The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[TeaTime]

I tripped, fell forward and although my hands were extended, planted my forehead smack into the sharp corner of a metal furniture leg, requiring stitches by a plastic surgeon. My nephew, at about 3 years of age, slipped, fell forward and busted his chin on the opened and down door of the dishwasher as it was being loaded, requiring stitches by a plastic surgeon. My niece did a face plant after getting tangled in a jump rope, scrapes on nose - no doctor needed.

I don't think JBR's prior injuries are from anything sinister, such as being abused. As for her other doctor visits, they seem to be just normal childhood germ issues.

PR believed that LE was her enemy. No doubt she was coached that LE will lie to get a response so she was on guard and likely thought that the information about prior sexual abuse was a lie just to gauge her reaction. She wanted proof. Had they shown her proof, we may have seen an hysterical reaction.

I am not convinced that JBR was being sexually abused by anyone. To my non-scientific mind, all the injuries noted to that area may very well be consistent with her falling on her bike and chronic vaginitis.

 

[Heymom]

I'd like to know this as well. A few of her issues(sinus problems, coughing, earaches, etc.) are side effects to some of the meds Patsy was taking. Not very likely as only a small percentage of users get those specific side effects, but might be different in children. In all fairness, many medical issues can cause those symptoms but it does make you wonder.

Has her dental history ever been made public? I don't remember. Cavities could be what caused the long term bad breath.

Given the state of the house, with discarded soda cans in Burke's sink, probably the kids had access to any kind of snack they wanted at any time, I'm thinking the dental hygiene wasn't very thorough.

 

[jslk]

At this point, I don't understand how anyone can defend the IDI standpoint 😕

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[buggiegirl]

I don't think JBR's prior injuries are from anything sinister, such as being abused. As for her other doctor visits, they seem to be just normal childhood germ issues.

Same, kids fall ALL the time. Mine aren't particularly clumsy and they are still constantly covered in shin bruises etc. I am too and I'm an adult!

Given all the bad breath issues, I bet she had allergies and a ton of postnasal drip. Cold sores can be from a crap diet, I used to get them NONSTOP and then I started eating better and haven't had one since. Soda especially gave them to me and made one I had already much worse. There was just nothing in that list of doctor's visits that was particularly interesting or red flag-ish to me. Her 3 falls are six months apart each, not exactly concerning for a small child.

 

[carolinea]

OK, but they didn't do the autopsy. That is the big difference. They are still just reviewing evidence gathered from the autopsy. And the experts that reviewed the evidence argued both sides. That is why I'm sticking with the original autopsy as the authority. Her pediatrician while doing a physical exams found no reason to give her a an internal exam, or he would have. I just checked him on google, there is no record of the man being disbarred or sued for gross negligence. So I count his testimony as good circumstantial evidence backing up the the autopsy.

How many autopsies on murder victims had the coroner done at that point in his career? Boulder averaged less than one per year at that time. Why would the average coroner, who hasn't even done very many autopsies on victims of violent crimes, recognize physical patterns of child abuse, like thickening of the hymen in certain areas?

On the other hand, you have a doctor (John McCann), who at that point in time had more than twenty years of experience in documenting the physical effects of sexual abuse. He pioneered a program to study and document the changes that occur in the genital/reproductive areas from abuse.

Is it not logical that an expert in the area, who's spent his life and career studying this kind of thing, would recognize what the average coroner would not?

 

[Magdalyn]

Excellent observations, Magdalyn. I didn't put it together about all the injuries/accidents she had to her head and face. You're absolutely correct that those things would be looked at more closely had a woman died from a traumatic injury to the head. Also questionable, as you point out, is her falling and hitting her nose without breaking the fall with her hands. :thinking: Odd, or suspicious?

RE: BBM

Unlikely, is what I'm starting to think.

(all below is a theory)

She didn't fall with the first injury (Golf club), she was hit by Burke in the upper head (face) with a weaponized object.

