The case for murder

[Inparadise]

ITA with this. Although I am, as ever, thankful for IP's input. I can't see how it wasn't DRS as the instigator. Haven't we been told that JS is shown on video throughout the times in question (regarding RZ)? So how could have it been him? Expounding on IP's statement I still would love to see those boarding passes. Shouldn't the Z's lawsuit encompass that as well? I've never believed what we've been told about the day that MS was so horribly injured.

We only have Gore's word that JS was at RMH between 1am and 7am........Rebecca was dead long before 1am.......IMO. I don't believe anything that Gore said in that PC or since then for that matter. And until I see the tapes myself, I am highly suspect that it is just another lie.

 

[Bonepile]

I have never believed anything that Gore has said. All 10 investigators did in the months since THAT day was concoct something they thought would satisfy the public and themselves, and unfortunately we will have to wait until one or more of them "retire" to perhaps read through a written recollection a hint at the real truth.

 

[IQuestion]

In criminal cases, the (forensic experts?) expert may also be able to give an opinion as to whether a naked death was a suicide or a murder masquerading as a suicide. Lucas was the ME...who said the cause of death "appeared to be" hanging. So, who was the SDSO forensic expert?? http://www.jaapl.org/content/36/2/240.full (lots of interesting stuff on naked suicide). What I found most interesting was that 95% of the people who complete successful naked suicide had a HISTORY of mental illness! From what I have read and heard from her family...there was no history of mental illness for RZ.
The two most common ways to disguise a murder, is to make the victim's death look like an accident/robbery or make the victim's death look like a suicide. Please read about the Adrienne Shelly murder! (just in case you want quick info9:While initially thought a suicide, police later arrested a construction worker who confessed to murdering Shelly when she caught him robbing her apartment.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

We only have Gore's word that JS was at RMH between 1am and 7am........Rebecca was dead long before 1am.......IMO. I don't believe anything that Gore said in that PC or since then for that matter. And until I see the tapes myself, I am highly suspect that it is just another lie.

I agree. Even if JS is seen on tapes it depends on where and at what times. There could be plenty of time in between to have gone back to the mansion.

Even the time of RZ's death is at question especially with her body being left uncovered for hours and hours in the hot sun. I believe she was dead or incapacitated very soon after she stopped answering her phone or texts.

 

[*Lash*]

Nice to see ya Bonepile!

IP - I greatly respect your opinion, but I can't see anyway given what we know that DRS was not the instigator. :websleuther:

I agree with everything you have stated here.

My theory does not include JS murdering Becky. I believe it was stated in Ann Rule's book that JS had an alibi. I'm not sure how much stock we can put into her book, but in my opinion JS's alibi was reiterated for a reason. I tend to believe JS knows what happened and may be involved in a coverup, but not the actual murder.

I am on the fence in regards to GS and ES. Wouldn't DS know whether the other kids were there? In her most recent public appearance she accuses Becky and XZ. She has never mentioned the two other children. Wouldn't XZ be able to testify to their whereabouts? If so, she is a threat to JS's alleged coverup not just Becky. Since I believe Maxie's death was an accident, what is there to coverup if someone else was involved?

 

[time]

I agree with everything you have stated here.

My theory does not include JS murdering Becky. I believe it was stated in Ann Rule's book that JS had an alibi. I'm not sure how much stock we can put into her book, but in my opinion JS's alibi was reiterated for a reason. I tend to believe JS knows what happened and may be involved in a coverup, but not the actual murder.

I am on the fence in regards to GS and ES. Wouldn't DS know whether the other kids were there? In her most recent public appearance she accuses Becky and XZ. She has never mentioned the two other children. Wouldn't XZ be able to testify to their whereabouts? If so, she is a threat to JS's alleged coverup not just Becky. Since I believe Maxie's death was an accident, what is there to coverup if someone else was involved?

I think the same. I can't see JS had a motive for murdering Becky. I don't think he blamed her, but also (I think I said this before) there wouldn't be a reason to kill her within a day and a half if that was his plan and draw all that publicity to himself and his Coronado mansion. And, even if he had murdered her and tried to make it look like a suicide, it wouldn't look so blantantly like a murder. The scene is just too fussy and bizarre. In fact, it looks more like someone did it this way to make a big statement and not only humiliate Becky but get revenge on the ex.

