The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[ThinkHard]

The CBS special was biased also. I'm not saying that they didn't have valid points but every single person on the CBS special had staked a claim for years. Obviously, they weren't objective. As with this case, it's hard to find anyone objective.

What is biased about reducing facts to the people with the greatest means, and then following through by examining who has the most motive?

 

[Detective Pinkie]

Thank you PositiveLight for the transcripts. Once again I am struck by what Spitz said about the "sexual assault". I still take it to mean that there wasn't even staging of one and that the piece of wood was most likely transfer as was the blood in the underwear. So if this is true where did the blood come from? It was obviously JB's blood so where is the open wound that the blood was transferred from?


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[ThinkHard]

I am actually in the PDI camp. Yes, the children ate pineapple, wandered to unwrap the presents in the basement; but it is PR who took the flashlight to the basement, and I don't know if she accidently or in a rage, hit JBR. or if she threw the flashlight not intending to hit anyone. Perhaps JDI or BDI. PR is the one who has a series of events to be enraged about - bedwetting, children not in bed, children got into the pineapple, children unwrapped the already wrapped presents for the Lake House - all in the middle of the night. If BR was such a violent deviant, then why was JBR not afraid of him (often slept in his room, played with him, etc.)?

Why was she not afraid of him?......are you familiar with the dynamics of abusive relationships? There is a reason why it's so hard for women to get out of abusive situations.....there us shame in it, and moments that are good, and manipulation, and confusion....it's complicated.

 

[Advocate4]

What is biased about reducing facts to the people with the greatest means, and then following through by examining who has the most motive?

... not to mention, the most opportunity.

 

[ukrberserker23]

The real question I am wondering about is where did BR learn about sex? I know nowadays they have sex Ed classes in grade school. But in 1996, there was no internet *advertiser censored* to learn from. I doubt he figured it out from playing doctor with JBR. Someone had to show him. Wonder who that was?

 

[Heymom]

Thank you PositiveLight for the transcripts. Once again I am struck by what Spitz said about the "sexual assault". I still take it to mean that there wasn't even staging of one and that the piece of wood was most likely transfer as was the blood in the underwear. So if this is true where did the blood come from? It was obviously JB's blood so where is the open wound that the blood was transferred from?


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This part of the show surprised and distressed me. Spitz and Lee absolutely dismissed the sexual aspects and I do wonder if this was a legal problem - either they agreed with Wood not to touch that, or the CBS lawyers advised them "not to go there, buddy." A paint chip is not going to be transferred into her vagina, I don't care what size it was! They changed the subject so quickly I was momentarily stunned! The autopsy clearly showed vaginal damage, both prior to and during that night, so why did they skim over/dismiss that evidence? Still very puzzling.

 

[TTF14]

The real question I am wondering about is where did BR learn about sex? I know nowadays they have sex Ed classes in grade school. But in 1996, there was no internet *advertiser censored* to learn from. I doubt he figured it out from playing doctor with JBR. Someone had to show him. Wonder who that was?

How are we sure he knew about sex?

 

[Heymom]

Why was she not afraid of him?......are you familiar with the dynamics of abusive relationships? There is a reason why it's so hard for women to get out of abusive situations.....there us shame in it, and moments that are good, and manipulation, and confusion....it's complicated.

Maybe she WAS afraid of him, and that is one reason the GJ indicted her parents for not protecting her. They had talked to 30 people, some with intimate knowledge of both Burke and JonBenet, and they believed that there was evidence to convict JR and PR of negligence to the extent that their daughter was eventually killed.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I'm watching Law and Order: SVU and I would not be surprised if this show or another fictional crime show does an episode based on this case this season. It will be based on the BDI theory, and it might even take place years after the crime.

This is the episode SVU aired in October 2006, two months after JMK was arrested:

A man confesses to murdering a young beauty queen, but his story doesn't add up. But the investigation into how the confessor received confidential details of the crime could lead Goren and Eames to the real killer.

They even had the young beauty queen on their show murdered on Halloween, instead of Christmas.

