The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[BoldBear]

Didn't the Ramsey house have any doors?

I'm long beyond arguing that an entry/exit point was the train room window. There were 6 ground level doors. The person had access to the 1st floor and the basement for hours. Smit was an very smart investigator and promoted the window well entry so we've been arguing about his theory forever. This is Mr. IDI himself promoting the window well theory because he needed some evidence he could point to.

The issue is not one detail regarding the Ramseys. It's a very long and dry list. Dr Phil made some over sweeping generalities. This was actually what the Ramseys wanted to say to the world. His program promoted...well...his program was not to promote IDI, but to make the claim that RDI is stupid. In this case, the IDI theory is simply a way of saying, "The Ramseys could have never done this." It is not, however, an attempt to go after anyone who may have actually committed the crime.

Many cases are built on circumstantial evidence. You're not pointing at evidence either. You're just trying to create a shadow of a doubt. Honestly, if you have any evidence of an intruder, bring it to the table--persuade me.

And this is all my opinion, of course.

 

[BoldBear]

IDI seems confused lately. The year started with them pointing fingers at Helgoth again. Then BR thinks it wad a pedo. Then comes JR saying it was someone punishing HIM. As crazy as it sounds I think JR developed some sort of MSBP after the crime. It is all about Him Him Him
Now they are back to pointing at the maid and Santa.

John relates to Job. "And like Job, Ramsey was destined for great affliction, as many of the most precious things in his life were cruelly taken from him." -- Taken from the blurb on Amazon for his book.

 

[ElleElle]

Question:

What is this mark on her hand?

 

[Ambitioned]

Question:

What is this mark on her hand?

A heart, theoretically to help her remember to use the toilet. Patsy said she had no idea who drew the "heart" or when it was drawn on JB's hand. She confessed in this series of interviews at the end of one long day that she had seen the "well drawn heart" the morning JB was found. Oops. By the next morning of the interviews she backpedaled quickly.

 

[Brendon]

Okay, you are attacking people's response to the evidence, but where is your counter evidence? Attacking an opinion isn't evidence either. Look at the evidence, then come back with your theory of the crime.

My guess about what happened? From the limited information:

Someone they know. Someone who secretly had a strong dislike for John and Patsy personally.
The ransom note. It's dripping with barely concealed contempt for the both of them.

Someone who might have had got hold of a key. Someone who knew the house.
Explains how they they got about, and got out. And how they were aware they were safe to write the ransom note.

Someone with a vivid imagination. And someone who has good writing skill, but loses it under stress. I know a few people that make errors when angry or upset. Perhaps the note was written to hide their identity after the child was unintentionally killed when they tried to subdue her to keep her quiet. Now the plans to kidnap have gone awry.
How I read the ransom note. Claiming the spelling errors were on purpose is a convoluted way of looking at it. But calling themselves a "foreign faction" does sound like a diversion.

They were amateurs who thought they had everything planned, but callous disconnected types. And like most of these unsolved cases they had a truck load of dumb luck to get away with it.
They even cleaned the batteries in the torch and no fingerprints. Yes, on balance I think it was the murder weapon. They even used the Ramseys' stationary to write the ransom note. That is clever and planned. But the note was not what they initially intended to write, because now JonBenet was dead. So now the ransom note was a bluff to buy time and misdirect. (PS Now even if you think the Ramseys did it, there is a large element of dumb luck involved in them getting away with it - if you think they did it.)

They had stayed at the house. Probably overnight. They knew the feel of the place in the night to feel confident enough to stay and write the ransom note and then sneak out through some door.

 

[ThinkHard]

My apologies for kind of "re-posting" this, but it's my theory du jour that I initially dashed off on the fly. I've re-written to clarify, and I would really like to hear if it can be debunked:

At some later point after eating a piece or two of pineapple, JB and BR got into an altercation and BR hit JB on the head with the heavy flashlight. Unlike any previous times he had hit her, she went down and didn't move. At age 9, he may or may not have understood she was unconscious. Whatever he thought was going on, he most likely was scared of her waking up screaming and crying which would bring one or both his parents downstairs and he'd get in trouble for hitting her.

So he got hold of her by the back of her nightshirt and tried to drag her (because he couldn't lift her). This could have been (1) from the kitchen downstairs to the basement (if the altercation happened in the kitchen), or (2) from one place in the basement to another (ending up in the "wine cellar"). His reason would be to hide her until she woke up.