BBM - Hard to believe Max's death was anything but a horrible accident and if the Shacknai kids were involved, I still can't see Jonah going through all that (murder) just to keep Rebecca quiet. Her murder was after XZ left and was out of reach... so doesn't make sense to leave loose ends so to speak. Again, this does not seem it would be Jonah's style. There would also be no reason to cover that up unless one of the Shacknai kids were responsible (and it was deliberate?). And, there would also be some record of when they traveled and other adults who knew (Kimberly and husband, Jonah, others?) along with the two older kids keeping it a secret.

I just can't see the motive for Jonah to be involved in the murder. For those that think he is, can you outline that? If he didn't want to live with Becky because of Max's death (and dealing with Dina over all that which WOULD be h*ll forever), why wouldn't he wait and quietly off her and make it look like an accident.

I think some of you are saying that Jonah didn't murder Becky, but intentionally got Dina worked up knowing she would do it? And, then he and Adam helped with the clean up? And, that Jonah did this to kill two birds with one stone?

 

[Carioca]

I agree with everything you have stated here.

My theory does not include JS murdering Becky. I believe it was stated in Ann Rule's book that JS had an alibi. I'm not sure how much stock we can put into her book, but in my opinion JS's alibi was reiterated for a reason. I tend to believe JS knows what happened and may be involved in a coverup, but not the actual murder.

I am on the fence in regards to GS and ES. Wouldn't DS know whether the other kids were there? In her most recent public appearance she accuses Becky and XZ. She has never mentioned the two other children. Wouldn't XZ be able to testify to their whereabouts? If so, she is a threat to JS's alleged coverup not just Becky. Since I believe Maxie's death was an accident, what is there to coverup if someone else was involved?

Hi Lash - There is no proof that the teens had already left, just as there is no proof JS was not there. XZ would not necessarily have known what happened if she was upstairs taking a shower in the bathroom adjacent to the "hanging room." Although K_Z made a good case for MS' accident having occurred within the time frame presented, even the CPD report states little information on how long the patient was down.

Both Mary and Dina left the door open as to who was there as per their quotes below from the second Dr Phil program. If XZ knew for sure, then Mary would not question it. In the same vein, if DRS knew for SURE, she also would not question:

MARY:
"… that Max might have been suffocated. As a mother, or someone related to Max, you can assume -- okay -- Rebecca was the caregiver. But the sad part is nobody really investigated what really happened. I mean nobody knows who was in that house."

DINA:
"… Mary said was that XZ did not believe anyone else was there but Rebecca, MS and XZ. She said something? maybe? she wasn't sure. That's all she thought. Maybe we could go back and ask XZ. Does she think anyone else was there? Because that would be helpful. I mean… that's a possibility."

Max's CFD Report (Pre-Hospital Care Report) states:
"Incident was described as unwitnessed. Event occurred just PTA and at an unknown time. .. very limited info given about what happened prior to the call or how long pt was down …apneic with significant facial bruising and fixed pupils."

----------

If indeed JS wanted to cover up the truth about little MS' accident, IMO the last person he would share that with would be DRS. It is also possible XZ does know the truth and is being protected. She did not believe RZ was responsible as per her final text message to RZ after she had already died stating: "It's not your fault!"

Significant facial bruising: am wondering, can that appear within minutes of a fall?

 

[time]

Carioca.... thank you for that post with the quotes. Very interesting.

One thing I said before was that I think it's very possible Dina was serving as the inquisitor of Jonah from the outset and that he did not like it and was possibly vague about what went on that morning or Dina just thought he was not answering her questions. For instance (supporting my theory), Dina may have been asking about who was where and when and Jonah had told her. His version though only involved what he thought he needed to reveal. That probably included where he was at the time, that Becky and XZ were in the house getting ready, the other kids had left, etc. But Dina was insistent on more details that he thought were not her business or there wasn't more to tell. I can see that somebody getting all worked up even with nothing more going on. As the day wore on, she worked herself up and maybe with the help of Nina. Nina comes in and quizzes Becky. Any responses by Becky could have been taken 'as a sign' since they already had a certain mind set. Dina already knew that same day that Max wasn't going to make it (her BF's daughter knew and posted). I think that somebody had been waiting and planning anyway to get back at him anyway she could...maybe to the point of eating away at her since it appears she had possibly been inciting such while they were married, and that behavior went on for several years.

