The case for murder

[STS-135]

Wow, you honestly think there were TONS of mistakes made by the murderer(s) in this case? If so, and you honestly think this was indeed a murder, then why did LE and ME rule it a "suicide"?

If this "murder" masquerading as a "suicide' is not the work of someone obviously smart and cunning, and manipulatively deceptive, then you are underestimating Dina.

I believe that the only reason why DS and/or AS were not thrown in jail within days, if not hours, was due to sheer incompetence on the part of the LE involved. In other words, IMHO, the killer(s) just got lucky. Plain and simple. Been there. Lived it. Same organization. 20-plus years earlier (and I'm being purposefully vague about the year only to avoid complications). A self-respecting LE organization would've reached an entirely different conclusion - or at a minimum kept both cases open - Rebecca's and my Father's.


And, no, I don't think that I am underestimating Dina at all. In fact, the only other scenario I've considered (prior to reading about Ambient in the book and then Serpico's post immediately thereafter), is that Dina might have acted alone. She could have tried to pin it on AS by using a rat-tail stopper knot on the bindings knowing that he was a tug boat captain, conducting the *advertiser censored* searches that she could've known her ex-husband's brother was likely to do, etc. It'd impress and surprise me greatly if it proved to be true!

BTW, I also don't recall having ever stated that there is absolutely no way that this (and perhaps even my Father's) could not be just as LE stated, suicide. The though has crossed my mind, repeatedly. Because in both cases there is also a degree of uncertainty as to how exactly some of the evidence should be interpreted. In other words, without a mind meld, how could any of us ever honestly believe that we know our loved ones 100%. So, yes, at least some of the evidence could also point just as easily to a suicide. But more on that later.

 

[IQuestion]

I beg to differ. Although she is obviously no rocket scientist, Dina seems way too smart and cunning to have made so many easily avoidable mistakes had she conspired and/or planned to murder Rebecca. IMHO she sneaked into the house impulsively when RZ failed to come to the front door. It would seemingly also explain a lot of things if Rebecca didn't answer the door because she was in the shower at the time.

JS, on the other hand, could've probably been a rocket scientist if he had wanted to be one; and, if he too had conspired to kill Rebecca, he would have certainly still retained enough of his wits during the though time he was going through to have done it without attracting so much attention.

Also, if Jonah in fact assisted with the cover up after the fact, then the only sufficiently strong motivation to assist that I can think of would've been to avoid attracting even more attention to Maxie's case. In other words, he would've (also) had to know a lot more about how Max died.

No way, no how, that Jonah would've risked throwing it all away only to keep his brother and/or Nina out of jail. They are expendable. If he in fact assisted after the case, it would only make sense if he did it only to protect himself in Maxie's case, or his children as some believe.

As tempting as it is to believe that JS's substantial influence and money played a significant role during either or even both investigations; I lean heavily to no more than outright incompetence and even negligence on the part of LE. (Your cue. Wink! Wink!)[/QUOTE]

Hmmm, I think that CUE is for me:
Michael Crowe, 14, suffered an emotional breakdown during his two marathon interrogations, which were videotaped. Detectives lied to him about the evidence, saying his sister’s blood was found in his room and she was clutching his hair in her fingers. (Lying to suspects is legal.) http://www.kpbs.org/news/2011/oct/21/7-million-settlement-reached-stephanie-crowe-murde/ "It took nearly four more years for Escondido police to relinquish the investigation to the County Sheriff’s Department and for the San Diego District Attorney's office to turn it over to the state Attorney General."In the above case neighbors had TWICE made 911 calls about a suspicious man peering in windows, claiming he was looking for a girl, on the same night! In RZ's death 2 neighbors reported to police they heard a woman screaming for help.
In the Crowe case, 2 detectives incredulously did everything in their power to build a case for murder against 3 young teens and ignored everyone and everything.....even failing to test evidence. No one "stood up to these misguided detectives" (who never, never admitted fault, btw) and the 3 young teens were incarcerated for more than 6 months!

 

[Serpico]

This is weird, really, really, really weird... Anne Rule's book arrived yesterday. I just returned to my office from a long break during which I read the first five chapters. I just couldn't put it down - until it was time to leave! Anyhow, I actually had to put the book down for a while as soon as I read that section on p. 188. It hit me like a brick, because it reminded me of something that happened to my wife of 30 years while she was taking Ambien several years ago...

