The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[WhoKnowsWhat]

I just realized I have been so wrapped up in WS I missed the due date on some of my bills. My how time flies. So I paid the late fee on one and called customer service on another and whined and got the fee reversed. So listen up if you too have been so immersed you haven't attended to your bills.����

 

[johnjay]

James Kohler's theory is that Burke did it all, on purpose, except for the ransom note and some of the un-doing.

The Case of JonBenet-CBS puts forward the case that Burke did it by accident and the parent(s) covered it up with the staging of the body and the ransom note. James Kohler participated in the program because he is an adamant BDI, even though his theory takes it much further. The show never put forth Kohler's full theory, only taking the parts it needed.

I've been wondering this since I watched the show, but for some reason I'm only able to articulate it now. Do you think The Case Of didn't go all the way with BDEverything because they really don't believe that or because they can't say all that aloud on national television, because they'd surely be sued to death?

I find it much easier to believe BDAccident and the parent(s) staged and covered up.

Either way, Burke is involved in the cover up since he too has lied and denied all these years.

I suspect CBS lawyers had some input at some point.

I find it impossible to believe that these parents find their daughter unconscious, or apparently dead, and then think: "let's garrote her", etc. etc.. There's a lot of ways that a child can get a head injury - the Ramsey's didn't do all this crazy stuff because JBR was lying unconscious or dead with no obvious head injury.

 

[UKGuy]

James Kohler's theory is that Burke did it all, on purpose, except for the ransom note and some of the un-doing.

The Case of JonBenet-CBS puts forward the case that Burke did it by accident and the parent(s) covered it up with the staging of the body and the ransom note. James Kohler participated in the program because he is an adamant BDI, even though his theory takes it much further. The show never put forth Kohler's full theory, only taking the parts it needed.

I've been wondering this since I watched the show, but for some reason I'm only able to articulate it now. Do you think The Case Of didn't go all the way with BDEverything because they really don't believe that or because they can't say all that aloud on national television, because they'd surely be sued to death?

I find it much easier to believe BDAccident and the parent(s) staged and covered up.

Either way, Burke is involved in the cover up since he too has lied and denied all these years.

YouWho,
They dropped stuff because they cannot substantiate it, which also might leave them open to litigation, since LW knows its simpler in dollar terms to drop a case, than to defend it.

I have a similar theory but can save lots of humming and hoeing if I just say it was an accident.


.

 

[Magdalyn]

Didn't notice it before but there are two ropes in that photo. 'Hmmmmm.

I cannot get the photo to link so people don't have to search. Help would be appreciated.

On the left? I believe one is the phone cord from the wall jack to the (outdoor!) phone, and one is the curly style cord that goes from the phone to the handset.

I did wonder what that black object was under the swing. A men's wallet?

 

[carolinea]

I suspect CBS lawyers had some input at some point.

I find it impossible to believe that these parents find their daughter unconscious, or apparently dead, and then think: "let's garrote her", etc. etc.. There's a lot of ways that a child can get a head injury - the Ramsey's didn't do all this crazy stuff because JBR was lying unconscious or dead with no obvious head injury.

I think it's possible they used the garrote, not knowing she was still alive (when you're scared and jumpy, it would be possible to miss a very faint pulse, IMO), to make that look like the cause of death, because they didn't know what the actual cause of death was. The coverup was because the sexual component meant they couldn't claim an accident.

That said, I believe BR is the one who used the garrote.

I don't usually put any weight in the "video games made them do it" theory of violence, but I have to wonder if Burke played a lot of computer games. There was a really popular game in 1995 called Phantasmagoria that had all kinds of graphic violence and a rape scene. It makes me wonder if he'd played it (at a friend's house, perhaps) and got some ideas from it.

 

[dogperson]

I think CBS didn't dare come out and say Burke did the garrotte but if he didn't, the cover up makes no sense. I just don't think PR or JR decided to "finish off" their daughter. As we were told in the Case Anthony case, you don't make an accident look like murder, and parents always call 911 even if it's obvious the child is past saving. If Burke did nothing but the head injury I think the parents would have claimed accident and called an ambulance.

