The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[Heymom]

Heymom,
Does this mean Patsy never bought JonBenet a set of size-6 Bloomingdales underwear on the New York trip, otherwise surely a pair of these would have been clean?

.

She must have had the rest of the set, but just like all the other underwear, it must have been stained as well. What I want to know is, why was it important to have the same day panties on JonBenet, instead of a clean pair, however they may have been stained, from her drawer upstairs? Was it Patsy who made that decision, or BR, or JR? Someone decided to put a pair of size-12 panties of the day of the week she'd been wearing before she was killed. Patsy said when questioned, that JonBenet had been wearing those same panties ALL DAY but that is completely unbelievable as they would have been bunched up in her pants or falling down if she pulled her pants down. No, her regular size 6 underwear was ruined after she died, and were disposed of somewhere.

 

[TinaD]

I am so far behind on this thread, I'll never get to read it all! So I apologise if this has already been covered. Re the garrote - wasn't JB's hair found to be tied into the knot? if so, it wasn't from something else and repurposed, nor was it made earlier. If her hair was caught in the knot, it means the cord was tied around her neck, not tied then put over her head. This also means that it couldn't have been pulled tight once tied, as her hair would have been yanked out.

A few years ago, there was some discussion here about this, and the theory was floated that maybe the garrote was tied around her neck to explain marks caused either by a hand or by something else.

Also, I'm wondering whether some of the staging actually happened during John's missing time. Run with me here: BR hits JB, wakes/gets PR (if she didn't actually go to bed). She also panics, writes the note, stages JB to look like a sexual assault - hands overhead etc. JR wakes up in the morning, realises the note is hinky but doesn't know what has happened. Insists on the 911 call. Goes looking for JB during the time is is 'missing', finds her, can't have her found the dramatic way PR has staged, dresses her in the Bloomies panties (has to use them as they're the only thing available in the basement, and he can't go running upstairs to her bedroom for a pair that fit), wraps her in the blanket and moves her so that he can 'find' her later. There's still several problems with this scenario, but I do think the idea of JR changing the staging during his missing time may have legs.

 

[UKGuy]

She must have had the rest of the set, but just like all the other underwear, it must have been stained as well. What I want to know is, why was it important to have the same day panties on JonBenet, instead of a clean pair, however they may have been stained, from her drawer upstairs? Was it Patsy who made that decision, or BR, or JR? Someone decided to put a pair of size-12 panties of the day of the week she'd been wearing before she was killed. Patsy said when questioned, that JonBenet had been wearing those same panties ALL DAY but that is completely unbelievable as they would have been bunched up in her pants or falling down if she pulled her pants down. No, her regular size 6 underwear was ruined after she died, and were disposed of somewhere.

Heymom,
BBM: ITA. IMO it was ether BR or JR who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's? Assuming an absence of either fibers or touch-dna from BR being on the size-12's, then it looks like it was JR who redressed JonBenet in them?

Regardless it seems as if the re dresser thought She is wearing a Wednesday size-6 pair, so I'll dress her in a clean Wednesday Day Of The Week size-12 pair Job done, underwear is just underwear after all.


Also we have never been told if a size-6 Wednesday pair is missing from the collection of JonBenet's underwear taken from the house!


.

 

[UKGuy]

I am so far behind on this thread, I'll never get to read it all! So I apologise if this has already been covered. Re the garrote - wasn't JB's hair found to be tied into the knot? if so, it wasn't from something else and repurposed, nor was it made earlier. If her hair was caught in the knot, it means the cord was tied around her neck, not tied then put over her head. This also means that it couldn't have been pulled tight once tied, as her hair would have been yanked out.

A few years ago, there was some discussion here about this, and the theory was floated that maybe the garrote was tied around her neck to explain marks caused either by a hand or by something else.

Also, I'm wondering whether some of the staging actually happened during John's missing time. Run with me here: BR hits JB, wakes/gets PR (if she didn't actually go to bed). She also panics, writes the note, stages JB to look like a sexual assault - hands overhead etc. JR wakes up in the morning, realises the note is hinky but doesn't know what has happened. Insists on the 911 call. Goes looking for JB during the time is is 'missing', finds her, can't have her found the dramatic way PR has staged, dresses her in the Bloomies panties (has to use them as they're the only thing available in the basement, and he can't go running upstairs to her bedroom for a pair that fit), wraps her in the blanket and moves her so that he can 'find' her later. There's still several problems with this scenario, but I do think the idea of JR changing the staging during his missing time may have legs.

TinaD,
I'm a proponent of what you suggest. What you miss is that the actual knotting can be post-hoc, or after the fact, this why the cord may have been re-purposed, i.e. to mask its original use?

From memory PR had to go upstairs to fetch long johns for JonBenet, or at least someone did, so why not pick up a pair of size-6 underwear?

.