 

[TeaTime]

How are we sure he knew about sex?

I will take a hint from the books found in the house "Sexually Aggressive Children" and "Why Can't Johnny Tell Right From Wrong?" (actual titles may be a little different)

 

[ukrberserker23]

The blood that was wiped off her thigh. She was penetrated by someone too small to break her hymen. Could have been a long finger, I guess. That would indicate one of the parents. Much easier to see two kids having sex games down in the basement by flashlight.

 

[FrankieB]

I will take a hint from the books found in the house "Sexually Aggressive Children" and "Why Can't Johnny Tell Right From Wrong?" (actual titles may be a little different)

A little? There's no mention of any "sexually aggressive children" book in the house. They were The hurried child and Why Johnny...and they are not about sex. Do not spread misinformation.

 

[TTF14]

The blood that was wiped off her thigh. She was penetrated by someone too small to break her hymen. Could have been a long finger, I guess. That would indicate one of the parents. Much easier to see two kids having sex games down in the basement by flashlight.

I'm not a medical examiner, but I would think if the blood on her thighs was from her vagina, blood would have been found inside her vagina as well. Was it?

 

[PositiveLight]

You're welcome! Well, I took it to mean there wasn't a true sexual assault. Meaning that it wasn't a pedophile or that the injuries to her vaginal canal was only to make it look like no one in the family could have done it. (How could a family member do something like that? for example) That it was only a red herring and meant to distract the LE from who actually caused her death. In the autopsy report http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf

"The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch in maximum dimension."
"On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semi-fluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule. inside the vestibule of the vagina, and along the distal vaginal wall is reddish hyperemia. This hyperemia is circumferential and perhaps more noticeable on the right side and posteriorly. The hyperemia also appears to extend just inside the vaginal orifice. A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1x1 cm hymenal orifice. The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and the 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen. On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violet discoloration measuring approximately 1 inch by 3/8ths of an inch. Incision into the underlying subcutaneous tissue discloses no hemorrhage. A minimal amount of semi-liquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault. No recent or or remote anal or other perineal trauma is identified."
"The bladder is contracted and contains no urine."
The autopsy is very interesting to read. I think the wound they describe is what caused the blood. IMOO

 

[ukrberserker23]

I'm not a medical examiner, but I would think if the blood on her thighs was from her vagina, blood would have been found inside her vagina as well. Was it?

Don't remember. It was in the autopsy report I read years ago. I've been away from this forum for a couple years because of my own domestic problems. I think it on the candy rose website.

 

[ThinkHard]

Maybe she WAS afraid of him, and that is one reason the GJ indicted her parents for not protecting her. They had talked to 30 people, some with intimate knowledge of both Burke and JonBenet, and they believed that there was evidence to convict JR and PR of negligence to the extent that their daughter was eventually killed.

I never said she wasn't afraid if him. Just because she was afraid of him though doesn't mean she didn't play with him. My point was abusive relationships have a complicated psychological dynamic no matter the ages of either party. She could have had many string emotions in regards to Burke, fear being only one of them.

 

[Tricia]

The closest you will ever see a human being's head exploding.

Lin Wood does a Skype interview with Law Newz.com

http://lawnewz.com/uncategorized/at...rt-accusing-burke-ramsey-of-killing-jonbenet/

 

[ukrberserker23]

Just Googled the average depth of a 6 year old vagina. It said 3-4 inches. Also went to a site called Medscape
, and saw photos that I wish I hadn't. They do have good photo examples of different problems if you have the stomach for it. Very graphic.

 

[TeaTime]

The closest you will ever see a human being's head exploding.

Lin Wood does a Skype interview with Law Newz.com

http://lawnewz.com/uncategorized/at...rt-accusing-burke-ramsey-of-killing-jonbenet/

The video didn't play for me, but your comment made me laugh out loud.

 

[carolinea]

You're welcome! Well, I took it to mean there wasn't a true sexual assault. Meaning that it wasn't a pedophile or that the injuries to her vaginal canal was only to make it look like no one in the family could have done it. (How could a family member do something like that? for example) That it was only a red herring and meant to distract the LE from who actually caused her death. In the autopsy report http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf...