Trying to drag her by the nightshirt was not working too well (but it caused the triangular red mark on front of her neck). So he got the cording and put it around her neck in a slipknot (typical knot a kid would use for just about anything) and tried to drag her that way, but the cording kept slipping through his hands.

So he wrapped the other end of the cording around the piece of paintbrush handle to make a "grip" for his hands. [Or it's possible the cord with paintbrush grip was already lying around in the basement, having been made and used for something else.] He was then able to drag her body (including possibly down the stairs) to a place where his parents wouldn't immediately see her. The effect of this dragging tightened the cord around her neck and effectively strangled her although he was not aware of that.

He waited around a while for her to wake up. Possibly he engaged in some sexual curiosity -- she was asleep and wouldn't know .... He poked her a couple of times with the train track trying to wake her up, but that didn't work. So he got a blanket and put over her, either to try to kind of keep her warm or possibly to help hide her in case the parents looked.

And went upstairs to bed because he didn't know what else to do. Scared to go wake up his parents because whatever was wrong with her was his fault since he hit her. And he probably stayed in bed, scared stiff, when all heck broke loose, until whatever point he finally came downstairs. At some point shortly thereafter, he confessed to his parents about hitting her and then hiding her, and they came up with their plan for the ransom note and whatnot to try to protect him.

I thought his behavior during the Dr Phil interview/s was clearly nervous, but what struck me was that his smiling was "appeasing", like a dog that tore up the living room while you were gone and knows it's in trouble but doesn't really understand why. I don't think he meant to kill his sister -- I do think he hit her out of an in-the-moment rage reaction and had no idea what he'd done or that his following efforts to move and hide her ended up effectively sealing the issue and killing her (although the blow would have apparently resulted in her death anyway).

Her body had abrasions on the back consistent with having been dragged, and any of the adults could have/would likely have picked her up and carried her rather than drag her.

How many of the actual elements of JB's death does this satisfy?

Why would a nine year old boy, trying to move his unconscious sisters body try to drag her by the neck, rather then by the more obvious choice of just pulling her by the arms?

I don't think it makes much sense that any kid would think tying something around somebodies neck and pulling them by it, was a bad idea.

 

[leelee114]

From the previous thread which I can't quote directly

Brendon wrote:

I meant there was no blood on her head that would cause alarm and make the parents think she was seriously injured or dead. She would have looked as if she lost consciousness if they came upon her after she had been hit. In which case, the mother most probably A) Calls 911 B) Puts a cord around her daughter and chokes her to death with force.

I'll let you figure that one out.

Another point. By 5pm the Ramseys were still in the presense of others. According to what you believe, that would include them being awake for nearly 40 hours. Do you have any knowledge about police or other witnesses saying they were falling asleep in front of them, or were being incoherent, or appearing drugged or drunk. Try staying up for 40 hours and tape yourself talking to people for a length of time.

Another point. You believe Burke did it, or you believe Burke knows who did. A nine year old is a loose cannon, right? Could say anything to anybody, right? The Ramseys must have kept their 9 year old son close yeah? No. They sent young Burke to a neighbors to keep him away from the horrible situation. Like loving people, not like people who had something to hide.

People that knew and had come across Dennis Rader seemed normal enough until the world learned he was BTK? But people did come forward to say he was a most unsavory type of a person after he was caught. Look it up.

Why is it that the the tiny window in the basement is the only way you think an intruder could get in and out of the place. They had many visitors and guests to that home. Quite a few people knew the layout. John Ramsey broke into that window because he lost his key to the front door. There's a clue for you.

There are monsters who walk amongst us, who we would not recognize as they do look normal. But they come out at night with pitchforks and fire and going on witchhunts and victimising people who don't "look right" etc. If the authorities can't find find a suitable target for them, then they point the finger at the first available victim and hold it there, no matter what. Ask Lindy Chamberlain.

--------------
My response
-She would not have just looked unconscious.Judging by the severity of her injury she very likely would have appeared dead as her respiration and breathing would have been very shallow. In addition Patsy informs us that the attire JonBenét was found in was the same attire she put her to bed in minus the huge panties.We also know that JB's WHITE longjohns (which served as pajama bottoms) had no significant blood stains (just urine)yet we know she was bleeding. If she had been wearing them when discovered the bleeding would be fairly apparent. Since we know they had no blood this opens up the door for JB being discovered after the head bash with no longjohns and bloody thighs. Coming upon a scene like that would be quite disturbing if you knew your son caused it.