One night she suddenly opened her eyes and got up. Moments earlier she was fast asleep. I can tell when she's fast asleep because of that peaceful, very faint snore she still denies doing! Anyway, she got up and headed straight for the kitchen and spent a few minutes there. Neither one knows what she did while she was there, if anything. Then she returned to bed. And, as she climbed into bed, started arguing loudly with me without any readily apparent reason. Not that we never argueed in bed before, but we were just fine earlier that evening. So her incoherent and rambling attacks, while sounding vaguely familiar insofar as to the changing nature of the various issues she might've been referring to, made absolutely no sense within the context of that evening.

I kept trying to interrupt her, to ask her what was going on, but to no avail. Finally, I just assumed that it must the TV still being ON that late at night, or perhaps just too loud, and I turned it OFF. She turned to one side and fell asleep again, literally. Just like that. Awake and visibly angry one moment. Fast asleep the next.

The next morning I was still upset and brought it up. But she couldn't remember any of it. None. I didn't believe her at first, but it was such a silly incident anyway that I just dropped it. She, on the other hand, was (she later admitted) bothered enough by it to remember to ask our PCP several weeks later if Ambien could affect memory somehow. Our Doctor switched her to another med without much of an explanation.

Much later we heard something about Ambien, it might've been regarding the Ambien defense case. I don't really remember how we first heard about it. But we have no doubt that whatever happened that night was Ambien-induced. OMG, you may have just cracked the case wide-open. Something definitely worthwhile exploring further.

On the other hand, as the born-skeptic that I am, how do we know that he was not just trying to build an Ambien defense too if he was charged with her murder? When did the Ambien case take place, before or after Rebecca's? And who could've given him that way out if perhaps not the same person who was already busy getting him an attorney? What I mean is, would most people say that they had taken Ambien the night before, or a sleeping pill?

Here are my ADAM AMBIEN CLUES
=================================
With limited info available thus far.....
---------------------------------------------------------------
#1 - Ann Rule's book Pages 178-179......Chief Scanlon a little after 8:00 am in the Mobile Unit said to Adam,"this must be traumatic for you, Officer Klein will
stay here with you." Adam didn't respond initiaaly, then blurted out,"this is f'ing
crazy. I don't think my bedside manner is that bad -" Geez....this after a supposed good long sleep the night before.
#2- 911 call had several puzzling moments....."are you still alive" to RZ's limp body is hard to forget.
#3- 911 call - mentions he just took GAG out of her mouth AFTER he supposedly cut RZ down and begins CPR.....this is about 4-5 minutes AFTER first spotting RZ.He could've easily just reached up and took the GAG out of her mouth when he first saw her given his conservative height at 5"10" and his reach overhead vs RZ's inches from the concrete walkway.
#4- how did his shoes get wet /dirty to leave shoeprints leading into the kitchen and not leave any shoeprints atop the patio table?
#5-if IQUESTION is correct on where the Screams came from......why wasn't
Adam's name mentioned instead of HELP - HELP in RZ's hysterical frenzy.
#6 - Adam is the MOST experienced and prolific rope knot configurator of all the other "persons of interest" and the victim as well.
#7-Adam was the only person KNOWN to be inside the 1043 Ocean St. property that night/morning.
#8 - Adam DID NOT pass his polygraph.

 

[Betty P]

Dina in a rage fueled assault on a woman she already despised (possibly with alcohol or drugs involved). It makes sense because of the parallels between the two deaths and lots of other stuff. We already know Dina had a propensity toward violent disputes. She lost her heir to the fortune also.

I agree, though AS and the Ambien is a good theory and may yet tie in somewhere, DR's involvement comes down to the message on the door. AS would not have thought to write something like that, IMO. While he may have been upset by MS's death and felt RZ might have been negligent, he wouldn't have that level of fury and revenge towards RZ bottled up inside.

The staging of the crime scene also required some thought and at least a minimal amount of planning, not something someone in an Ambien trance would do. Again, IMO, because I don't have any first hand experience with Ambien, nor do I know anyone who has taken it.

ETA: I do think AS was involved somehow, though it could be that, because of the Ambien, he didn't clearly recall exactly what happened that night.

