The case for murder, #2

[Mr Spock]

Rebecca's dirty feet MOST LIKELY came from outside....no mention of dirt on carpet. This is why I'd like to know from the housekeepers when the courtyard SPRINKLERS went on each week. I can't fathom a scenario where RZ got that much dirt from being cut down because the patio table was on the cement walkway.
There must be crime scene photos of backyard that we haven't seen and Ann Rule didn't publish.

I apologize if I am asking questions that have been answered, but I am not privy to all the information others who have been following the details of the potential crime scene.

Does anyone know if the bed was made in the master bedroom where Rebecca's clothes were found folded? Was there ever any mention of wet towels that Rebecca may have used being found? Was a towel ever taken into possession by LE?

As far as the dirt goes, why wasn't there any footprints in the garage? Were photos ever taken of the garage floor? Why were there footprints in the kitchen yet not in the hanging room? Were the dusty or muddy footprints in the kitchen ever photographed and were they ever tested to see if they match Rebecca's?

 

[Mr Spock]

Rebecca's dirty feet MOST LIKELY came from outside....no mention of dirt on carpet. This is why I'd like to know from the housekeepers when the courtyard SPRINKLERS went on each week. I can't fathom a scenario where RZ got that much dirt from being cut down because the patio table was on the cement walkway.
There must be crime scene photos of backyard that we haven't seen and Ann Rule didn't publish.

I apologize if I am asking questions that have been answered.

Does anyone know if the bed was made in the master bedroom where Rebecca's clothes were found folded? Was there ever any mention of wet towels that Rebecca may have used being found? Was a towel ever taken into possession by LE?

As far as the dirt goes, why wasn't there any footprints in the garage? Were photos ever taken of the garage floor? Why were there footprints in the kitchen yet not in the hanging room? Were the dusty or muddy footprints in the kitchen ever photographed and were they ever tested to see if they match Rebecca's?

 

[cynic]

Do you think she was manually strangled and then hanged? Did she die from the hanging or manual strangulation?

KZ has had some excellent posts on this topic and I’m not certain I can offer much more.
I don’t see anything in the AR that would indicate the type of bruising linked with manual strangulation but its absence doesn’t rule it out.
Fingernail marks are also common and absent here, but they would only be potentially present if the victim was conscious and able to move their hands
A broken hyoid bone, while common in manual strangulation, can be interpreted equivocally here because the furrow line indicates that it was just as likely to be broken as a result of the hanging.
It’s easy to understand how the force of a constricting noose would be able to fracture bones and cartilage beneath it, and if it were to slip, anything in its path.
The injuries that are best explained by a long drop hanging are the injuries to the strap muscles. From the AR:
“The left sternocleidomastoid muscle has a 4-3/4 x 1-3/4 inch area of hemorrhage extending from the clavicle with softening and abundant hemorrhage within the muscle. On the right there is similar hemorrhage measuring 2 x 1-1/4 inch at the clavicle. Along the medial edge of the right sternocleidomastoid muscle, there are a 1 x ¼ inch hemorrhage (inferior, near the clavicle) and a ¼ inch diameter hemorrhage (more superior.)”
This is serious trauma to the left and right SCM muscles, and it indicates that there was a pulling force from above.
As the ligature tightened it would essentially “grip” the upper portion of the SCM (among other things,) then as the body jerked down and away from the ligature there would be a considerable stretch on that muscle group and would likely be the cause of that trauma.
The injuries that would be most readily explained by some sort of pre-hanging manual strangulation would be the fractures below the furrow line and there a number of fractures BELOW the ligature furrow with no indication that the rope was initially lower and slipped upward.
This would mean that some other force was responsible and manual strangulation would be the likely candidate.
The most suspicious injuries in Rz’s neck, IMO are:
“There is a ¼ inch diameter hemorrhage of the left cricothyroid muscle and corresponding purple discoloration of the tracheal mucosa. There is a corresponding left cricoid fracture anteriorly. It is curved, non-displaced, and is situated approximately 1/8 inch from the anterior midline.”

I also find the very extensive nature of the petechiae to be suspicious if it was all as a result of long drop hanging. There should have been more than enough constricting force to close off venous and arterial blood flow to RN’s head instantly. Petechiae are common and plentiful when only venous blood flow is constricted and arterial blood flow to the head continues.
The long drop hanging should have cut venous and arterial flow to RN’s head instantly, preventing congestion and the formation of extensive petechiae.
It has been reported that a tension of 33 lb on the ligature will occlude the trachea, a tension of 4.4 lb will compress the jugular veins, a tension of 8- 10 lb will occlude the carotid arteries and tension of 60 lb will compress the vertebral arteries.
Textbook Of Forensic Medicine And Toxicology: Principles And Practice, Krishan Vij MD, page 161
Compare with:
there would have been 600 pounds of pressure when she hung there…
http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/08/ddhln.01.html

What I don’t see as a likely scenario is one where she was manually strangled and then hoisted up from above. The tearing and hemorrhaging in the strap muscles belie this scenario.