She didn't fall with the second injury. She was hit in the nose, by Burke, by hand or an object, or was shoved into something face first and still upright by Burke.

Third incident: Didn't trip, was hit in the upper head by a weaponized object by Burke. Again.

Fourth incident: "Another fall" (even the doctor has admitted here these falls are piling up) Fingers, wrists, hands, forearms break in falls. Fingernails rip off when fingernails used defensively. Jonebenet sustains a defensive wound (ripped off fingernail) fighting off Burke.

Fifth incident: Burke strikes her in the head with a weaponized object, this time resulting in her death.

 

[Tadpole12]

DFF, barbie

 

[Sparko96]

I just saw this:

[video=youtube;yvhWaXMWxnQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvhWaXMWxnQ[/video]

I think if I was on the jury of the lawsuit, Lin Wood wouldn't have to work too hard to convince me that these folks took their theory a bit too seriously and got it confused with reality. I'd probably side with the Ramseys on the lawsuit - even though I think Burke did it.

He is an expert in this type of behavior. Their "theory" supports the GJ indictments. Lin Wood, if the facts of this case leak out as heinously as one would expect, would suffer personally and professionally since he did not have to represent the family. He is as tied to the case as the Ramseys now. Not all cases are worth it. I think of OJ too. Bad karma.


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[PositiveLight]

Personally, regarding the CBS documentary, I think they did an excellent job. I do feel they gave the intruder theory enough time before ruling it out. We only saw 4 hours of what was initially a 6 hour show. (Hopefully they will eventually release the other 2 hours. But I think they are holding it in their pocket incase there is a lawsuit, so that they can whip out the remaining damning evidence that made them reach their conclusion.)
I DO trust their findings. Again, we only saw 4 hours. They spent months on this case and all of the details. There is SO MUCH evidence in this case that it would take a month of shows every day to discuss each piece and its relevance to the case. We are seeing the highlights of their investigation basically.
These are experts in their fields and some personally worked on the case. SO with that in mind, we have to consider that they know a lot of information that hasn't even been released. (I can't even imagine how much more there is, considering how much is already in the public eye.)
250 years of experience. That is a ton! Dr. Spitz has done over 60,000 autopsies alone! That is a huge amount. So, for me at least, I have to trust that he knows what he is talking about.
This group of experts are EXPERTS. Honestly, I think this is the first time that the case has been even looked at properly. So kudos for them and I personally was very impressed.
There wasn't hardly ANY fluff at all. No time fillers. It was all evidence and discussion pertaining to the evidence. The mock Ramsey house was also a wonderful tool.
So I hope that the Ramsey's are dumb enough to sue CBS. Then CBS can bring out ALL of the evidence that they sifted through plus all of the evidence that those experts had in hand during their initial time on the case. It will all be brought to light. Because they would need to use the evidence to prove they had good reason to come to their conclusions. FINALLY maybe, little JonBenet will have some sort of justice even if it's by way of a separate trial and investigation. The truth may finally be told. Lord I pray this comes to light. Her story needs to be told. America needs to know that a child cannot be brutally murdered and everyone walk away without paying for the crime, whether its in a civil court, criminal court, or in the court of public opinion. I demand justice for JonBenet. We all should. Her family dang sure isn't.
So I am so glad that CBS took this leap and gave a voice to JonBenet. So many were thrown under the bus and blamed. So many still cry over her death. She was loved by more than just her family. Watching Judith Phillips cry over JonBenet drove that home for me. I pray there is some sort of justice for JonBenet.
I'm sick of seeing parents harm their children and think they can get away with it. Some even do!
Laws need to be changed. Kids who do commit heinous acts should be held responsible. Kids mature so much faster now a days. Plus, depending on their home life, some kids may be introduced to things much earlier. I do feel intent can be made in a child younger than 10.
So frustrating! I just know that if it was my baby girl, I would turn over every rock including those in my own home and demand justice. Not run from the cops and lawyer up. I know not everyone feels like I do. But I will tell you this. I have always told my kids that if they committed a crime or harmed another person I would turn them in immediately. I would not protect them from the law. In fact, I went as far as to tell them I would testify against them. It's the truth too. I didn't raise my kids to hurt others like that. So if they ever do, I will not claim them any more. That might sound cold to some, but I feel strongly about it. Each person of course will handle things differently. Cases like this are the exact reason I even discussed this with my children. They always loved to watch court sessions and law tv shows. So it came up in natural conversation. My kids know the difference between right and wrong. Have they made mistakes? Definitely. Have they been punished for those mistakes? Definitely.
It starts at home.