From the Bonita Papers:

In August, the Boulder police department contacted Dr. John McCann, one of the nation’s leading experts on child sexual abuse. McCann had agreed to assist the police department in determining if JonBenet had been a victim of sexual abuse during or before her murder. McCann was sent the autopsy report and photos. According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.

There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia. It was his opinion that the injury appeared to have been caused by a relatively small, very firm object which, due to the area of bruising, had made very forceful contact not only with the hymen, but also with the tissues surrounding the hymen. McCann believed that the object was forcefully jabbed in – not just shoved in. Although the bruised area would indicate something about the size of a finger nail, he did not believe it was a finger, because of the well demarcated edges of the bruise indicating an object much firmer than a finger. McCann was not able to see any fresh tears of the hymen which he thought might be due to the lack of detail in the photographs. It was unclear where the blood on the perineum originated, since there were no lacerations visible in these photos. McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area.

McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area.

McCann also noted that there appeared to be a bruise on the inner right thigh which he though might represent a thumb imprint from forcing the legs apart.

Dr. McCann explained the term "chronic abuse" meant only that it was "repeated", but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of “prior abuse". The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior.

In discussing perpetrators of sexual abuse on children, McCann stated that the majority of children this age are molested by someone with whom they have close contact most commonly family members. He explained that if the molester is a stranger or someone else with whom the child is not close, the child will usually tell someone or psychological problems appear which create behavior changes observed by their parents. Common symptoms would be eating disorders, nightmares or a variety of behaviors indicating that something is bothering them. Commencement or increased bedwetting is also commonly seen in sexually abused children. When asked about JonBenet's sexualized behavior during her pageant performances, McCann said that this was not necessarily a sign of abuse, since this was taught behavior for the pageants. Also, with children's exposure to sexually explicit television programs, sexualized behavior is no longer considered to be an indication of possible sexual abuse.

Dr. Andrew Sirotnack from Children’s Hospital in Denver was also asked to review the medical findings and autopsy photographs. He confirmed McCann's determination of acute vaginal trauma during the assault on JonBenet, but he had not yet concluded that there was chronic abuse. Sirotnack had examined over 2,500 abused children during his career at Children's Hospital and had testified in approximately 50 - 100 criminal trials regarding sexual abuse on children.

In September 1997, the police department held a meeting with McCann and three other child sexual abuse experts to go over their opinions based on their review of the autopsy results. Dr. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida stated that she observed fresh hymeneal trauma on JonBenet and chronic inflammation that was not related to any urination issues. Dr. Rau said, “In my heart, this is chronic abuse,” but feared that a defense argument would be made that this was only evidence of masturbation.

Also agreeing with the findings of both McCann and Rau was Dr. Jim Monteleone of St. Louis. Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School, an expert first contacted for assistance in the Ramsey case by the D.A.’s office, was the most adamant supporter of the finding of chronic sexual abuse. He felt that in considering the past and present injuries to the hymen that the bedwetting/soiling took on enormous significance. He believed that this homicide was an indecent of “toilet rage” and subsequent cover up. He told the group of experts and detectives about another Colorado case where both parents had been at home and both were charged. “The JonBenet case is a text book example of toileting abuse rage," Krugman stated.

All of the experts agreed that there was no way any of the recent or chronic abuse damage to the genitalia of the child was the result of masturbation.

And later:

Dr. Bernhard felt there needed to be more follow-up with Burke in the discussion of sexual contact. The only show of emotion by Burke, other than the irritation with the questions about the actual crime, was when Dr. Bernhard began to ask about uncomfortable touching. Burke picked up a board game and put it on his head an action indicating anxiety or discomfort with these types of questions and that there was more that he was not telling her. Dr. Bernhard asked Burke if he had any secrets, and he said, “probably, if I did, I wouldn't tell you, because then it wouldn’t be a secret."