-What on Earth are you referring to when you reference me believing they were up for 40 hours? And exactly what does that have to do with anything I said? If you are perhaps attempting to excuse the nonsensical lies John and Patsy spewed in the police interviews many posters have quoted I suggest you look up those transcripts and check the dates.

-I sincerely doubt a normal loving family who believed they had their daughter snatched out of their own home in the middle of the night by people threatening to behead her would let their remaining child out of there sight.They would be terrified something would happen to him too. If things got so out of hand in the house that they feared their child becoming upset then they would remove him with the stipulation that he had police protection. I find nothing loving and normal about their desire to get him out of the house. Nor is there any reason to believe he would be a loose cannon. Certain types of children can be very savvy in these situations.

-I don't need to look anything up about Dennis Rader because I am very familiar with how unpleasant many people found him to be. However no one ever truly thought he was a psychopathic serial killer. No one knew just how evil he was. He had a job,a wife, a family, and he hid his true self and even stopped killing for a long period of time.

-I'm going with the window because that is what John Ramsay and his cronies have long pushed as the method of entry despite crime scene photos showing no one had been through it recently. Also I know John broke into that window in the past and I know how he couldn't keep his lies straight about it. Of course method of entry of an intruder is toally pointless in my book as I don't believe there was one.

-You wrote,"There are monsters who walk amongst us, who we would not recognize as they do look normal. But they come out at night with pitchforks and fire and going on witchhunts and victimising people who don't "look right" etc"

I just want to congratulate you on that. What a perfect description you have given for the behavior of John,Patsy,and Lin Wood during their many smear campaigns against everyone from a sickly Santa to some of their best friends.

 

[Madge_Ick_Dike]

Burke isn't just any kid...

 

[ThinkHard]

wow. So posters on ffj were right when saying there is somehing else in the bowl with the pineapple. Now we know it was milk and it was Jb who liked it that way. - Madeleine

Ya, been looking at that white bowl for years.

I know I brought this up on the previous thread but wanted to carry it over here and maybe delve into it a little more.

PR said Burke didn't really like pineapple and liked chocolate if he was going to have a late night snack. JBR on the other hand loved pineapples and milk (seems like such a weird combo), both Butke and Patsy say this about JBR in their interviews.

Patsy says she didn't dish out that pineapple and the spoon isn't right. Also I remember hearing that the pineapple in her stomach was partially green in JBR's stomach.

Green is usually on the outside. Patsy was a detail person and a perfectionist. If she cut that pineapple in guessing she would have been carefully to cut off the outside....so between perhaps sloppy knife skills with the pineapple and the too large spoon....it makes me think this was a kid prepared snack.

If BR wasn't a huge fan of said snack, who did he make it for? Could he have made it for JBR? Maybe that's how he got her downstairs? Maybe you wanted to play and the pineapple was bribery.

If he did prepare JBR that snack and he did so to lure her downstairs that night (not to kill her per se but maybe to play "Doctor"), perhaps this could explain his reaction to the picture of that bowl. Not so much that the fight was started over the pineapple .... But he knew that bowl was evidence of JBR being downstairs that night and it being him that got her there with that very bowl.

In other words the bowl could be the first trigger in the whole chain of memories of what occurred that night.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Bringing this over from the other thread.

If there's any legal eagles reading, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it true that once someone chooses to talk to media they become a public figure whether they want the status of being a public figure or not?

His intent doesn't matter. He chose to be interviewed by a media figure on a show that is broadcast around the world.

All this does is change his status relative to a defamation claim. Example, if I hear a rumor from a trusted friend that my neighbor John Smith is a child molester and I post on our neighborhood association's closed web page that people need to watch out for John, and one of my other neighbors reads it and tells John's employer's who fires him from his job at the Y teaching kids to swim, John can sue me for defamation of character and include his lost earnings as part of his damages along with the damage to his reputation in the community. If my attorney can prove that the story is true, John's case gets tossed because the ultimate defense to any defamation claim is the truth. If on the other hand, I cannot prove it's the truth even if I really believed it to be true when I posted the warning, I could have some problems.