What had perplexed me from the early days of this case is that while some of the injuries are consistent with a long drop hanging it just didn’t make any sense to me, whatsoever, that there were NO INJURIES to posteriorly to the neck structures.
After a spending a great deal of time looking at the force involved in a drop from that height, I realized that the way the rope was attached above would have the potential of moving this away from the realm of a long drop hanging.
I used to do some rock climbing and I do know that even falling in a comfortable harness at the end of rope that is designed to “give” is still something that can be a harsh experience if it involves any significant distance. But, I did know that I would not be injured unless the fall distance caused me to hit something on the way down.
The reason people don’t suffer injury from falls involving bungee cords or climbing ropes is that they are designed to distribute force over time rather than stopping suddenly.
The worst case scenario would be a fall at the end of a wire rope.
RZ was found hanging on the end of a tow rope. These are not designed to be very elastic for obvious reasons and if that rope was attached directly to the railing I would suspect that there would have been horrific injuries to the spinal column.
I now believe that it’s possible that the movement of the 300 pound bed extended the time enough, and absorbed enough energy along with the rope, to account for the fact that RZ did not suffer the posterior neck injuries that would be typical in a long drop hanging.

 

[time]

Just want to say thanks cynic for the lividity and hanging/strangulation explanations.

 

[Serpico]

I apologize if I am asking questions that have been answered.

Does anyone know if the bed was made in the master bedroom where Rebecca's clothes were found folded? Was there ever any mention of wet towels that Rebecca may have used being found? Was a towel ever taken into possession by LE?

As far as the dirt goes, why wasn't there any footprints in the garage? Were photos ever taken of the garage floor? Why were there footprints in the kitchen yet not in the hanging room? Were the dusty or muddy footprints in the kitchen ever photographed and were they ever tested to see if they match Rebecca's?

Answers from what I've learned thus far:
1- don't believe any mention of master bed appearance other than her clothes neatly folded.
2- there was green/white towel with blood spots found in the hallway just outside the bedroom. {Ann Rule's book - page 219}. All bllod results have not be released and Ann Rule mentioned there were some tests not even conducted but didn't specify which items.
3- there were was no mention of footprints in the garage because there were none. The Thompson/Gore Suicide Package had to explain where RZ could've picked up this long towing rope given their theory she acted alone. The garage
was most likely for their charade. Sgt. Nemeth tried to explain the Sept. 2,2011 PC that on the shelf there was something indicated taken from the shelf so he inferred it may have been the Towing Rope.....there were NO pictures of this garage shelf at the PC......such great science - right Gore.
4-there were no RZ footprints mentioned outside the 2nd floor balcony but even that wasn't confirmed via forensic science.....they used words like similar or appeared to be RZ. There were footprints on the downstairs hallway leading to the kitchen which were similar to Adam's when he came into the mansion for the knife to cut RZ down.
===========================================
Footprints - dirty/muddy feet
----------------------------------
We've seen RZ's dirty feet from photos and we've read about Adam's footprints in the hallway leading into the kitchen. This leads to another RED FLAG on Adam's story because if both RZ and Adam had dirty feet....why wasn't DIRT noted atop the patio tabletop?

 

[DeDee]

I'm not sure if anyone can be sure because if you base your assumptions with ME Lucas saying RZ died at 3am and Adam says he cut her down at 6:45am.....personally, I don't believe either one of them. I think she was dead closer to midnight than 3am and where her body was for nearly 7 hours....only Adam knows and possibly others.RZ's feet had to be OUTSIDE the mansion to get those feet that dirty and not track on the carpet inside. The candle that was mentioned outside in the courtyard would seem to indicate someone needed "light" during the dark hours.

Some of the darkness of RZN's apparent dirty feet could be the livor mortis as described in cynic's pic of her discolored feet, ankles and calves. Although I would not characterize her feet as being caked in mud; they do appear to be somewhat soiled considering she allegedly showered recently. I don't think it occurred after AS cut her body down so much as before the hanging, ie, maybe walking to and from the garage for the red suicide rope.

We know the loose ends of the red suicide rope were not taped to keep them from fraying so could the flame from the candle have been used to bond the ends of the rope for the same purpose?

Thanks for the medical and forensic references. I'll just cut to the chase. Are you saying that there *IS* lividity and livor mortis shown in Rebecca's lower legs and therefore she *WAS* indeed hanging when she died? Or are you saying it's a *relative* phenomenon and therefore, the lividity and livor mortis does not indicate with any certainty whether Rebecca was hanging for a long time vs. the fact that her body might have been moved and the lividity and livor mortis then changed due to her altered body positions after she was cut down by Adam and potentially moved by Adam and other EMS/LE/ME personnel?