 

[Djoop]

For those of you who believe BR used the garrotte.

Would you agree that pretty much excludes that BR 'only' had an agressive personality, but rather a sadistic personality. He didn't only want to kill her, he wanted to hurt, degrade, and inflict agony upon her.
And if so, which of the 4 subtypes would fit BR?

 

[johnjay]

For those of you who believe BR used the garrotte.

Would you agree that pretty much excludes that BR 'only' had an agressive personality, but rather a sadistic personality. He didn't only want to kill her, he wanted to hurt, degrade, and inflict agony upon her.
And if so, which of the 4 subtypes would fit BR?

I doubt very much that he was thinking something like: "not only are you going to die but I'm going to make sure you suffer doing it." But I can't really wrap my head around his state of mind while this was happening. Maybe if I knew more about that Christmas day and why Kolar thinks Christmas presents were part of the motivation. Maybe if I knew more about the Christmas party and why JBR wasn't feeling pretty. Maybe if I knew why he messed up his sisters Christmas candy - I'm not thinking she did that.

I also can't wrap my head around what people are thinking when they suggest that John and/or Patsy found JBR unconscious or dead, looking pretty normal, no obvious gash in her head, and then instead of calling 911 for an ambulance hoping she's not really dead they make a garrote and finish her off and stage a horrific scene. It would have been very easy for the Ramsey's to pass off the head injury as an accident. Even CBS did that much for them.

 

[carolinea]

I also can't wrap my head around what people are thinking when they suggest that John and/or Patsy found JBR unconscious or dead, looking pretty normal, no obvious gash in her head, and then instead of calling 911 for an ambulance hoping she's not really dead they make a garrote and finish her off and stage a horrific scene. It would have been very easy for the Ramsey's to pass off the head injury as an accident. Even CBS did that much for them.

Because of the sexual component. There's no calling it an accident if she's also been sexually violated. Even if you think the evidence is inconclusive that she was, the fact is there were enough indications to arouse suspicion and it would have been investigated.

 

[johnjay]

Because of the sexual component. There's no calling it an accident if she's also been sexually violated. Even if you think the evidence is inconclusive that she was, the fact is there were enough indications to arouse suspicion and it would have been investigated.

But people don't even agree that she was sexually violated. CBS didn't think so.

 

[WhoKnowsWhat]

BUT if your focus had become saving your son, and you felt he was doing well at that point....

I guess if I were in denial and was pushing it out of my mind ...... No, I don't think so.

 

[snowflakes07]

So I'm watching The First 48 on A&E and it looks like JR is doing another show to refute the CBS show. In the clip, he said he's disgusted that they used the boy to demonstrate a child hitting another child with the flashlight and that the Secret Service explicitly said Patsy did not write the ransom note. I had no clue the Secret Service worked on this case?

 

[Annapurna]

For those of you who believe BR used the garrotte.

Would you agree that pretty much excludes that BR 'only' had an agressive personality, but rather a sadistic personality. He didn't only want to kill her, he wanted to hurt, degrade, and inflict agony upon her.
And if so, which of the 4 subtypes would fit BR?

I don't know enough to suggest a subtype, but one thing I haven't seen anyone say recently is that the ligature could have been some kind of "control device" (i know this was suggested by some investigator, but I can't remember who, sorry!). Essentially a leash for her. It could have been presented to JBR as a game (one of her pageant applications noted she liked to "play kitty", as did I at her age).

I suspect there were many triggers for BR throughout the day, not just pineapple or presents. Jealousy (BR did NOT receive a new bike for Christmas as some have reported, he got one the year before. JBR & PR did get new bikes, hence the 2 in the photo.), annoyance (she was reportedly playing in his room that day with her friends, right in the doorway. maybe he did not like that or told her not to play in his room and she was like I'm not all the way in) tiredness (he was up around 5am) hunger (hence the snack) etc are all things that could have contributed to him being irritable. I can say from experience (oldest child) that it is a short step from irritation to all out violent anger in some children.