The difference with Burke, and Lin Wood seems to be acknowledging this, is that a public figure like Burke has to prove that CBS lied with with intentional malice to harm him. This is different from me carelessly citing a rumor that hurt a non-public figure and caused him harm in the community. And the truth is still the ultimate defense to any defamation claim. So the truth about the murder would be the focus of any discovery.

Arguably, Burke was a limited public figure before he went public just by virtue of the fact that his name has been over the news and web for 20 years. And there have been many vocal BDI arguments long before Kolar (who wasn't sued for his book which basically said Burke did albeit in slightly veiled terms). But his public figure status is clear now. Burden is on him to put on a case that shows actual malice on the part of CBS and the participants. And CBS gets to delve into the "truth" about the matter via discovery and it's defense.

It's a little more complicated than this, but these are the basics.

 

[ElleElle]

Oh, and I'd be interested in evidence that ties any of the Ramseys to the actual killing. She wasn't killed with a notepad, or a piece of pineapple, either. So try not to include them. And the lawyer didn't kill her. So getting lawyered up isn't evidence, either. Neither are cobwebs. Or not looking right.

The evidence speaks for itself when there are only 4 people in that house that night. There is no evidence there was an intruder. The lies, and all the items were from that household.

Who else besides the R's would of known of the random ransom amount of $118k? It's like a jigsaw puzzle, it may be circumstantial, but all the pieces fall into place, and I don't believe we were "tricked".

 

[ThinkHard]

There is some evidence that might point toward the Ramseys. The ransom note needs explaining, for instance. Why they did not wake up when JB was taken from her bedroom (how close is her room to her parents?). Who's idea was it to ring the police since the ransom note specifically said not to under threat of death for JB.

But there is nothing connecting them to her killing - except theories - with next to no evidence.

I have already asked how it was that the parents stayed up for nearly 40 hours and no-one mentioned their condition at that time. People who think they did it, just don't want to look at these inconvenient flaws in telling the story. John and Patsy would have been paranoid Burke Ramsey would say something. Yet they sent him to a neighbors in the morning. Doesn't follow. Doesn't make sense. Having the narrow window as the only entry and exit. Why? Didn't the Ramsey house have any doors? This is ignored. The pineapple. I couldn't make out the picture on it's own. Looked like apples or pear pieces to me. Burke was looking intently at that pic trying to figure it out, not avoiding it. Burke was not with us watching the show prior to seeing the pic having it all explained to him by the forensics people. Like we were. Get it? We were manipulated as viewers. We were set up on that. Remember the woman said he was suspicious about it, and why did he avoid saying it was THE PINEAPPLES. Straight after we had it all explained to us. If I were him, I wouldn't have clearly known what the pic was either. They were dishonestly tricking the viewer. jmo

Just stuff like that.

1.) of course it's possible the parents could stay up for 40 hours or longer whether they were guilty or not. Finding your daughters dead body, either at the hands of an intruder or your own child would be a high stress situation no matter how you slice it. When people are in high stress situation they are often running on pure adrenaline and sleep is literally the last thing on their mind. Also how people behave in said situations is highly subjective so that day, even if the parents seemed odd, I think it would be highly understandable since they were experience extreme grief, even if they were involved in a cover up.

2.) The parents know Burke a lot better then we do, and they knew the whites new Burke well too. They could have easily sent him over with instruction not to talk about it, and given the Whites clear instruction not to ask. If the whites already knew Burke was odd, they'd be less inclined to think anything he did that day was odd, and I think the Ramsey's trusted even if they did, they could keep the whites silent. As far as we know at some point both families stopped speaking and we don't know over what....so it's entirely possible the whites had heard or seen things that raised red flags. Regardless when it came to that morning, I think they felt it was better to have Burke as far away from the house and police observing him as possible. I think in their minds the Whites were felt to be in their inner circle and would support their island of secrecy.

3.) regarding the pineapple picture.....Burke had seen that identical snack served to his sister on countless occasions, it also was t a random bowl of pineapple. It was his kitchen, his table, his bowl ...... All those memory trigger cues right there. There is absolutely no way he didn't know what it was in that bowl. If you just watch his body language it's obvious he has a moment of recognition and connecting the dots as he lets out an "oh" followed by evasive play dumb answers and lots of squeezing his own arm and practically sitting on his own hands. That's not a kid who's frustrated because he can't discern a pineapple from an apple from a pear......that's a kid who just realized he's being asked about things he's not suppose to talk about and not suppose to know....and now he's trying to stay calm and keep the story going....but he actually would rather jump out of his own skin.

