other diseases of age.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

I can't answer that one question about the strangulation device.

I know it was what caused initial unconsciousness. When the head blow was administered, there was said to be less bleeding that would usually be found. I have read the autopsy report and believe this is true due to the massive fracture.

Thus, the strangulation device had restricted blood flow and O2 to JBR's brain and we know the knot or knots were tied so tightly the ligature had to be carefully cut off between knots. ( She was very tiny so it was a small cord).

The other part is that police looked for a cord such as to a pair of men's sweatpants or sweatshirt for a long time.. believing the choking device was created on the spot in the house.

The fact that they SAY Patsy's jacket fibers are woven inside the knots makes it unlikely that anyone other than Patsy created the garotte. I'm not sure about all that part, actually. Not because it doesn't fit my theory or any theory except PDI ( which I believed for a long time) but because it's one thing to let a child fall backwards in the bathtub accidentally and stage a murder scene on the fly and quite another to plan such a DISORGANIZED set of evidence.
I believe Patsy was methodical and meticulous regarding her appearance and that of her 2 young children. Maybe John as well, IDK.

The person who wrote the ransom letter was in a state of panic. It's my belief, and always has been, that the jabs to John in the ransom letter came from a phone call that Patsy made to either Nedra or Don Paugh ( likely Nedra but she was ill by this time, so I can't be certain).

Some of the language is " older" and stilted. It seemed to belong to an older person than Patsy, and she would have called her parents with all that was happening and had happened. They KNEW their granddaughter was dead before they were told. The police force in charge told me of their reaction. Nedra's MD was also a good friend of mine and told me many things she said before she passed away from complications of diabetes and other diseases of age.

Thanks again. Can you also see my comment about sexism? I had edited my previous comment and asked why many people were so quick to blame Patsy, rather than John.

Also: still don't understand. Patsy killed the daughter with the garrote? Or John and/or Patsy found JB almost dead from the head injury? And then AFTER they staged the garrote?

 

[SeekingJana]

Thanks again. Can you also see my comment about sexism? I had edited my previous comment and asked why many people were so quick to blame Patsy, rather than John.

Patsy was said to be the one who cleaned JBR up or just put her back in diapers ( Pull Ups) when she started soiling and wetting the bed again a few months before her death.

We don't know, but the housekeeper, LHP, has given conflicting statements in the past about whether the soiling and wetting was a big deal to Patsy or hardly mattered at all. The only large ramification I can see is that if the Pull Ups were being worn during the day, as we have some evidence to support, it likely harmed her pageant life. She was known to ask anyone around to help clean her up if Patsy wasn't around.

JBR had known trauma and was so ready to talk about it, IMO.

What Patsy likely didn't know is that soiling, especially, in a potty trained child is a sign of stress. Often the stress is hidden abuse.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

Patsy was said to be the one who cleaned JBR up or just put her back in diapers ( Pull Ups) when she started soiling and wetting the bed again a few months before her death.

We don't know, but the housekeeper, LHP, has given conflicting statements in the past about whether the soiling and wetting was a big deal to Patsy or hardly mattered at all. The only large ramification I can see is that if the Pull Ups were being worn during the day, as we have some evidence to support, it likely harmed her pageant life. She was known to ask anyone around to help clean her up if Patsy wasn't around.

JBR had known trauma and was so ready to talk about it, IMO.

What Patsy likely didn't know is that soiling, especially, in a potty trained child is a sign of stress. Often the stress is hidden abuse.

And John Andrew may have committed premeditated murder to keep JB from talking? And to get back at John and Patsy?

So, John Andrew did the blow to the head? And then Patsy assumed JB would die anyway, so she did the garrote?

Patsy killed the daughter with the garrote? Or John and/or Patsy found JB almost dead from the head injury? And then AFTER they staged the garrote?

 

[icedtea4me]

<snip>John was NOT a pedophile. He did not abuse any of his children, or any other child, IMO as a behavioral psychologist who's read about this case and knows people involved and peripheral people in Atlanta at the time.<snip>

Did John and Lucinda experience exactly everything in their marriage as he and Patsy experienced in their marriage? Was Lucinda a former Miss America contestant? Did Lucinda have that which made her a woman destroyed by stage 4 ovarian cancer? Did Lucinda enter Beth and/or Melinda in child beauty pageants and make them look older than what they really were?