As far as Mary's comments. Only she can say, but I see your theory. Maybe RZ and XZ really didn't know what exactly went on because they were busy and someone else could have been in the house (or they knew someone was/others were). Perhaps they were asked to keep mum if they did know anything, but I'm suspecting Mary's comments are just saying they couldn't possibly have known. If they think ZX knows others were in the house, I'd think the Zahau's would come out with it now or soon?!

 

[Inparadise]

Carioca.... thank you for that post with the quotes. Very interesting.

One thing I said before was that I think it's very possible Dina was serving as the inquisitor of Jonah from the outset and that he did not like it and was possibly vague about what went on that morning or Dina just thought he was not answering her questions. For instance (supporting my theory), Dina may have been asking about who was where and when and Jonah had told her. His version though only involved what he thought he needed to reveal. That probably included where he was at the time, that Becky and XZ were in the house getting ready, the other kids had left, etc. But Dina was insistent on more details that he thought were not her business or there wasn't more to tell. I can see that somebody getting all worked up even with nothing more going on. As the day wore on, she worked herself up and maybe with the help of Nina. Nina comes in and quizzes Becky. Any responses by Becky could have been taken 'as a sign' since they already had a certain mind set. Dina already knew that same day that Max wasn't going to make it (her BF's daughter knew and posted). I think that somebody had been waiting and planning anyway to get back at him anyway she could...maybe to the point of eating away at her since it appears she had possibly been inciting such while they were married, and that behavior went on for several years.

As far as Mary's comments. Only she can say, but I see your theory. Maybe RZ and XZ really didn't know what exactly went on because they were busy and someone else could have been in the house (or they knew someone was/others were). Perhaps they were asked to keep mum if they did know anything, but I'm suspecting Mary's comments are just saying they couldn't possibly have known. If they think ZX knows others were in the house, I'd think the Zahau's would come out with it now or soon?!

Having been in Spreckels, there are plenty of places to hide in the main house and in the guest house as well. It is very possible that one would not know exactly who was there........particularly someone who was not familiar with the layout of the house, like XZ.

 

[IQuestion]

Carioca.... thank you for that post with the quotes. Very interesting.

One thing I said before was that I think it's very possible Dina was serving as the inquisitor of Jonah from the outset and that he did not like it and was possibly vague about what went on that morning or Dina just thought he was not answering her questions. For instance (supporting my theory), Dina may have been asking about who was where and when and Jonah had told her. His version though only involved what he thought he needed to reveal. That probably included where he was at the time, that Becky and XZ were in the house getting ready, the other kids had left, etc. But Dina was insistent on more details that he thought were not her business or there wasn't more to tell. I can see that somebody getting all worked up even with nothing more going on. As the day wore on, she worked herself up and maybe with the help of Nina. Nina comes in and quizzes Becky. Any responses by Becky could have been taken 'as a sign' since they already had a certain mind set. Dina already knew that same day that Max wasn't going to make it (her BF's daughter knew and posted). THANK YOU for reminding all of us! IMO No 14 year old would think to say "in a coma" and will not make it, unless they heard it from an adult. I think that somebody had been waiting and planning anyway to get back at him anyway she could...maybe to the point of eating away at her since it appears she had possibly been inciting such while they were married, and that behavior went on for several years.

As far as Mary's comments. Only she can say, but I see your theory. Maybe RZ and XZ really didn't know what exactly went on because they were busy and someone else could have been in the house (or they knew someone was/others were). Perhaps they were asked to keep mum if they did know anything, but I'm suspecting Mary's comments are just saying they couldn't possibly have known. If they think ZX knows others were in the house, I'd think the Zahau's would come out with it now or soon?!