BBM
Yes, she was indeed hanging when she died. RZN's heart was still beating when her neck muscles tore as evidenced by the hemorrhage in the area. Also, there was lividity present, even though, confusingly enough, Dr. Lucas states he does not recall the status of lividity in her feet since he would not expect to see any lividity in the feet at that time.

"Reporter: And that by the time you got there, you never noticed any lividity in her feet.
Dr. Lucas: I wouldn’t have expected it to be there by the time we got there."

I think fear overtook Rebecca when Rady's Head PICU physician was suspicious of Maxie's cardiac arrest. She did not want to face interrogations by anyone including ex-wives, DS, and her sister, NR, or her sister, MZL, the doctors, the investigators, and most of all JS.

The answer to the riddle painted on the hanging room door is no. RZN believed she saved JS from the unpleasantness of divorce by becoming his confidante. Could JS save her from the demons that were after her following Maxie's injuries? No. Instead she would leave him with a sweet remembrance of once being saved by her. He could not return the favor bc she could not risk facing interrogations by anyone including ex-wives, DS, and her sister, NR, or her sister, MZL, the doctors, the CPD/CPS investigators, and most of all JS.

imoo

 

[DeDee]

Here are a few pics, Lash:
1) from the crime scene
2) similar chair in hanging room from Architectural series pre-Shacknai
3) similar chairs in front middle bedroom w/ bed from ditto source
4) a chair I found on a vintage furniture site that looks like the same design

I've had chairs like this and the paint ended up flaking off like you mentioned. Little bits that would get stuck on pants, bare legs and arms..

In image 4 I've circled 2 areas that "could" have caused the deep indentation and also the parallel markings on RZ's legs. I question once again how long an indentation created prior to death would remain so vividly visible post mortem.

BTW, I may now know why I was finding it so hard to believe that it was actually a comforter. If you take this photo of the overturned chair and place it next to the photo where only a small portion of the chair and the alleged comforter are visible, that would've had to be one tiny comforter. And isn't that a corner of the actual comforter visible still on the bed near the bed post? So what is that on the chair? It might help us figure out if we are in fact looking at a flowery pattern embedded in the fabric or something else? Thanks!

Once a dressing table stool needed to be recovered to coordinate with new bed linens. The stool's cushion was inserted into a coordinating pillowcase with the excess tucked under the cushion.
Earlier upthread, pictured falling out of the wicker chair, is a piece of red fabric covering the chair's cushion and the excess red fabric was initially hidden by being folded and tucked underneath when the chair was upright.

imoo

 

[K_Z]

I think fear overtook Rebecca when Rady's Head PICU physician was suspicious of Maxie's cardiac arrest. She did not want to face interrogations by anyone including ex-wives, DS, and her sister, NR, or her sister, MZL, the doctors, the investigators, and most of all JS.

imoo

Snipped and BBM

Baloney, IMO, that Rebecca was afraid of "interrogations" by doctors or LE. Not a shred of evidence to support that opinion. If she was so "afraid", why did she stick around and play maid and chauffeur to Jonah's friends and his ex-wife and ex SIL?? Surely she would AVOID these people who ALREADY hated her, like Dina and Nina? I don't buy that idea for a single minute.

I am really looking forward to Dr. Brad Peterson being deposed in the Zahau's civil suit about his "only" official statement from July 14, 2011.

I think it's more than a little possible that BP has change his mind about these comments. We don't even know if BP STILL feels the same as he did on July 14, when he made his comments, since a HUGE amount of information is now available that wasn't on July 14, 2011. Even so, the child sustained blunt head trauma from a significant fall-- and we are supposed to accept that BP, an anesthesiologist and pediatric intensivist, had NO IDEA that blunt trauma from a fall of 10+ feet onto a head, producing a 7 1/2 inch sagittal fracture, could cause a prolonged cardiac arrest at the scene?? Really??

I also think it's REALLY interesting that Dina Shacknai didn't use BP when she was looking for experts to write reports validating her (IMO) wild ideas about how Maxie died. Really?? The very person who floated the idea that Max may have been suffocated, and Dina AVOIDED any validation from him?? Really?? Because.....IDK....somehow this was a bad idea to have the one and only doc who actually saw Max and validated her theory, support her quest for reopening Maxie's case??? Color me confused, lol!

A search warrant unsealed on Sept. 22 revealed that the head of the Intensive Care Unit at Rady Children's Hospital, Dr. Bradley Peterson, initially believed his patient, Max Shacknai, may have been suffocated before he fell down the stairs.