 

[No it's not]

I am bringing this over from the first thread:

This is BR's bathroom:

There are 2 soda cans (coca cola?) in the sink:

Who did BR have in his room? JBR is said to have sometimes gone over to BR's room, after waking up with a wet accident and changing her outfit. She would lay down in the second twin bed in BR's room. Did she go over to BR and had a soda with him? Who got the soda, both? BR? JBR? Did they decide to go back into the kitchen after having some soda? Why then making a glass of tea, after having a soda? It makes no sense to me. Were they just left from the previous day? But then BR could not have brushed his teeth for the night or the next morning.

Again, what's the story here? Any idea?

-Nin

 

[ThinkHard]

Oh, and I'd be interested in evidence that ties any of the Ramseys to the actual killing. She wasn't killed with a notepad, or a piece of pineapple, either. So try not to include them. And the lawyer didn't kill her. So getting lawyered up isn't evidence, either. Neither are cobwebs. Or not looking right.

I get the feeling you didn't watch the entire CBS docu seris or the Dr Phil show.

what about the flashlight that matched JBR,s injury perfectly, the one the Ramsey's have changed there story on both owning and moving numerous times. The one that was completely wiped down and had zero prints on it.

Or you could look at the fact that someone took the time to change JBR soiled undies......do you really think an intruder would do that? Or someone who Loveland cared for her?

 

[ElleElle]

My guess about what happened? From the limited information:

Someone they know. Someone who secretly had a strong dislike for John and Patsy personally.
The ransom note. It's dripping with barely concealed contempt for the both of them.

Someone who might have had got hold of a key. Someone who knew the house.
Explains how they they got about, and got out. And how they were aware they were safe to write the ransom note.

Someone with a vivid imagination. And someone who has good writing skill, but loses it under stress. I know a few people that make errors when angry or upset. Perhaps the note was written to hide their identity after the child was unintentionally killed when they tried to subdue her to keep her quiet. Now the plans to kidnap have gone awry.
How I read the ransom note. Claiming the spelling errors were on purpose is a convoluted way of looking at it. But calling themselves a "foreign faction" does sound like a diversion.

They were amateurs who thought they had everything planned, but callous disconnected types. And like most of these unsolved cases they had a truck load of dumb luck to get away with it.
They even cleaned the batteries in the torch and no fingerprints. Yes, on balance I think it was the murder weapon. They even used the Ramseys' stationary to write the ransom note. That is clever and planned. But the note was not what they initially intended to write, because now JonBenet was dead. So now the ransom note was a bluff to buy time and misdirect. (PS Now even if you think the Ramseys did it, there is a large element of dumb luck involved in them getting away with it - if you think they did it.)

They had stayed at the house. Probably overnight. They knew the feel of the place in the night to feel confident enough to stay and write the ransom note and then sneak out through some door.

Ok ....

1. Why did they leave her in the cellar? And, not just kidnap her as they stated?
2. Why do this heinous crime on Xmas day night?
3. Why not kill the whole family?
4. Why spend all the that time in the house with the risk of getting caught?
5. And why are you are saying "they"? Do you believe there more than one intruder?

 

[ThinkHard]

A heart, theoretically to help her remember to use the toilet. Patsy said she had no idea who drew the "heart" or when it was drawn on JB's hand. She confessed in this series of interviews at the end of one long day that she had seen the "well drawn heart" the morning JB was found. Oops. By the next morning of the interviews she backpedaled quickly.

I can't tell if perhaps some of the marking are marker.....but it's definetly not ALL marker. There is for sure bruising on that hand.

And the bottom curve of the supposed "heart" looks like it was drawn with such force that it actually scratch her skin.

If it's said that heart was drawn I'll assume investigators know this because it was tested or came off easily with soap and water...but just looking at that picture it really doesn't look like someone drew on her hand at all, it looks like and injury.