Hmmm TIME Maybe XZ did tell the detectives there were people in the house when she went to take a shower, but when she came downstairs after hearing RZ scream for her, no one else was around? And, the SDSO detectives didn't question her further. Ya' know "dropping the ball" (disrespect) on this case started with leaving her body exposed for 13 hours, admitted failure to retrieve cell phone info, failure to test evidence in the guest house...and I'll spare y'all the litany of lapses.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

My thoughts on this are still.... that RAGE was involved in the death of RZ. To tie someone up, stuff a t-shirt in their mouth and throw them off a balcony is RAGE. The scene is a convoluted mess because of that rage and then a sudden rush to cover up and make it look like murder. I still feel JS is the most capable and likely one to have flew off the handle and killed RZ when asking her about what exactly happened. He is the closest to her and able to get that close to her while only wearing a t-shirt. I think AS's inconclusive LD test is because he knows who did it and he helped. When AS said he "I Fear" it could have meant he screwed up because he was supposed to remove the bindings and didn't do it the way JS told him to... "set the stage"... it is possible JS had to get back and left AS to set the stage.

I think AR's book.... is a lot of mush... who got to her and provided information that gives JS an alibi?... his high powered PR team.... ? You bet they did.

In my opinion MS's death was a tragic accident there are no secrets here. RZ was killed because she was there when the accident that would certainly killed him occured. NR states in her interview that on Tuesday evening JS and DS were told by the doctor MS would NEVER walk again. Also an LE document states they were aware as early as Monday night that MS was going to eventually die of his injuries. I can only imagine the rage you would have at the person who was entrusted with your son.... and who in the parents mind essentially completely failed him.... as a parent... your son died on her watch.... the most precious thing in your life.

A man like JS is used to ultimate power and control... we know he was violent in other relationships.... it strikes me as extremely likely he wanted answers from RZ that night and flew into a rage killing her. If DS knows that JS did it.... she is very GLAD... her campaign could be to protect JS and continue her extended hatred of RZ. Has she filed a wrongful death suit against JS? If she doesn't she is covering for him for the reasons above.

All my opinion.

 

[coastal]

After all this time has passed I still think that one or more of us on this very Forum have solved this case, and have not agreed with the authorities in doing just that. I am still amazed at our abilities, and our determinations, and every now and then I want to stop by here two years after joining, and thank each one of you for continuing the fight, for continuing the search for continuing the quest for the truth. Thanks!!!!!

((Bonepile!)) I am also grateful for this good company!
My friend doesn't understand why I "do" Websleuths. Life is hard enough, and mean enough, already, that she can't imagine even wanting to hear about a crime that happened to somebody else. That I actually seek information about such things, and then want to discuss some of them -with strangers on the internet- well, it's just weird. Clearly.

I've thought about it. The truth is, when I'm "here", I feel surrounded by bright lights, with huge, loving hearts; by teachers, and sages, and philosophers, and poets...and soccer moms and angels and some broken ones, too. There's comedy sometimes, and drama sometimes, and triumph and tragedy and hope and fear and yes, there's pain, there is always too much pain, and there is ugliness, and injustice, and fear...but also is there is radiant joy. There's hope here, too. Justice shows her beautiful face to us sometimes, and sometimes she can not, but always, and always, love shines here. And I feel bigger here, because of all of you.

Clearly. Weird. But I'm grateful anyway.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

Years ago....I have had experience working with and dating multi-millionaires and Billionaires.... they are a different breed... they are not your average businessman. They think very differently. I think this is partly why RZ's case interests me. I have been in her shoes and quite frankly I am glad I got out.

I think it might be wise to review some murder trials involving these kinds of men.

From my experience, they are very comfortable manipulating and getting around any kind of law or regulation. When it comes to business they are many steps ahead of the average Joe. Generally speaking in business they are masters.

However interpersonal relationships are challenging and they often get tripped up. They certainly do get their hands dirty.