 

[Heymom]

Heymom,
BBM: ITA. IMO it was ether BR or JR who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's? Assuming an absence of either fibers or touch-dna from BR being on the size-12's, then it looks like it was JR who redressed JonBenet in them?

Regardless it seems as if the re dresser thought She is wearing a Wednesday size-6 pair, so I'll dress her in a clean Wednesday Day Of The Week size-12 pair Job done, underwear is just underwear after all.


Also we have never been told if a size-6 Wednesday pair is missing from the collection of JonBenet's underwear taken from the house!


.

But how would they have even known that underwear was there in the basement? I get the distinct impression that Christmas was Patsy's thing, not John's, and that he would be clueless about presents, especially underwear for a niece.

Patsy may have said more about this in her interviews. I know she insisted that JonBenet had wanted to wear those specific panties that day, so she had a story about it to defend the fact that JonBenet was wearing a pair of underwear that were several sizes too large for her.

 

[TinaD]

TinaD,
I'm a proponent of what you suggest. What you miss is that the actual knotting can be post-hoc, or after the fact, this why the cord may have been re-purposed, i.e. to mask its original use?

From memory PR had to go upstairs to fetch long johns for JonBenet, or at least someone did, so why not pick up a pair of size-6 underwear?

.

Hi UKGuy - I agree - I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Earlier in the thread, some people were suggesting that the garrote could have been made earlier, in a premeditated plan. I can't see that fits with the facts. As far as repurposing - there was speculation it could have already been tied around a christmas tree box, and I assumed people meant that the loop already existed (does that make sense?) What original use could need to be masked?

Did the longjohns have to be fetched? I thought JB was wearing them when she went to bed - I know nothing PR states can be relied on though.

 

[ukrberserker23]

I was just looking at the Hi-Tec website, and asked them of they had a gallery of 1996 models. Now there are 2 Hi-Tec ads here on the forum. Google is just Evil.

 

[UKGuy]

But how would they have even known that underwear was there in the basement? I get the distinct impression that Christmas was Patsy's thing, not John's, and that he would be clueless about presents, especially underwear for a niece.

Patsy may have said more about this in her interviews. I know she insisted that JonBenet had wanted to wear those specific panties that day, so she had a story about it to defend the fact that JonBenet was wearing a pair of underwear that were several sizes too large for her.

Heymom,
Patsy's account of JonBenet wearing the size-12's is patently fiction, designed to hide the fact that either BR or JR redressed JonBenet?

No size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer contradicts Patsy's story!

BR had opened the gifts down in the basement so he likely knew what was down there, and JR was ferrying gifts to the plane that day.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Hi UKGuy - I agree - I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Earlier in the thread, some people were suggesting that the garrote could have been made earlier, in a premeditated plan. I can't see that fits with the facts. As far as repurposing - there was speculation it could have already been tied around a christmas tree box, and I assumed people meant that the loop already existed (does that make sense?) What original use could need to be masked?

Did the longjohns have to be fetched? I thought JB was wearing them when she went to bed - I know nothing PR states can be relied on though.

TinaD,
Its possible that the cord alone was used for a different purpose, even that JonBenet was ligature asphyxiated with the knotting and paintbrush added afterwords, I'm not claiming this as fact just that it might have happened.

What original use could need to be masked?

This what we don't know since its staging.

Did the longjohns have to be fetched? I thought JB was wearing them when she went to bed - I know nothing PR states can be relied on though.

Yes, Patsy says she placed them onto JonBenet when putting her to bed because her Pink Pajama Bottoms were missing, red flag here, she fetched them from a drawer in JonBenet's toilet?

But we know JonBenet was awake, and probably wore those pajama bottoms or the pink nightgown?

.

 

[UKGuy]

I was just looking at the Hi-Tec website, and asked them of they had a gallery of 1996 models. Now there are 2 Hi-Tec ads here on the forum. Google is just Evil.

ukrberserker23,
Sounds like AdSense is running in the background ...

 

[Heymom]

Heymom,
Patsy's account of JonBenet wearing the size-12's is patently fiction, designed to hide the fact that either BR or JR redressed JonBenet?

No size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer contradicts Patsy's story!

BR had opened the gifts down in the basement so he likely knew what was down there, and JR was ferrying gifts to the plane that day.

.

I'm reading the stickied thread on FFJ about the Bloomies. I was mistaken - Patsy says JonBenet opened the pack of size 12-14 panties herself, and that they would have been upstairs in her bathroom (?). But LE never found the rest of the size 12-14 underwear. They turned up in possession of the Ramsey's investigators. Amazing!

And no, the original size 6 Bloomies that JonBenet must have been wearing were also never found.

I just had a terrible thought....Maybe that part of the scene was also Burke, trying to make JonBenet look as horrible as possible? Ugh. I hate this case more every day.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Did you mean antisocial personality disorder or dissociative personality disorder?