The warrant paraphrases a July 14 statement Dr. Peterson gave to Coronado Police Detective Thomas Adkins, while Max was still on life support:


"Based on the description of the incident, surrounding Shacknai's fall, Dr. Peterson did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai. Dr. Peterson expressed concerns made based on the – the above factors, suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai's fall."


In Max's autopsy report, the medical examiner disagreed and determined the boy's injuries were consistent with an accidental neck injury sustained in the fall.

In repeated emails and phone messages, News 8 attempted unsuccessfully to obtain clarification of Dr. Peterson's opinions and statements while Max Shacknai was under his care at Rady Children's Hospital.

Specifically, News 8 emailed two questions to Dr. Peterson:


1) Do you agree with the medical examiner's cause of death for Max Shacknai?

2) During the first two days of Max Shacknai's stay in the hospital (Monday and Tuesday) did you express an opinion to any Shacknai family member that Max's critical injuries may have occurred before he fell down the stairs?


Dr. Peterson forwarded News 8's questions to Rady Children's Hospital attorney Angela Vieira and the hospital's public information officer, Benjamin Metcalf.

Metcalf issued the following written response to News 8 on Oct. 5:


We appreciate your interest, however, I have spoken with both Dr. Peterson and the attorney for Rady Children's and neither wish to make any comment regarding this case.

Thanks,
Ben Metcalf
Public Information Officer | Media Relations

BBM

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15628858/...to-zahau-family-attorney?clienttype=printable

I have to wonder how much BP was actually involved in MS's care in the ICU at Rady. Was he hands-on, involved in writing orders and making decisions about care, or was he just the administrative head of the PICU, interacting with the prominent and wealthy parents of one of the patients? What do other docs & staff who were caring for Max think of BP's comments to Det Adkins? Do they agree, or disagree? BP is only ONE person involved in Max's care, and there were lots of relevant professionals caring for this child.

An awful lot has been hung on the early words of this ONE person, IMO.

I have said that if BP STILL believes that Max was suffocated before he fell, there are MANY avenues that he is OBLIGATED to follow, to ensure that this child's case is investigated properly. I sincerely doubt that he still believes this, at this point in time. But nonetheless, I'd love to read or hear an interview with this crucial witness. I can think of several dozen questions I'd love to hear him answer, to put an end to this speculation that he (and professionally, only he) believed Max was suffocated before he fell.

And if I can think of several dozen questions, I'm sure a good attorney can think of even more questions to ask in a deposition, KWIM?

I am really looking forward to hearing that BP is being deposed in the civil case. There is so much evidence in Max's medical records, and in BP's future deposition, that will clear up questions surrounding Rebecca's death. The whole "BP said this" and it caused Rebecca to kill her herself is really getting old. Even the police didn't say this. I really wonder why some posters just "hang" on this ONE person's comment to Det Adkins? Makes me wonder even more how strongly this may have been a motive to hurt Rebecca, and murder her?


IMO, I'd bet BP and the Rady attorneys really wish he had never said such a thing. And equally, I bet Rady attorneys and BP are pretty happy he has remained silent for 2 years. The potential for him to be called for a deposition in the civil case has to be nerve wracking on a number of levels.

So very interesting that BP keeps being brought up for discussion, eh? Very interesting, IMO.

Another thought.

If BP said this on July 14, 2011 to Det Adkins, and the search warrant was only unsealed on Sept 22, 2011, Rebecca was dead by that time. So how did she find out what BP said to Det Adkins July 14?? She was dead July 13, 2011. Right??

 

[Serpico]

Snipped and BBM

Baloney, IMO, that Rebecca was afraid of "interrogations" by doctors or LE. Not a shred of evidence to support that opinion. If she was so "afraid", why did she stick around and play maid and chauffeur to Jonah's friends and his ex-wife and ex SIL?? Surely she would AVOID these people who ALREADY hated her, like Dina and Nina? I don't buy that idea for a single minute.

I am really looking forward to Dr. Brad Peterson being deposed in the Zahau's civil suit about his "only" official statement from July 14, 2011.

I think it's more than a little possible that BP has change his mind about these comments. We don't even know if BP STILL feels the same as he did on July 14, when he made his comments, since a HUGE amount of information is now available that wasn't on July 14, 2011. Even so, the child sustained blunt head trauma from a significant fall-- and we are supposed to accept that BP, an anesthesiologist and pediatric intensivist, had NO IDEA that blunt trauma from a fall of 10+ feet onto a head, producing a 7 1/2 inch sagittal fracture, could cause a prolonged cardiac arrest at the scene?? Really??