If he was less explosive in his anger, and more scheming, revengeful (the feces smeared chocolates suggest this) then perhaps all of his anger and irritation boiled over. He controlled her with the "leash", maybe intending to tie her to something so she would leave him alone or to get her to comply with sexual exploration. She, being tired and hungry herself may have begun to resist, leading to the blow to the head. She would have fallen when hit. If the "leash" was tied to something or was in burke's hand, it may have tightened just enough to keep her alive until the swelling of the area completed the asphyxiation.

Just spit-balling here, not really meant to be a fully fleshed out theory. As always, this is my opinion.

 

[Annapurna]

So I'm watching The First 48 on A&E and it looks like JR is doing another show to refute the CBS show. In the clip, he said he's disgusted that they used the boy to demonstrate a child hitting another child with the flashlight and that the Secret Service explicitly said Patsy did not write the ransom note. I had no clue the Secret Service worked on this case?

I think he's wrong honestly. The Secret Service were involved in the identification of the ink that the note was written in (IIRC). I haven't seen anywhere that her handwriting was examined by them. If so I would love a link!!

 

[CoolJ]

Why would Patsy write the RN? That's what I don't get. It is riddled with her expressions and unique cursive letters as well as items that only those close to them would know.
Her and John would know it would be easy to point the finger at her. It just doesn't make sense to me. Too many easier alternatives.
I believe a stronger possibility is that somebody staged that letter to make it look like PR wrote it. JMO

 

[TeaTime]

I can't wrap my head around all of PR's fibers being in the cord and on the tape (facts) and BR doing everything by himself (speculation) although I defer to Kolar and his opinion as he is the expert, not me.

So when JR said 'this is my last interview ever", he didn't really mean it, he went on 48 hours to refute the CBS show? These people.

As for the Secret Service - really? Steven Thomas had the CBI analysis and wanted the FBI to give a second opinion. The FBI does not give second opinions, it only does first analysis, so Thomas was directed to a particular investigator. Someone posted a brief interview of him somewhere here but I can't find it. He sent 3 days examining the RN and stated:

"The handwriting of PR did appear in the RN". However, the handwriting evidenced the attempt to disguise it, he suggested the writer used the unfamiliar hand and therefore there were differences that he could not resolve, so he could not definitively name her as the author. Of all other suspects that he examined, PR was the only one that could not be eliminated.

JR and PR must have hired an ex-SS agent.

 

[Heymom]

Why would Patsy write the RN? That's what I don't get. It is riddled with her expressions and unique cursive letters as well as items that only those close to them would know.
Her and John would know it would be easy to point the finger at her. It just doesn't make sense to me. Too many easier alternatives.
I believe a stronger possibility is that somebody staged that letter to make it look like PR wrote it. JMO

What are the easier alternatives, please?

What if JR put her up to it? Told her to do it? And maybe thought she would take the fall? Since he handed LE her pad and pen that morning.....One does wonder.

 

[carolinea]

But people don't even agree that she was sexually violated. CBS didn't think so.

As I said, even if you think the evidence is inconclusive, there was enough evidence there to bring up the question and force an investigation.

Blood in her underwear. Blood below her vagina. Blood on her legs. (And this after she was wiped clean, so I'm going to assume it was worse before that.) A torn hymen with at least one injury that would have been quite painful. One of the police officers present at her autopsy described the state of her genitals as "shocking."

Do you think if the police had been called they would have said, "Well, we can't be sure if she was sexually violated or not, so we won't investigate"?

 

[questfortrue]

But people don't even agree that she was sexually violated. CBS didn't think so.

Perhaps they are parsing the meaning of ‘sexual assault’ for liability reasons or to diminish Smit’s claim that a pedophile was responsible. Spitz claimed in his report for the BPD that it was believed she had been assaulted with a paintbrush that night.

 

[questfortrue]

I think he's wrong honestly. The Secret Service were involved in the identification of the ink that the note was written in (IIRC). I haven't seen anywhere that her handwriting was examined by them. If so I would love a link!!

JR is referencing one examiner, Dusak, who was with the Secret Service. He was the only one to say Patsy did not write the note. All the other handwriting examiners could not exclude her. SuperDave probably has a link on this.