The carpet outside of the wine cellar with urine stains

[Tadpole12]

FMIhttp://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-inventory.htmDecember 27, 1996 Search Warrant Page 5: Carpet (1MTE) Carpet (2MTE) Carpet (3MTE) Carpet (4MTE) Carpet (5MTE) Carpet (6MTE) Carpet (7MTE) Carpet (8MTE)December 27, 1996 Search Warrant Page 7:Envelope w/carpet samples (9MTE)****************************************https://books.google.ca/books?id=fcIQIU43k5gC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=jonbenet+ramsey+carpet+samples&source=bl&ots=p80sm6dUDL&sig=bTyALaeqYjNj94nda-N6GzBU53Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi66MSwl_bUAhVK8IMKHeehCtQ4FBDoAQg0MAM#v=onepage&q=jonbenet%20ramsey%20carpet%20samples&f=false"Not infrequently a large section of carpet from thecrime scene is cut up and removedso that vacuuming can be done under controlledconditions." ********************https://shakedowntitle.com/tag/patsyramsey/page/2/This is the spot where the paint caddy was found [the wine cellar doorway is to the right] –the urine stained carpet was cut out and collected for testinghttps://www.google.ca/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZius5ktO2UQwjDzciu68mih5CNR69WisX109A3qaMBnDEaXPYJr-xi9Um4B7xATQOKNSN3Ci52OoHwdt3cUBTv6nX-hK2DQq5-gcdoqaXIH1en_1xUYju3lvcap4XAJxNfBuMcoXIPr7T6Ar9cG8K_1r32Gcz9MYFL6sMae_1tZltAv_1dEhgDJa3Y5B9aa8Kpod8Jgk55bKAbL1xOc1z-PxCcXV0La02U7cDmwJkrEoq4JgO0W6rfKbCxnNRfrGSkFvQ5vTdb-dcKITi4oaHT7VnOfJhtk5jyRbfJ5X0cBJtyZWpvpeJocjoniy7q73Zk4tvWuR6KiA&btnG=Search%20by%20image&hl=en-CA********************************************

 

[Tadpole12]

W
T

heck

 

[icedtea4me]

 

[BoldBear]

I never noticed it, but the carpet removed wasn't directly in front of the door. It was beside the door where the paintings, paint tote and boxes were located. Things had been moved around from the kidnapping phase of the crime to the murder phase. The police have two different sets of photos from the different times. I wonder if the paint tote was placed over the urine soaked carpet.

As for Patsy painting another painter's work, she was learning to paint. It's common when learning how to do something to mimic someone else's work. That's one of the ways you learn. I wouldn't worry too much that an armature is trying to pass their work off as original.

 

[UKGuy]

I never noticed it, but the carpet removed wasn't directly in front of the door. It was beside the door where the paintings, paint tote and boxes were located. Things had been moved around from the kidnapping phase of the crime to the murder phase. The police have two different sets of photos from the different times. I wonder if the paint tote was placed over the urine soaked carpet.

As for Patsy painting another painter's work, she was learning to paint. It's common when learning how to do something to mimic someone else's work. That's one of the ways you learn. I wouldn't worry too much that an armature is trying to pass their work off as original.

BoldBear,
Yes I was surprised as to where the paint tote was in the photograph, the narrative in various books made me think it was a distance away. Yet it makes sense to have your staging equipment close to hand. I think I was going on LHP's comments on where she placed Patsy's art materials.

I agree Patsy was likely copying stuff to practice, I think she was a tortured artist, in the romantic sense, she probably thought she had a novel in her, she was very good with words, e.g. Don't go there pal, now that's not high class Boulder lingo is it? Then there is her other novella: the RN.


So the real question is who was Patsy staging for, i.e. herself or Burke? If for herself and accepting she was no dummy, why all the mistakes, especially on stuff central to the staging?

.

 

[AndHence]

Is it really true that Jameson is the only source for the urine stain on the carpet outside the wine cellar? This piece of evidence is crucial seeing as it gives us the place of death. I can't remember if Steve Thomas mentions it in his book. It is interesting that the Bonita papers and PMPT do not document it.

 

[DeDee]

otg has kindly posted that data, regarding, it is official, the urine soaked longjohns and the carpet was wet with urine, within the past week on the forum for the umpteenth time. Ha!

BoldBear, that is a great observation and quite astute on the placement of the paint items and the door in relation to the HellHole. CSI removed the carpet from under the tote, stack of pictures and moved possibly framed or unfinished paintings that's leaning against the wall, while leaving the carpet in place directly in front of the HellHole door.

Well, how did the urine get over there and not in a spot in front of the cellar door as I've been believing? Why did LE take so many carpet samples from her bedroom? They scarcely left any except under the beds and inside the closets.