Search Google and read a few stories of Billionaires on trial for murder, drug use, battery and unlawful confinement etc.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Adam did not tell his boss or anyone else where he was going when he flew to Spreckels. I believe he was brought in to cause RZ's death. He also offered RZ an Ambien which would have made his work much easier, but RZ did not take drugs. Also, there is no way that Adam slept through screaming ( heard by neighbors), etc. And, Adam was THERE on the premises.
Dina was seen that night pacing in front of the house and acting erratic. She, too, was THERE on the premises. I think she could have been in on the pre-meditated murder ( though I seriously doubt it), or maybe she
couldn't stand it and flew down in a rage. She might even have been drinking that night which lowers inhibitions ( making it easier to kill and torture and it could explain the erratic behavior in front of the house as reported by the witness)
There were also 2 knives found, etc. Basically, both DS and AS were on the premises around the time of the murder. That's very compelling.
I don't think Dina would have been strong enough to pull it off and I think that chasing RZ and restraining her would have been easier with 2 people.
I also don't think that JS would want to get his hands dirty ( directly).
If I recall correctly, Adam moved into a nicer abode some time after the murder. Hmmmm.
Neither Dina nor Jonah have pointed fingers at the other even though they seemed to hate each other. I believe they are forced into silence because both of their asses are on the line.
You couldn't pay me all the money in the world to be either one of them.
This is all JMO.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

I feel that in the world of JS... RZ.... RUINED and smashed to pieces his perfect looking world..... his son is going to die.... his Asian Princess that he paraded around has caused him huge pain...and shame.... world wide media attention.... in his mind she has made him a failure.... this man with all this money and power can not protect his son..... his prized possession mansion the scene of his son's death at the hands of his Asian Princess....... that mansion was supposed to be another step into the world of big look at me power....and now it was tainted.....the death of MS made JS a tainted failure.... overnight his carefully constructed world was smashed...... that is motive to murder her in a rage.. In My Opinion...

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

Adam did not tell his boss or anyone else where he was going when he flew to Spreckels. I believe he was brought in to cause RZ's death. He also offered RZ an Ambien which would have made his work much easier, but RZ did not take drugs. Also, there is no way that Adam slept through screaming ( heard by neighbors), etc. And, Adam was THERE on the premises.
Dina was seen that night pacing in front of the house and acting erratic. She, too, was THERE on the premises. I think she could have been in on the pre-meditated murder ( though I seriously doubt it), or maybe she
couldn't stand it and flew down in a rage. She might even have been drinking that night which lowers inhibitions ( making it easier to kill and torture and it could explain the erratic behavior in front of the house as reported by the witness)
There were also 2 knives found, etc. Basically, both DS and AS were on the premises around the time of the murder. That's very compelling.
I don't think Dina would have been strong enough to pull it off and I think that chasing RZ and restraining her would have been easier with 2 people.
I also don't think that JS would want to get his hands dirty ( directly).
If I recall correctly, Adam moved into a nicer abode some time after the murder. Hmmmm.
Neither Dina nor Jonah have pointed fingers at the other even though they seemed to hate each other. I believe they are forced into silence because both of their asses are on the line.
You couldn't pay me all the money in the world to be either one of them.
This is all JMO.

I just don't see DS having the physical strength and guts to carry this out.... especially if she is DRUNK. DS would be thrilled to pieces if she knew JS was guilty of killing RZ. She would have something on JS and because of her misguided obsession with JS would protect him and help point the finger at RZ...as the evil one.... that is what she has been doing.....

I think JS has controlled AS all his life and knows easily how to manipulate him. In fact... letting his brother do the lie detector test.... wow.... that could have been payback for screwing up the death scene.... no way would any decent lawyer have allowed that... and now that AS is knee deep in the muck even easier to control him.... and do as big rich brother says or he will certainly land in jail...... JS is the type to be many steps ahead of everyone.... especially his mouse of a brother.

And Gore.... he does not have the balls to take on JS.... sadly in many ways I don't blame him. Gore is simply not made of the stuff that defeats men like JS.

This is my opinion.