I also think it's REALLY interesting that Dina Shacknai didn't use BP when she was looking for experts to write reports validating her (IMO) wild ideas about how Maxie died. Really?? The very person who floated the idea that Max may have been suffocated, and Dina AVOIDED any validation from him?? Really?? Because.....IDK....somehow this was a bad idea to have the one and only doc who actually saw Max and validated her theory, support her quest for reopening Maxie's case??? Color me confused, lol!



BBM

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15628858/...to-zahau-family-attorney?clienttype=printable

I have to wonder how much BP was actually involved in MS's care in the ICU at Rady. Was he hands-on, involved in writing orders and making decisions about care, or was he just the administrative head of the PICU, interacting with the prominent and wealthy parents of one of the patients? What do other docs & staff who were caring for Max think of BP's comments to Det Adkins? Do they agree, or disagree? BP is only ONE person involved in Max's care, and there were lots of relevant professionals caring for this child.

An awful lot has been hung on the early words of this ONE person, IMO.

I have said that if BP STILL believes that Max was suffocated before he fell, there are MANY avenues that he is OBLIGATED to follow, to ensure that this child's case is investigated properly. I sincerely doubt that he still believes this, at this point in time. But nonetheless, I'd love to read or hear an interview with this crucial witness. I can think of several dozen questions I'd love to hear him answer, to put an end to this speculation that he (and professionally, only he) believed Max was suffocated before he fell.

And if I can think of several dozen questions, I'm sure a good attorney can think of even more questions to ask in a deposition, KWIM?

I am really looking forward to hearing that BP is being deposed in the civil case. There is so much evidence in Max's medical records, and in BP's future deposition, that will clear up questions surrounding Rebecca's death. The whole "BP said this" and it caused Rebecca to kill her herself is really getting old. Even the police didn't say this. I really wonder why some posters just "hang" on this ONE person's comment to Det Adkins? Makes me wonder even more how strongly this may have been a motive to hurt Rebecca, and murder her?


IMO, I'd bet BP and the Rady attorneys really wish he had never said such a thing. And equally, I bet Rady attorneys and BP are pretty happy he has remained silent for 2 years. The potential for him to be called for a deposition in the civil case has to be nerve wracking on a number of levels.

So very interesting that BP keeps being brought up for discussion, eh? Very interesting, IMO.

Another thought.

If BP said this on July 14, 2011 to Det Adkins, and the search warrant was only unsealed on Sept 22, 2011, Rebecca was dead by that time. So how did she find out what BP said to Det Adkins July 14?? She was dead July 13, 2011. Right??

I couldn't agree more and many will say that Dr. BP may be indirectly more responsible for RZ life than anyone because of his irresponsible opinion in the first 24 hours. He should be FIRST UP and 1st question is Tuesday night 7/12/11....where were you between 8:00pm and 1:00am? If you were at Rady between those hours did you have a conversation with Max's parents regarding his present condition? If you weren't at Rady then can you explain Jonah's statement regarding his hearsay voice mail message he left RZ claiming Max's GRAVE condition and soon death?

 

[Serpico]

Suicide Package
------------------
Created by Greg Thompson and William Gore
--------------------------------------------------
1- Dr. Bradley Peterson's SILENCE is understood. The Suicide Package 1st Chapter was
JS hearsay voice message claiming Max's Grave condition. Why JS would CALL RZ at such a late hour is suspicious given that he was scheduled to see RZ the next morning when she
was going to bring him a set of fresh clothes.JS could've TEXT RZ but he didn't for some reason. JS has never said,"I wish I never called and left that message."
2- The Suicide Package based EVERYTHING on the hearsay Grave news message because this was the reason RZ took her life. Why Dr. Peterson has never confirmed JS statement is indeed a legal matter. When did SDSO investigators ask Dr.BP about JS Grave news statement? If Dr.BP refuted JS statement then Thompson/Gore's Suicide Package was knowingly a façade prior to the Sept.2,2011 Press Conference. If Dr.BP claims he did say that to JS then why didn't DS know about it...she was supposedly at Rady between 8:00pm and 1:00am? If Dr. BP didn't see her while discussing Max's present condition at that hour then DS needs to explain her whereabouts.....but why haven't SDSO answered those questions already? Gore has shown a tendency to withhold and "fudge" the truth when evidence tilted toward the HOMICIDE ledger so the mere fact he hasn't spoken of Dr.BP's confirmation of JS statement is a huge RED FLAG.Of course, Gore said DS was spotted on the Rady security tapes at the crucial hours and we know that was a false statement after Ann Bremner received the Rady security tapes and said on her Facebook page that DS was never spotted. Interesting that Thompson/Gore never immediately challenged Bremner with a sworn statement by the nurse on that night shift.... so there's another RED FLAG.