 

[singularity]

Excellent observations, Magdalyn. I didn't put it together about all the injuries/accidents she had to her head and face. You're absolutely correct that those things would be looked at more closely had a woman died from a traumatic injury to the head. Also questionable, as you point out, is her falling and hitting her nose without breaking the fall with her hands. :thinking: Odd, or suspicious?

I'd like to know more details on this finger injury as well.. Was it actually broken for unknown reasons by someone but hushed up? Years ago on FFJ Judith Philips was posting for awhile and the possibility was brought up that this finger was broken. Its slightly bent and doesn't line up with her other fingers with her hand placed against her face. If memory serves me correctly, Judith believed it was broken and healed in place. I don't want to put words in her mouth as that discussion was years ago. Here was the pic used in that discussion.....

Edit. Thanks tadpole for the close up pics of the WC doll. THose are the highest quality pics we've seen yet. Everyone should send a 'thanks' tadpole's way because for years we had one extremely grainy pic blown up to look at. You're another huge asset to this community.

 

[carolinea]

Decides to go get the swiss army knife first, absent-mindedly places the fruit paring knife down on the laundry counter top and in a panic and a dash to get back to the basement forgets they've put it there, while getting out the swiss army knife and leaving the pull-ups cupboard door open.

How positive are we that the pineapple was store bought and prepared? A paring knife is something one might have out while preparing pineapple.

The pineapple in JBR's system and the pineapple in the bowl both had rinds. It seems like perhaps store-bought fruit would have been more carefully cut.

 

[Tadpole12]

To my non-scientific mind, all the injuries noted to that area may very well be consistent with her falling on her bike and chronic vaginitis.

Heyya TT

hmmm cuppa sounds good.


In the DP interview BR made mention of JBR falling off her bike.

 

[PositiveLight]

Another thing that's bothering me about this CBS special is that they made a big deal of recreating several rooms in the house to help them with the investigation - a picture is worth 1000 words but going to the crime scene is worth 1,000,000 words, etc. etc.. But the only part of the recreated home that seemed useful for investigation was the window with the spider web - and they surely didn't need a whole room for that. It seems like the recreated house was useful mostly for production value - not investigative value. Am I missing something, did they use the set to investigate more than the "spider web was in the way" theory?

They used it I think to show the darkness of the WC. The kitchen area. And probably in the 2 hours that weren't aired too.

 

[Magdalyn]

I tripped, fell forward and although my hands were extended, planted my forehead smack into the sharp corner of a metal furniture leg, requiring stitches by a plastic surgeon. My nephew, at about 3 years of age, slipped, fell forward and busted his chin on the opened and down door of the dishwasher as it was being loaded, requiring stitches by a plastic surgeon. My niece did a face plant after getting tangled in a jump rope, scrapes on nose - no doctor needed.

I don't think JBR's prior injuries are from anything sinister, such as being abused. As for her other doctor visits, they seem to be just normal childhood germ issues.

PR believed that LE was her enemy. No doubt she was coached that LE will lie to get a response so she was on guard and likely thought that the information about prior sexual abuse was a lie just to gauge her reaction. She wanted proof. Had they shown her proof, we may have seen an hysterical reaction.

I am not convinced that JBR was being sexually abused by anyone. To my non-scientific mind, all the injuries noted to that area may very well be consistent with her falling on her bike and chronic vaginitis.

Respectfully, your post compiled three people's histories combined to come up with three falls. The five injuries I listed all happened to one person in 26 months and the last injury killed her.