 

[Luckymanuh]

Advocate4-- I really have to side with you about her being dragged. I never considered that. But I think JBR ran down in the basement to hide and she was killed down there and maybe dragged, like you said to the room where the found her. It would explain the double ring mark on neck of like the rope being placed in two places.
But it would make more sense if it truly was BR on the inaudible part of the 911 call at the end saying "what did you find?". And what sounds like PR saying "what did you do?"
Maybe PR and JR just staged the RN. Only God and they know for sure. IMHO

 

[ThinkHard]

My guess about what happened? From the limited information:

Someone they know. Someone who secretly had a strong dislike for John and Patsy personally.
The ransom note. It's dripping with barely concealed contempt for the both of them.

Someone who might have had got hold of a key. Someone who knew the house.
Explains how they they got about, and got out. And how they were aware they were safe to write the ransom note.

Someone with a vivid imagination. And someone who has good writing skill, but loses it under stress. I know a few people that make errors when angry or upset. Perhaps the note was written to hide their identity after the child was unintentionally killed when they tried to subdue her to keep her quiet. Now the plans to kidnap have gone awry.
How I read the ransom note. Claiming the spelling errors were on purpose is a convoluted way of looking at it. But calling themselves a "foreign faction" does sound like a diversion.

They were amateurs who thought they had everything planned, but callous disconnected types. And like most of these unsolved cases they had a truck load of dumb luck to get away with it.
They even cleaned the batteries in the torch and no fingerprints. Yes, on balance I think it was the murder weapon. They even used the Ramseys' stationary to write the ransom note. That is clever and planned. But the note was not what they initially intended to write, because now JonBenet was dead. So now the ransom note was a bluff to buy time and misdirect. (PS Now even if you think the Ramseys did it, there is a large element of dumb luck involved in them getting away with it - if you think they did it.)

They had stayed at the house. Probably overnight. They knew the feel of the place in the night to feel confident enough to stay and write the ransom note and then sneak out through some door.

So you think some foreign faction planned to kidnap JBR, but waited till they got in the house and only after they killed her to write the ransoms note?

How does that make sense? If they had gotten into the house while the Ramsey's were still at the Whites.....giving them time to write the note, then Jon benet wouldn't be dead yet.....so they still leave the same note even though the foreign faction already knows she's dead?

If they planned to kidnap her, wouldn't you think getting in the house, grabbing her, dropping the note and getting out ASAP would be the most logical plan.

So how then is there so much time btw the head injury and the garrote? How and when does the pineapple get in her stomach? Who changes her clothes?

If you did just try to kidnap someone, I'd doubt you'd wait till you had them to write the random note, I'd think you'd have that all ready. But we know the note was written inside the home. I can't really imagine the perp accidental killing her, hiding her body, then going upstairs to spend 45 minutes on a ransom note before getting out of dodge. That just seems highly impractical.

Given BR's history, his apparent apathy in regards to this case both back then and now...the fact no other ran some note has ever been close to as long, nor in a ransom situation have bodies EVER been left behind......the most likely deduction is that BR did it, and his parents through shame and guilt put all their efforts to protecting their one remaining child.....as it would have been Patsy's only was for redeeming herself for failing both JBR and BR up to that point.

 

[Brendon]

From the previous thread which I can't quote directly


-What on Earth are you referring to when you reference me believing they were up for 40 hours? And exactly what does that have to do with anything I said? If you are perhaps attempting to excuse the nonsensical lies John and Patsy spewed in the police interviews many posters have quoted I suggest you look up those transcripts and check the dates.

(snipped for focus)

My apologies. I thought you believed the Ramseys did it somehow.

What with all the thorough battery cleaning, ransom note writing and dictating, strangling their daughter, etc, there would be too little time and too much adrenalin pumping around to get any sleep that night. Which follows that from about 7.00am one day, to about 7.00pm the next day, that is a whopping 36 hours of absolute horror. I would have thought someone would have noticed the effects of exhaustion in both John and Patsy (inability to focus, nodding off, looking drunk or drugged, incoherent), at one point at least.

The absence of any record of this not a minor issue. As traumatized as these people were, they acted like they had at least some sleep in the previous 40 hours - in front of various witnesses.

 

[ThinkHard]

From the previous thread which I can't quote directly

Brendon wrote:

I meant there was no blood on her head that would cause alarm and make the parents think she was seriously injured or dead. She would have looked as if she lost consciousness if they came upon her after she had been hit. In which case, the mother most probably A) Calls 911 B) Puts a cord around her daughter and chokes her to death with force.

I'll let you figure that one out.