The 2nd Chapter will be titled .....Science Solved This Case with few examples and 20 instances where SCIENCE wasn't used because it appeared tilted toward the HOMICIDE ledger. I call this the Thompson/Gore.... Selective Science Option.

The 3rd Chapter will be the BLOOD RESULTS and what wound up not tested for unknown reasons. This will include if any of the blood was in fact menstrual or not....saying it was without forensic confirmation isn't good enough. I don't know why there is such secrecy from the Thompson/Gore /Jan Caldwell camp with regards to ALL the blood results because when you put a pencil to it....there isn't that much. Let me put down what I've read:
a). blood spot on the shower floor
b).a few blood spots on the green/white towel found in the hallway just outside the bathroom.
c). I believe a few blood spots on the carpet.
d).RZ's body....vaginal vault,dried blood along her perineum -trickling down the inside of her thigh and few drops on her feet/cuts on her fingers.
e).there was NO blood mentioned on the towing rope despite the cuts on her fingers that drew blood.
If some of this was menstrual blood then why wasn't there more blood found or a tampon,etc.

The 4th Chapter will be dedicated to ME Dr.Jonathan Lucas who was instrumental in the "selling" of the Suicide Package.Lets examine his contributions:
1-Lucas stated 24-36 hours after RZ death....estimate Time of Death was between 1:00am -3:00am. Lucas made the definitive time at 3:00am at the 9/2/11 Press Conference to "fit" the suicide timeline established by Thompson/Gore.ME Lucas made no mention of Time of Death in RZ's AR.
2-ME Lucas lightly discussed RZ dirty feet and suggested it was the result of standing on the balcony but made no mention of how many RZ footprints were on the balcony nor was the DIRT tested to see if it came from the balcony or outside below the balcony.Selective science example.
3-ME Lucas said there was no struggle (wicker chair overturned) or assault (cut fingers,blood on body,blood on shower floor,towel,carpet).Of course, if there was evidence of a struggle then ME Lucas "blew up" the Suicide Package because no one else was involved.
4-ME Lucas minimized the many abrasions on RZ's back and at the 9/2/11 PC indicated with photos the two plants/bushes below the balcony. ME Lucas didn't provide any photos of RZ's back nor did he comment that forensic testing indicated some of the abrasions came from this specific plant/bush....there was NO forensic testing on RZ back.I can hear the late attorney Johnny Cochran bellow," if you don't test....the case rests."
5-ME Lucas downplayed the 4 separate hemorrhages on RZ scalp....what else could he do or say? The Thompson/Gore Suicide Package has her alone that night and Lucas already said there was no evidence of a struggle or assault.....ME Lucas would have much trouble on the witness stand in cross examination.

 

[bourne]

The answer to the riddle painted on the hanging room door is no. RZN believed she saved JS from the unpleasantness of divorce by becoming his confidante. Could JS save her from the demons that were after her following Maxie's injuries? No. Instead she would leave him with a sweet remembrance of once being saved by her. He could not return the favor bc she could not risk facing interrogations by anyone including ex-wives, DS, and her sister, NR, or her sister, MZL, the doctors, the CPD/CPS investigators, and most of all JS.

imoo[/COLOR]

BBM. All this sounds like your own projections based on your own biases of how the world works. First it's only your assumption that Rebecca had painted those words on the door. And you've provided no evidence to support that assumption. Second, how do you know this is what Rebecca believed? Can you read her mind? Have you met her? Did you speak with her during that trying time after Max's accident? Do you even know her?

 

[bourne]

KZ has had some excellent posts on this topic and I’m not certain I can offer much more.
I don’t see anything in the AR that would indicate the type of bruising linked with manual strangulation but its absence doesn’t rule it out.
Fingernail marks are also common and absent here, but they would only be potentially present if the victim was conscious and able to move their hands
A broken hyoid bone, while common in manual strangulation, can be interpreted equivocally here because the furrow line indicates that it was just as likely to be broken as a result of the hanging.
It’s easy to understand how the force of a constricting noose would be able to fracture bones and cartilage beneath it, and if it were to slip, anything in its path.
The injuries that are best explained by a long drop hanging are the injuries to the strap muscles. From the AR:
“The left sternocleidomastoid muscle has a 4-3/4 x 1-3/4 inch area of hemorrhage extending from the clavicle with softening and abundant hemorrhage within the muscle. On the right there is similar hemorrhage measuring 2 x 1-1/4 inch at the clavicle. Along the medial edge of the right sternocleidomastoid muscle, there are a 1 x ¼ inch hemorrhage (inferior, near the clavicle) and a ¼ inch diameter hemorrhage (more superior.)”
This is serious trauma to the left and right SCM muscles, and it indicates that there was a pulling force from above.
As the ligature tightened it would essentially “grip” the upper portion of the SCM (among other things,) then as the body jerked down and away from the ligature there would be a considerable stretch on that muscle group and would likely be the cause of that trauma.
The injuries that would be most readily explained by some sort of pre-hanging manual strangulation would be the fractures below the furrow line and there a number of fractures BELOW the ligature furrow with no indication that the rope was initially lower and slipped upward.
This would mean that some other force was responsible and manual strangulation would be the likely candidate.
The most suspicious injuries in Rz’s neck, IMO are:
“There is a ¼ inch diameter hemorrhage of the left cricothyroid muscle and corresponding purple discoloration of the tracheal mucosa. There is a corresponding left cricoid fracture anteriorly. It is curved, non-displaced, and is situated approximately 1/8 inch from the anterior midline.”