Was this piece of basement carpet the one that had the wooden whittling crumbs? There was whittling found near the CS in the hallway. A tiny piece of the whittling could be the birefringent material seen microscopically in the vagina. Folks, birefringent material should not be found in her vagina.

 

[DeDee]

Is it really true that Jameson is the only source for the urine stain on the carpet outside the wine cellar? This piece of evidence is crucial seeing as it gives us the place of death. I can't remember if Steve Thomas mentions it in his book. It is interesting that the Bonita papers and PMPT do not document it.

I truly do not know. Town Marshall James Kolar feels the strangulation, her bladder releasing, and death occurred outside of the WC in the area where urine should have been present in the carpet. Kolar mentions all of those points in his book, Foreign Faction, as well as he did in the recent CBS Special Documentary.

You are right in that it's interesting for the urine stain not to be mentioned in the Bonita Papers nor PMPT. I recall that two officers remarked how the odor of urine was prevalent in JBs bedroom from her sheets. Is that in the BP or PMPT?

 

[SandyQLS]

...RSBM for length...
However since you want more information, I did a little more research.

Nothing detects “urine” -- just like luminol doesn’t really detect “blood.” Each of the tests detects elements found within the fluids. Luminol reacts with the iron in hemoglobin causing it to fluoresce. Besides luminol, fluorescein is also used to locate possible blood; and DMAC (dimethylacetamide) and picric acid are use to located possible urine. Tests for urine look to identify urea and/or creatinine within the urine. From the book Forensic Science (link below):

Creatinine is detected by applying a saturated solution of picric acid in toluene or benzene to a stain extract. It combines to form creatinine picrate, an easily detectable colored product.
​

From Reactions of Creatinine with Alkaline Picrate:

...addition of 2 to 3 moles of alkaline picrate per mole of creatinine in aqueous solution resulted in the formation of a red compound. Color development, as in the Jaffe reaction, was essentially complete within 10 minutes at room temperature. The colored compound could be removed from solution by pouring the mixture into ethyl alcohol. Addition of acid to the precipitate permitted quantitative recovery of unchanged picric acid. If the aqueous mixture of creatinine and picrate stood for 30 or more minutes, some fading was noted, and subsequent recovery of picric acid was no longer quantitative.
​

...RSBM for length...

otg - you are wonderful! I had found DMAC and some other information, but never arrived at the RED reaction coloration. I think you have solved that puzzle. It has never been confirmed whose urine it is, but Kolar tells us it is JBR's urine (as opposed to BR or Jacques the dog). Thank you!

 

[SandyQLS]

I truly do not know. Town Marshall James Kolar feels the strangulation, her bladder releasing, and death occurred outside of the WC in the area where urine should have been present in the carpet. Kolar mentions all of those points in his book, Foreign Faction, as well as he did in the recent CBS Special Documentary.

You are right in that it's interesting for the urine stain not to be mentioned in the Bonita Papers nor PMPT. I recall that two officers remarked how the odor of urine was prevalent in JBs bedroom from her sheets. Is that in the BP or PMPT?

Thomas, c. 2000, hardcover first edition page 286:

"Later JonBenet awakened after wetting her bed, as indicated by the plastic sheets, the urine stains, the pull-up diaper package hanging halfway out of a cabinet..."

(Thomas continues with a description of his theory that the headblow happened in JBR's bathroom.

page 287:
"John and Burke continued to sleep while Patsy moved the body of JonBenet down to the basement and hid her in the little room. ..."

So Thomas mentions the wet bed, but ignores the carpet stain, unless the book was updated later.

*
questfortrue posted 2-20-2017 #1611page 108 of "Questions you'd like answers to":

"Here is what Kolar wrote: "Smit discounted observations made by the investigators and CSIs who had processed the scene shortly after the murder: the sheets on JonBenét’s bed reeked of urine." (FF)
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...you-d-like-answers-to&p=13159569#post13159569

hth

 

[otg]

I wonder if that's how they found it on the box of chocolates. I always thought the fecal material was visible. It may not have been immediately visible?

Thank you, BB. That hadn't occurred to me. If that were the case (that it showed up with luminol), they might not have known it wasn't blood. Right? Blood turns brown when dried. If the box of chocolates was discovered because of this, wouldn't the material have been tested to identify its owner? But Kolar specifically stated in one of his interviews that the fecal matter found there was not tested. I still wonder now why not.

 

[UKGuy]

Thank you, BB. That hadn't occurred to me. If that were the case (that it showed up with luminol), they might not have known it wasn't blood. Right? Blood turns brown when dried. If the box of chocolates was discovered because of this, wouldn't the material have been tested to identify its owner? But Kolar specifically stated in one of his interviews that the fecal matter found there was not tested. I still wonder now why not.

otg,
More than likely because it belonged to BR so any reference is elided as it is elsewhere.