 

[STS-135]

Hmmm, I think that CUE is for me:
Michael Crowe, 14, suffered an emotional breakdown during his two marathon interrogations, which were videotaped. Detectives lied to him about the evidence, saying his sister’s blood was found in his room and she was clutching his hair in her fingers. (Lying to suspects is legal.) http://www.kpbs.org/news/2011/oct/21/7-million-settlement-reached-stephanie-crowe-murde/ "It took nearly four more years for Escondido police to relinquish the investigation to the County Sheriff’s Department and for the San Diego District Attorney's office to turn it over to the state Attorney General."In the above case neighbors had TWICE made 911 calls about a suspicious man peering in windows, claiming he was looking for a girl, on the same night! In RZ's death 2 neighbors reported to police they heard a woman screaming for help.
In the Crowe case, 2 detectives incredulously did everything in their power to build a case for murder against 3 young teens and ignored everyone and everything.....even failing to test evidence. No one "stood up to these misguided detectives" (who never, never admitted fault, btw) and the 3 young teens were incarcerated for more than 6 months!

"Incompetence on steroids" indeed... :floorlaugh:

 

[*Lash*]

Hmmm, I think that CUE is for me:
Michael Crowe, 14, suffered an emotional breakdown during his two marathon interrogations, which were videotaped. Detectives lied to him about the evidence, saying his sister’s blood was found in his room and she was clutching his hair in her fingers. (Lying to suspects is legal.) http://www.kpbs.org/news/2011/oct/21/7-million-settlement-reached-stephanie-crowe-murde/ "It took nearly four more years for Escondido police to relinquish the investigation to the County Sheriff’s Department and for the San Diego District Attorney's office to turn it over to the state Attorney General."In the above case neighbors had TWICE made 911 calls about a suspicious man peering in windows, claiming he was looking for a girl, on the same night! In RZ's death 2 neighbors reported to police they heard a woman screaming for help.
In the Crowe case, 2 detectives incredulously did everything in their power to build a case for murder against 3 young teens and ignored everyone and everything.....even failing to test evidence. No one "stood up to these misguided detectives" (who never, never admitted fault, btw) and the 3 young teens were incarcerated for more than 6 months!

Thank you for this good example of confirmation bias. I tend to believe this played a role in Rebecca's investigation including the ME ruling her manner of death a suicide. Heck, I see the same tendency in the actual murder. Unbelievable these officers did not take the word of the two neighbors regarding the transient. I see the same in Rebecca's case with the neighbors who heard the screams and the witness who had seen Dina at the mansion. It simply did not support their developing theory. In Rebecca's case LE selectively chose to believe it was Nina the witness had seen otherwise this info would have challenged their suicide theory.

 

[*Lash*]

I am in between Bourne's and STS-135's theories. The painting on the door is the very reason I sit right in the middle of premeditation and an interrogation gone wrong. We know the paint receipt LE found did not match the paint or brushes used at the scene of the murder. The type of paint used to write on the door was not the paint Rebecca used in her art. However, it doesn't mean she didn't have this type of paint in her collection. The writing on the door is sadistic and taunting. In my opinion, it is not the thinking of a person ridden with guilt from an accidental murder. The message borders on gloating and of someone being proud of what they had accomplished.

 

[Zoot]

I can't recall if it was discussed before - do we know where the knives found at the scene came from? Are they knives from the mansion's kitchen? or, just with the rope, nobody knows where exactly they came from?
If that's the case, then it is another hole in suicide theory in my opinion - why Rebecca would go shopping for the rope AND knives, if there were knives in the kitchen readily available for her?

 

[bourne]

I am in between Bourne's and STS-135's theories. The painting on the door is the very reason I sit right in the middle of premeditation and an interrogation gone wrong. We know the paint receipt LE found did not match the paint or brushes used at the scene of the murder. The type of paint used to write on the door was not the paint Rebecca used in her art. However, it doesn't mean she didn't have this type of paint in her collection. The writing on the door is sadistic and taunting. In my opinion, it is not the thinking of a person ridden with guilt from an accidental murder. The message borders on gloating and of someone being proud of what they had accomplished.

Either the murder was premeditated or it wasn't. There's no in-betweens. Either Dina came to the Spreckels mansion that night to murder Rebecca or she came to only interrogate.

The question is, would a reasonable person believe that Dina, in a sudden fit of rage, upon interrogating Rebecca, suddenly come up with a meticulously elaborate, detailed, step-by-step, torture/assault/hanging off a balcony scenario that so closely matches the falling off indoor balcony scenario of Dina's one and only son Max's?

I'd say if someone can find evidence such as receipts to purchases of the paint and brushes, knives, ropes, gloves, and other murder tools, then this question would be easily resolved. Because if these items were purchased by Dina BEFORE she entered the Spreckels mansion, well, doggone-it, she premeditated the murder of Becky. I would go so far as to say, if Dina COLLECTED these items even within the confines of the Spreckels mansion that it is still premeditated murder because one has to have reasonable FORETHOUGHT to even think up of amassing these items in order to torture/interrogate and then murder Rebecca.