I also find the very extensive nature of the petechiae to be suspicious if it was all as a result of long drop hanging. There should have been more than enough constricting force to close off venous and arterial blood flow to RN’s head instantly. Petechiae are common and plentiful when only venous blood flow is constricted and arterial blood flow to the head continues.
The long drop hanging should have cut venous and arterial flow to RN’s head instantly, preventing congestion and the formation of extensive petechiae.
It has been reported that a tension of 33 lb on the ligature will occlude the trachea, a tension of 4.4 lb will compress the jugular veins, a tension of 8- 10 lb will occlude the carotid arteries and tension of 60 lb will compress the vertebral arteries.
Textbook Of Forensic Medicine And Toxicology: Principles And Practice, Krishan Vij MD, page 161
Compare with:
there would have been 600 pounds of pressure when she hung there…
http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/08/ddhln.01.html

What I don’t see as a likely scenario is one where she was manually strangled and then hoisted up from above. The tearing and hemorrhaging in the strap muscles belie this scenario.

What had perplexed me from the early days of this case is that while some of the injuries are consistent with a long drop hanging it just didn’t make any sense to me, whatsoever, that there were NO INJURIES to posteriorly to the neck structures.
After a spending a great deal of time looking at the force involved in a drop from that height, I realized that the way the rope was attached above would have the potential of moving this away from the realm of a long drop hanging.
I used to do some rock climbing and I do know that even falling in a comfortable harness at the end of rope that is designed to “give” is still something that can be a harsh experience if it involves any significant distance. But, I did know that I would not be injured unless the fall distance caused me to hit something on the way down.
The reason people don’t suffer injury from falls involving bungee cords or climbing ropes is that they are designed to distribute force over time rather than stopping suddenly.
The worst case scenario would be a fall at the end of a wire rope.
RZ was found hanging on the end of a tow rope. These are not designed to be very elastic for obvious reasons and if that rope was attached directly to the railing I would suspect that there would have been horrific injuries to the spinal column.
I now believe that it’s possible that the movement of the 300 pound bed extended the time enough, and absorbed enough energy along with the rope, to account for the fact that RZ did not suffer the posterior neck injuries that would be typical in a long drop hanging.

Thanks. I have read KZ's wonderful elucidative posts. I'm of the belief that consensus of scientific minds is needed before reaching a particular conclusion so having your and KZ's (as well as other brilliant posters here) posts are helpful to that goal.

BBM. Based on my own readings of medical literature, I can't tell if Rebecca was strangled first and then hanged. But according to KZ, Rebecca was alive when she was thrown over the balcony railing to her hanging death.

I do not doubt that Rebecca was alive prior to being thrown over balcony because someone in a vindictive frame of mind like Rebecca's murderer(s) would want Rebecca to suffer maximally as they believed that Max had so they would leave Rebecca alive (if barely) so that Rebecca would be terrified and feel the painful physical/emotional torture about her "imminent death" of suffering a hanging death.

Due to the physical similarities between Max falling over an indoor balcony to Rebecca's throw over an outdoor balcony, I believe that Rebecca's hanging death was supposed to simulate Max's fall and the fact that the murderer(s) presumed allegedly from Dr. Peterson's medical opinion that Max "suffocated" before his fall, the murderer(s) likely wanted Rebecca to "suffocate" prior to her hanging death as well. Thus, the murderer(s) constricted Rebecca's neck by winding a t-shirt 3x around it and gagged her with the t-shirt end in order to "smother" and "suffocate" Rebecca just as they believed Max had suffered prior to his fall. All this, in addition to using the t-shirt to gag Rebecca so she couldn't further scream for help. Remember, ear-witnesses from both sides of the Spreckels mansion heard a woman screaming for help shortly after Dina was spotted with a big black bag walking back and forth, acting bizarrely at the Spreckels mansion door.

I see what you mean about the dragged bed being a "shock absorber" that likely prevented Rebecca's posterior neck from being injured. In contrast, had the other end of Rebecca's noose been tied to a vertical, stationary, non-movable object, the long hanging would have injured both her anterior and posterior neck, vs. injury sustained to just her anterior neck when the other end of the noose was tied to a movable bed.