.

 

[otg]

Luminol reacts with fecal matter, causing the same glow as if it were blood.

Actually, luminol reacts with quite a few substances, including bleach which is used to hide blood evidence. That's why luminol is a presumptive test versus a confirmatory test. Confirmatory testing is more expensive and not practical for searching large areas.

 

[otg]

otg,
More than likely because it belonged to BR so any reference is elided as it is elsewhere.

I don't think so, UKG. IIRC, Kolar specifically stated that it wasn't tested.

 

[UKGuy]

Thomas, c. 2000, hardcover first edition page 286:

"Later JonBenet awakened after wetting her bed, as indicated by the plastic sheets, the urine stains, the pull-up diaper package hanging halfway out of a cabinet..."

(Thomas continues with a description of his theory that the headblow happened in JBR's bathroom.

page 287:
"John and Burke continued to sleep while Patsy moved the body of JonBenet down to the basement and hid her in the little room. ..."

So Thomas mentions the wet bed, but ignores the carpet stain, unless the book was updated later.

*
questfortrue posted 2-20-2017 #1611page 108 of "Questions you'd like answers to":

"Here is what Kolar wrote: "Smit discounted observations made by the investigators and CSIs who had processed the scene shortly after the murder: the sheets on JonBenét’s bed reeked of urine." (FF)
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...you-d-like-answers-to&p=13159569#post13159569

hth

SandyQLS,
Well on the PDI here are some observations:

if JonBenet wet her bed then she more or less emptied her bladder. yet downstairs in the basement she again emptied her bladder wetting her size-12's and Burke's long johns.

We can infer JonBenet was killed after being wiped down, and redressed. Presumably the white blanket was a last minute addition as it was not urine soaked?

So if the standard PDI is correct JonBenet must have drank a lot of fluids prior to being killed, say one hour, as fluid moves quickly through a childs body.

Now if the carpet in the basement was stained with urine, as per Kolar, then you have more urine entering the carpet in addition to that in her clothing, some volume?

Something that would not have happened if JonBenet had been wrapped in a blanket, so could it have happened this way, i.e. two evacuations of JonBenet's bladder?

It could have, but I doubt it, seems more probable her basement evacuation was the only one?

.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't think so, UKG. IIRC, Kolar specifically stated that it wasn't tested.

otg,
Yup that's my point, it wasn't tested. Consider the fecal material in the pajama pants found on JonBenet's bedroom floor?

Lots of stuff was elided over precisely to avoid any difficult questions. They had no difficulty testing JonBenet's mattress for urine.

.

.

 

[BoldBear]

Thomas really got run over the coals in his deposition about the sheets. Were they wet? Did you see them? Who reported that there were urine stains on the bed? How big were the stains? He couldn't report on any of it because he didn't know. He thinks he may have heard it from someone.

In his book he doesn't actually say, "urine stained sheets". He uses the term, "the urine stains."

 

[UKGuy]

Thomas really got run over the coals in his deposition about the sheets. Were they wet? Did you see them? Who reported that there were urine stains on the bed? How big were the stains? He couldn't report on any of it because he didn't know. He thinks he may have heard it from someone.

In his book he doesn't actually say, "urine stained sheets". He uses the term, "the urine stains."

BoldBear,
Yup and thats why I seriously doubt PDI.

Thomas' book is based on the then known forensic evidence. We have moved on, JR and PR faced GJ charges. I reckon all the public stuff about the JonBenet case is about leaving BR out, everything else is in.

.

 

[archieil]

Without an amount, results of tests these pieces of information are near useless.

With children not washing hands correctly and playing in both rooms...
Adding it was winter and smell could last for weeks or months.

It is a nice piece of information for an article to be more popular among all of these RDI intrigues ideas but from case point of view somewhat useless without better checking.

Is there at least any comparative material for them?
Some other case with so scrutinous testing of children rooms? in winter? in their wetting age?

Keep in mind room was closed for many hours before police entered it for a closer inspection. Am I wrong?

 

[UKGuy]

Without an amount, results of tests these pieces of information are near useless.

With children not washing hands correctly and playing in both rooms...
Adding it was winter and smell could last for weeks or months.

It is a nice piece of information for an article to be more popular among all of these RDI intrigues ideas but from case point of view somewhat useless without better checking.

Is there at least any comparative material for them?
Some other case with so scrutinous testing of children rooms? in winter? in their wetting age?

Keep in mind room was closed for many hours before police entered it for a closer inspection. Am I wrong?

archieil,
Nope I reckon you are 100% correct. PDI is the default theory, i.e. it explains stuff, but its not the whole story.

.