Legal definition of premeditation:
"premeditation n. planning, plotting or deliberating before doing something. Premeditation is an element in first degree murder and shows intent to commit that crime. (See: malice aforethought, murder, first degree murder)"

Copyright © 1981-2005 by Gerald N. Hill and Kathleen T. Hill. All Right reserved.

 

[time]

Either the murder was premeditated or it wasn't. There's no in-betweens. Either Dina came to the Spreckels mansion that night to murder Rebecca or she came to only interrogate.

I don't think it is always quite this simple. Although I do not think Dina went with any idea to simply interrogate Rebecca, she could have gone with all kinds of thoughts, working herself into a rage. After getting there, she could have physically assaulted her and knew then there was no way out... that could be when the planning began.

We have a pretty wide time period Anywhere from ~ 10 pm -3am. Too bad they didn't peg down time of death, but all of this could be why the crime scene clues don't add up. Rebecca could have been basically unconscious or tied up while further plans were made. After being physically assaulted, if she were left alive, somebody was going to jail or prison.

I'm not saying this is the scenario I would stand by, just that it's possible.

It doesn't take much to have premeditated murder.

One thing for sure, that message on the door doesn't speak to anyone writing it but Dina. And, was she careless, arrogant, or just plain ragefull when she wrote it. Or did she make Rebecca do it.

 

[K_Z]

Thank you for this good example of confirmation bias. I tend to believe this played a role in Rebecca's investigation including the ME ruling her manner of death a suicide. Heck, I see the same tendency in the actual murder. Unbelievable these officers did not take the word of the two neighbors regarding the transient. I see the same in Rebecca's case with the neighbors who heard the screams and the witness who had seen Dina at the mansion. It simply did not support their developing theory. In Rebecca's case LE selectively chose to believe it was Nina the witness had seen otherwise this info would have challenged their suicide theory.

Completely agree with confirmation bias being the explanation for the "inept" handling of the scene and investigation. The grotesque display of Rebecca's nude and dead body for 13+ hours, without proper "tenting", is another example of confirmation bias, IMO. Even unknown homicides get a faster response from the ME's office, and more proper scene care from LE, than did the long term live in girlfriend of a very wealthy resident in this tony neighborhood. There has never been a satisfactory explanation from the ME's office as to why it took 13+ hours to send someone out. There has never been a satisfactory explanation why LE let her lay exposed to gawkers and news helicopters, and failed to properly secure the scene. The whole way that was handled smacks of "she got what she had coming" AND/ OR racist/ gender bias (nude, bound, attractive, dead Asian woman who cannot cover herself or get away).

IMO, there was a very contagious "groupthink" confirmation bias going on that continued to gain momentum in the hours, days, and weeks of the investigation. For whatever was the original stimulus for the confirmation bias, there was no way that Rebecca's death was going to be properly investigated as a homicide, and the main suspects held accountable. IMO, LE went thru the motions just enough to justify their foregone conclusion, and get the case closed and off their desk as soon as possible. I don't think the actions of LE and the ME were simply inept or incompetent-- IMO, this was definitely a case of groupthink (with racist overtones) and confirmation bias. Rebecca was treated as if she was a non-person, and disposable, not deserving of respect in her death. I think that has to be one of the most painful aspects of this whole ordeal for Rebecca's loved ones.

 

[bourne]

I don't think it is always quite this simple. Although I do not think Dina went with any idea to simply interrogate Rebecca, she could have gone with all kinds of thoughts, working herself into a rage. After getting there, she could have physically assaulted her and knew then there was no way out... that could be when the planning began.

We have a pretty wide time period Anywhere from ~ 10 pm -3am. Too bad they didn't peg down time of death, but all of this could be why the crime scene clues don't add up. Rebecca could have been basically unconscious or tied up while further plans were made. After being physically assaulted, if she were left alive, somebody was going to jail or prison.

I'm not saying this is the scenario I would stand by, just that it's possible.

It doesn't take much to have premeditated murder.

One thing for sure, that message on the door doesn't speak to anyone writing it but Dina. And, was she careless, arrogant, or just plain ragefull when she wrote it. Or did she make Rebecca do it.