 

[otg]

I'd like to know more details on this finger injury as well.. Was it actually broken for unknown reasons by someone but hushed up? Years ago on FFJ Judith Philips was posting for awhile and the possibility was brought up that this finger was broken. Its slightly bent and doesn't line up with her other fingers with her hand placed against her face. If memory serves me correctly, Judith believed it was broken and healed in place. I don't want to put words in her mouth as that discussion was years ago. Here was the pic used in that discussion..... Edit. Thanks tadpole for the close up pics of the WC doll. THose are the highest quality pics we've seen yet. Everyone should send a 'thanks' tadpole's way because for years we had one extremely grainy pic blown up to look at. You're another huge asset to this community.

I had forgotten about that discussion, singularity. But now that you brought it up, I do remember it. For those who don't know, Judith Phillips posted under the hat "Cookie."

 

[Magdalyn]

Cold sores are caused by a Herpes virus (HSV-1 HSV-2)

They may be exacerbated by diet once the virus is in your system. Jonbenet had to contract it from another person.

The herpes simplex virus usually enters the body through a break in the skin around or inside the mouth. It is usually spread when a person touches a cold sore or touches infected fluid-such as from sharing eating utensils or razors, kissing an infected person, or touching that person's saliva. A parent who has a cold sore often spreads the infection to his or her child in this way. Cold sores can also be spread to other areas of the body.

http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/tc/cold-sores-topic-overview#1

 

[PositiveLight]

I'd like to know more details on this finger injury as well.. Was it actually broken for unknown reasons by someone but hushed up? Years ago on FFJ Judith Philips was posting for awhile and the possibility was brought up that this finger was broken. Its slightly bent and doesn't line up with her other fingers with her hand placed against her face. If memory serves me correctly, Judith believed it was broken and healed in place. I don't want to put words in her mouth as that discussion was years ago. Here was the pic used in that discussion.....

Edit. Thanks tadpole for the close up pics of the WC doll. THose are the highest quality pics we've seen yet. Everyone should send a 'thanks' tadpole's way because for years we had one extremely grainy pic blown up to look at. You're another huge asset to this community.

Wow that finger does look like it healed improperly from a break. My cousins finger is like that due to it not being properly taken care of. Judith was on to something. Great find!

 

[ThinkHard]

I'd like to know more details on this finger injury as well.. Was it actually broken for unknown reasons by someone but hushed up? Years ago on FFJ Judith Philips was posting for awhile and the possibility was brought up that this finger was broken. Its slightly bent and doesn't line up with her other fingers with her hand placed against her face. If memory serves me correctly, Judith believed it was broken and healed in place. I don't want to put words in her mouth as that discussion was years ago. Here was the pic used in that discussion.....

Edit. Thanks tadpole for the close up pics of the WC doll. THose are the highest quality pics we've seen yet. Everyone should send a 'thanks' tadpole's way because for years we had one extremely grainy pic blown up to look at. You're another huge asset to this community.

If this was a professional phot shoot, no doubt lights would have been in her face...yet her pupils look unusually large for that level of light exposure.

Also I have one finger that looks a lot like that. It was a gymnastics injury and my finger twisted on the knuckle and the finger bones were spiral fractured....it was repositioned and cast, but it still has a twist to it.

To me that definetly looks like a break and it looks like someone grabbed her by the hand/finger and twisted it.

 

[ThinkHard]

How positive are we that the pineapple was store bought and prepared? A paring knife is something one might have out while preparing pineapple.

The pineapple in JBR's system and the pineapple in the bowl both had rinds. It seems like perhaps store-bought fruit would have been more carefully cut.

Store bought fruit is often sloppily cut because the cut so much, and often has pieces of rind on it, it drives me crazy!

 

[Kakidoll]

I have a broken finger that had that exact curve. I waited too long to go to hospital thinking I could set it myself. I had crushed a few bones .... horse accident...and er doc and ortho said after 48 hours it cannot be reset.

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