 

[Inparadise]

I feel that in the world of JS... RZ.... RUINED and smashed to pieces his perfect looking world..... his son is going to die.... his Asian Princess that he paraded around has caused him huge pain...and shame.... world wide media attention.... in his mind she has made him a failure.... this man with all this money and power can not protect his son..... his prized possession mansion the scene of his son's death at the hands of his Asian Princess....... that mansion was supposed to be another step into the world of big look at me power....and now it was tainted.....the death of MS made JS a tainted failure.... overnight his carefully constructed world was smashed...... that is motive to murder her in a rage.. In My Opinion...

IMO, JS knew that one of his teenaged children was involved in the death of MS, and he knew that Rebecca would eventually come clean, and one or both of them would be in big trouble........and he was not about to let that happen. That is why the Niles family left suddenly, the dog was boarded, XZ was sent home and AS showed up. We know the rest of the story..........

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

IMO, JS knew that one of his teenaged children was involved in the death of MS, and he knew that Rebecca would eventually come clean, and one or both of them would be in big trouble........and he was not about to let that happen. That is why the Niles family left suddenly, the dog was boarded, XZ was sent home and AS showed up. We know the rest of the story..........

RZ, XZ and the dog were immediately considered factors in the accident. RZ was under consideration by CPS! That is why JS never returned to his home to change or sleep on Monday night. I think that if one of the other children were involved information would have slipped out by now. Teenagers can't shut up. The same reason why I don't believe DS or RN are involved the information would have slipped out.

And what about HL I haven't forgotten about him. The last anyone actually saw of RZ she was with those three men. JS, AS and HL all highly suspect.

 

[*Lash*]

Coverup after coverup...maybe I am naive? I believe JS is capable of covering up a crime for the sake of his children, I even believe JS is likely capable of acting in a fit of rage. I don't have enough to believe GS and ES were involved in Maxie's accident. Possible, maybe, but not enough facts. What I do know is it would take a lot of covering up starting with Rebecca all the way to JS's first ex wife. In between would be JS, GS, ES and XZ. A lot of people to keep a secret. If I am to believe JS is covering up for his children, then I have to question what he is covering up? If it was an accident then why the need to coverup? JS did not know the medical facts at the time he allegedly rushed his children off. Maxie may have survived and woke up to tell the story of what really happened including who was involved, if anyone. The coverup story would have been blown. I understand some believe Maxie's accident may have happened much sooner that morning and there was a delay in reporting. XZ would have been in bed, so she may not have witnessed something that happened earlier. However, wasn't Max with Rebecca when she woke XZ up for the day? Didn't the two of them wake XZ up together? A lot of covering up that includes children and I haven't even started on the coverup involved in Becky's death. When I see the actual plane tickets that show the other children leaving later than earlier maybe that would change my opinion?

 

[Inparadise]

Coverup after coverup...maybe I am naive? I believe JS is capable of covering up a crime for the sake of his children, I even believe JS is likely capable of acting in a fit of rage. I don't have enough to believe GS and ES were involved in Maxie's accident. Possible, maybe, but not enough facts. What I do know is it would take a lot of covering up starting with Rebecca all the way to JS's first ex wife. In between would be JS, GS, ES and XZ. A lot of people to keep a secret. If I am to believe JS is covering up for his children, then I have to question what he is covering up? If it was an accident then why the need to coverup? JS did not know the medical facts at the time he allegedly rushed his children off. Maxie may have survived and woke up to tell the story of what really happened including who was involved, if anyone. The coverup story would have been blown. I understand some believe Maxie's accident may have happened much sooner that morning and there was a delay in reporting. XZ would have been in bed, so she may not have witnessed something that happened earlier. However, wasn't Max with Rebecca when she woke XZ up for the day? Didn't the two of them wake XZ up together? A lot of covering up that includes children and I haven't even started on the coverup involved in Becky's death. When I see the actual plane tickets that show the other children leaving later than earlier maybe that would change my opinion?

If JS were truthful about what happened to MS, then DS would sue the pants off him, and he knew that.........he would (and has in the past) throw anyone except his kids under the bus for self-preservation. If DS were to sue him for everything, the lifestyle that he so loves would be over, and trust me, he knew/knows that and it is not a place that he is willing to go..........