BBM. And I'm going solely by the legal definition of premeditation. If Dina is ever indicted for homicide, this is a clear case of murder one -- with premeditation and malice forethought. I don't see any "accidental" assaults or "accidental" murder here. The murder was premeditated and clearly deliberate by Dina with the intent to harm, kill and humiliate Rebecca.

 

[time]

BBM. And I'm going solely by the legal definition of premeditation. If Dina is ever indicted for homicide, this is a clear case of murder one -- with premeditation and malice forethought. I don't see any "accidental" assaults or "accidental" murder here. The murder was premeditated and clearly deliberate by Dina with the intent to harm, kill and humiliate Rebecca.

Oh, I agree with that. Even with what I said, it doesn't matter why she claims she went to the house. There had to be some period of time where planning took place, to me. I suspect, as you do, that they should have looked for receipts and they should have tracked Dina's whereabouts all day Mon and Tues, especially Tues.

 

[K_Z]

I am in between Bourne's and STS-135's theories. The painting on the door is the very reason I sit right in the middle of premeditation and an interrogation gone wrong. We know the paint receipt LE found did not match the paint or brushes used at the scene of the murder. The type of paint used to write on the door was not the paint Rebecca used in her art. However, it doesn't mean she didn't have this type of paint in her collection. The writing on the door is sadistic and taunting. In my opinion, it is not the thinking of a person ridden with guilt from an accidental murder. The message borders on gloating and of someone being proud of what they had accomplished.

BBM. I don't think it was an interrogation gone wrong; I think it was an interrogation that proceeded exactly as the murderer premeditated it. A torture session for the sadistic satisfaction of the murderer, ending in a murder that the victim knew was going to happen.

There is no question in my mind that the torture session and the murder were both premeditated, and that a woman who deeply hated Rebecca was delighted and satisfied to finally carry it out. This is "woman to woman" hate, IMO, "not man to woman" hate. This murder scene has the tone of a vindictive woman literally written all over it, IMO.

I especially believe that because Rebecca was NOT sexually assaulted as part of her murder. The nudity wasn't about an interrupted sex assault-- it was about humiliation and degradation by another woman, IMO. If a man had orchestrated this murder, IMO, sex assault would have been perpetrated as an additional expression of power and humiliation. (I know maybe some don't agree with that.)

And I have always viewed the message on the door as gloating and sarcastic. Definitely aimed at Jonah, IMO.

 

[Zinn]

I don't think it is always quite this simple. Although I do not think Dina went with any idea to simply interrogate Rebecca, she could have gone with all kinds of thoughts, working herself into a rage. After getting there, she could have physically assaulted her and knew then there was no way out... that could be when the planning began.

We have a pretty wide time period Anywhere from ~ 10 pm -3am. Too bad they didn't peg down time of death, but all of this could be why the crime scene clues don't add up. Rebecca could have been basically unconscious or tied up while further plans were made. After being physically assaulted, if she were left alive, somebody was going to jail or prison.

I'm not saying this is the scenario I would stand by, just that it's possible.

It doesn't take much to have premeditated murder.

One thing for sure, that message on the door doesn't speak to anyone writing it but Dina. And, was she careless, arrogant, or just plain ragefull when she wrote it. Or did she make Rebecca do it.

BBM

I'll go with arrogant, enraged, sadistic, and lacking in impulse control.

JMO.

 

[time]

BBM

I'll go with arrogant, enraged, sadistic, and lacking in impulse control.

JMO.

Yeah, I could agree with all of that.

 

[Betty P]

I can't recall if it was discussed before - do we know where the knives found at the scene came from? Are they knives from the mansion's kitchen? or, just with the rope, nobody knows where exactly they came from?
If that's the case, then it is another hole in suicide theory in my opinion - why Rebecca would go shopping for the rope AND knives, if there were knives in the kitchen readily available for her?

Yes, both knives were confirmed as coming from the mansion kitchen. The rope is still questionable. They only stated there was a space on a shelf in the garage where it could have been stored.

 

[coastal]

Yes, both knives were confirmed as coming from the mansion kitchen. The rope is still questionable. They only stated there was a space on a shelf in the garage where it could have been stored.

Also, Jonah did own a boat when Rebecca died. FWIW.

 

[Cherry]

Has anyone been able to verify any Asian link to those knots? I really nd this investigated.

 

[K_Z]

Also, Jonah did own a boat when Rebecca died. FWIW.

And the obituary for Dina and Nina's father discussed his lifelong love of boating, and how much he enjoyed that with his daughters. Dina, Nina, and Adam all have a long history of familiarity with boats and nautical knots.