 

[Quester]

RE: “Suffocated”

There is a huge difference between a doctor stating a patient may have suffocated and may have been suffocated. The first could be as a result of body functions ceasing to function properly, or at all, and the second at the hands of another.

Which one did BP state and when, if at all, to MS’ parents?

If stated, which one was heard/interpreted/used as a flame and/or an excuse?

 

[Serpico]

Cynic/ KZ/WS Members - Please explain:

ME Lucas RZ AR
---------------------------
TORSO - ABDOMEN
-----------------------------
On the lateral RIGHT LOWER QUADRANT of the abdomen there is a 1/4 inch pale red abrasion.Just inferior to that is a discontinuos,faint, 1 x 1/8 inch,thin,linear abrasion.

On the LEFT LOWER QUADRANT of the abdomen along the curvature of the left iliac spine there is a 3/8 x 1/4 inch red abrasion.
===================================================
When I read this I instantly think of an attacker's hands/thumbs grabbing BOTH sides of RZ waist to subdue her or during the heinous act of sexual assault/rape. Could the 4 scalp hemorrhages occurred via the bed headboard during this vicious attack?
This wouldn't be appear to be from going over the balcony railing so.........any thoughts.

 

[cynic]

Cynic/ KZ/WS Members - Please explain:

ME Lucas RZ AR
---------------------------
TORSO - ABDOMEN
-----------------------------
On the lateral RIGHT LOWER QUADRANT of the abdomen there is a 1/4 inch pale red abrasion.Just inferior to that is a discontinuos,faint, 1 x 1/8 inch,thin,linear abrasion.

On the LEFT LOWER QUADRANT of the abdomen along the curvature of the left iliac spine there is a 3/8 x 1/4 inch red abrasion.
===================================================
When I read this I instantly think of an attacker's hands/thumbs grabbing BOTH sides of RZ waist to subdue her or during the heinous act of sexual assault/rape. Could the 4 scalp hemorrhages occurred via the bed headboard during this vicious attack?
This wouldn't be appear to be from going over the balcony railing so.........any thoughts.

I often like to measure out the dimensions given in a written report. Try it and see what you think.

Also note the definition of an abrasion:
Abrasion - a skin injury caused by scraping off superficial skin
It can be the result of a scrape, a scratch, or an impact that grazes, rubs, brushes, or glances over the surface of the skin.

I would tend to think that if it was the result of contact with hands that it would more likely be due to fingernails. Of course the plants below the balcony cannot be ruled out.

With respect to the four head injuries, keep in mind that three out of four were lateral, only one is, more or less, on the top of the head.

JMO

 

[Serpico]

I often like to measure out the dimensions given in a written report. Try it and see what you think.

Also note the definition of an abrasion:
Abrasion - a skin injury caused by scraping off superficial skin
It can be the result of a scrape, a scratch, or an impact that grazes, rubs, brushes, or glances over the surface of the skin.

I would tend to think that if it was the result of contact with hands that it would more likely be due to fingernails. Of course the plants below the balcony cannot be ruled out.

With respect to the four head injuries, keep in mind that three out of four were lateral, only one is, more or less, on the top of the head.

JMO

Thanks..... quite interesting. The scalp hemorrhages would suggest the 4 separate blows to the scalp that Dr.Wecht mentioned. The lower left/right quadrant abrasions suggestion of FINGERNAILS.......hmmm.

 

[shefner]

Was the body placed with Rebecca's hips against the rail and then heaved over? Would this account for the abrasions in those areas?

 

[Serpico]

Was the body placed with Rebecca's hips against the rail and then heaved over? Would this account for the abrasions in those areas?

If so, why no abrasions on the torso?

 

[shefner]

If so, why no abrasions on the torso?

Because the person who murdered her placed her hips on the rail....and we know how a woman's hips, especially a very thin woman, are bony and protrude. Those hip bones would have been a resting point against the rail...and the needed center point of gravity to force the body over the rail.
Even so, I can't imagine why the neck didn't snap. Something doesn't add up. Whether murder or suicide, wouldn't the neck snap?

 

[Serpico]

Because the person who murdered her placed her hips on the rail....and we know how a woman's hips, especially a very thin woman, are bony and protrude. Those hip bones would have been a resting point against the rail...and the needed center point of gravity to force the body over the rail.
Even so, I can't imagine why the neck didn't snap. Something doesn't add up. Whether murder or suicide, wouldn't the neck snap?

There are many questions involving the HANGING as it was presented by Adam to SDSO. RZ's hips being placed on the rail.....the footprints or lack of on the balcony would raise questions. I wish we had ALL the abrasion/cut photos.