Another point. By 5pm the Ramseys were still in the presense of others. According to what you believe, that would include them being awake for nearly 40 hours. Do you have any knowledge about police or other witnesses saying they were falling asleep in front of them, or were being incoherent, or appearing drugged or drunk. Try staying up for 40 hours and tape yourself talking to people for a length of time.

Another point. You believe Burke did it, or you believe Burke knows who did. A nine year old is a loose cannon, right? Could say anything to anybody, right? The Ramseys must have kept their 9 year old son close yeah? No. They sent young Burke to a neighbors to keep him away from the horrible situation. Like loving people, not like people who had something to hide.

People that knew and had come across Dennis Rader seemed normal enough until the world learned he was BTK? But people did come forward to say he was a most unsavory type of a person after he was caught. Look it up.

Why is it that the the tiny window in the basement is the only way you think an intruder could get in and out of the place. They had many visitors and guests to that home. Quite a few people knew the layout. John Ramsey broke into that window because he lost his key to the front door. There's a clue for you.

There are monsters who walk amongst us, who we would not recognize as they do look normal. But they come out at night with pitchforks and fire and going on witchhunts and victimising people who don't "look right" etc. If the authorities can't find find a suitable target for them, then they point the finger at the first available victim and hold it there, no matter what. Ask Lindy Chamberlain.

--------------
My response
-She would not have just looked unconscious.Judging by the severity of her injury she very likely would have appeared dead as her respiration and breathing would have been very shallow. In addition Patsy informs us that the attire JonBenét was found in was the same attire she put her to bed in minus the huge panties.We also know that JB's WHITE longjohns (which served as pajama bottoms) had no significant blood stains (just urine)yet we know she was bleeding. If she had been wearing them when discovered the bleeding would be fairly apparent. Since we know they had no blood this opens up the door for JB being discovered after the head bash with no longjohns and bloody thighs. Coming upon a scene like that would be quite disturbing if you knew your son caused it.

-What on Earth are you referring to when you reference me believing they were up for 40 hours? And exactly what does that have to do with anything I said? If you are perhaps attempting to excuse the nonsensical lies John and Patsy spewed in the police interviews many posters have quoted I suggest you look up those transcripts and check the dates.

-I sincerely doubt a normal loving family who believed they had their daughter snatched out of their own home in the middle of the night by people threatening to behead her would let their remaining child out of there sight.They would be terrified something would happen to him too. If things got so out of hand in the house that they feared their child becoming upset then they would remove him with the stipulation that he had police protection. I find nothing loving and normal about their desire to get him out of the house. Nor is there any reason to believe he would be a loose cannon. Certain types of children can be very savvy in these situations.

-I don't need to look anything up about Dennis Rader because I am very familiar with how unpleasant many people found him to be. However no one ever truly thought he was a psychopathic serial killer. No one knew just how evil he was. He had a job,a wife, a family, and he hid his true self and even stopped killing for a long period of time.

-I'm going with the window because that is what John Ramsay and his cronies have long pushed as the method of entry despite crime scene photos showing no one had been through it recently. Also I know John broke into that window in the past and I know how he couldn't keep his lies straight about it. Of course method of entry of an intruder is toally pointless in my book as I don't believe there was one.

-You wrote,"There are monsters who walk amongst us, who we would not recognize as they do look normal. But they come out at night with pitchforks and fire and going on witchhunts and victimising people who don't "look right" etc"

I just want to congratulate you on that. What a perfect description you have given for the behavior of John,Patsy,and Lin Wood during their many smear campaigns against everyone from a sickly Santa to some of their best friends.

I think the fact that JR admitted to getting into his own home through that window very telling.....I've had to "break into" my own home once or twice.....and I know those access points (because I had done it myself) would be first to come to mind if I had to think about how someone could have gotten into my house at night. When I had to get into my own house, I also remember be aware to try to choose one of the access points out of view of neighbors because I didn't want someone to call the cops on me.

I just think IF you were going to stage a crime, and had to put the pieces together....and you got to the "how'd they get in and out part" .... The first place you'd think of would be a place you have used to get into your own house before when you had no key.

So what do you do? You crack the window and make it look like that's the acces point.

One thought that had occurred to me....regarding that window.....because some leaves were moved off the grate and what not.....could they have had someone in the family come through that window as part of the staging....someone small and slender who may have been able to slip in without disturbing that cobweb?