Sounds like a run of the mill common narcissist to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[UKGuy]

I'm reading the stickied thread on FFJ about the Bloomies. I was mistaken - Patsy says JonBenet opened the pack of size 12-14 panties herself, and that they would have been upstairs in her bathroom (?). But LE never found the rest of the size 12-14 underwear. They turned up in possession of the Ramsey's investigators. Amazing!

And no, the original size 6 Bloomies that JonBenet must have been wearing were also never found.

I just had a terrible thought....Maybe that part of the scene was also Burke, trying to make JonBenet look as horrible as possible? Ugh. I hate this case more every day.

Heymom,
That's why I suggest BR played some minimal role in the staging. The coroner said the bloodstain in the size-12's never matched any blood on her body, i.e. she was wiped down, but after she was redressed, i.e. JR cleaning up?

.

 

[Ashleyh613]

Ok so I just finished Koler's book and I want to point out a couple interesting things I read that jumped out at me. Koler as stated by him in the book wasn't going to present his entire theory of what he believed happened that night but he def was able to lead the reader to a scenario where he believed Burke was responsible for the head wound and stangulation. And eluded that BR was acting out sexually on JBR. He said the Ramsey's agreed to release medical records but there were some they wouldn't and they deserved an "island of privacy". He thought these were perhaps mental health records of BR. So what I found very interesting is that in JR's 1998 interview he states that he is taking medication prescribed by BR's Psychiatrist. Koler though it was odd he still saw one that long after JBR's death since he supposedly hadn't witnessed anything or it hadn't seemed to bother him in the first place. That's not what caught my attention, what did was that he was specifically seeing a psychiatrist not a psychologist/therapist. I'm in no way a professional but I have myself seen both kinds of professionals as has my son. Psychiatrists are medical doctors who diagnose, treat, and prescribe medicine for psychiatric disorders whether it be depression anxiety whatever, they are not therapists. Which if BR needed to be seeing someone to deal with the loss of his sister it would generally be a child psychologist/therapists who ha experience working with children in grief. I want to know would Burke need to see a psychiatrist if there were no mental health/psychiatric diagnosis?

 

[WhoKnowsWhat]

I just thought to ask, do you all get mail on 26th December in the States?

Here it is a public holiday and there is no mail.

And another thing, would the banks be open? Just thinking of the ransom note's instructions to go to the bank.

yes we get mail. Every year I look forward to the day after Christmas getting the IRS tax booklet. Ha ha At least the past few years we don't get that because so many people file online. It was always kind of like the final insult after all the money spent at Christmas and all the work put into it.

 

[TinaD]

TinaD,
Its possible that the cord alone was used for a different purpose, even that JonBenet was ligature asphyxiated with the knotting and paintbrush added afterwords, I'm not claiming this as fact just that it might have happened.


This what we don't know since its staging.


Yes, Patsy says she placed them onto JonBenet when putting her to bed because her Pink Pajama Bottoms were missing, red flag here, she fetched them from a drawer in JonBenet's toilet?

But we know JonBenet was awake, and probably wore those pajama bottoms or the pink nightgown?

.

The pyjama bottoms were never found, from memory. So yes, she probably was wearing them. And they got shoved, along with other missing items, into the golf bag that John absolutely needed to have collected for him.

 

[otg]

PositiveLight:

Wow. What a herculean effort to transcribe all that. I just gotta say, a simple "Thanks" wasn't enough.

 

[YouWho]

Ok so I just finished Koler's book and I want to point out a couple interesting things I read that jumped out at me. Koler as stated by him in the book wasn't going to present his entire theory of what he believed happened that night but he def was able to lead the reader to a scenario where he believed Burke was responsible for the head wound and stangulation. And eluded that BR was acting out sexually on JBR. He said the Ramsey's agreed to release medical records but there were some they wouldn't and they deserved an "island of privacy". He thought these were perhaps mental health records of BR. So what I found very interesting is that in JR's 1998 interview he states that he is taking medication prescribed by BR's Psychiatrist. Koler though it was odd he still saw one that long after JBR's death since he supposedly hadn't witnessed anything or it hadn't seemed to bother him in the first place. That's not what caught my attention, what did was that he was specifically seeing a psychiatrist not a psychologist/therapist. I'm in no way a professional but I have myself seen both kinds of professionals as has my son. Psychiatrists are medical doctors who diagnose, treat, and prescribe medicine for psychiatric disorders whether it be depression anxiety whatever, they are not therapists. Which if BR needed to be seeing someone to deal with the loss of his sister it would generally be a child psychologist/therapists who ha experience working with children in grief. I want to know would Burke need to see a psychiatrist if there were no mental health/psychiatric diagnosis?

At the time of the murder, both the parents were on Paxil. John was also on Ativan and PR was definitely on that after the murder, although she may have been on it before I am not sure. That's why I am very curious ro know if the had Burke on meds. And if so, what would his meds have been? Unfortunately for us, there is no boat to that island of privacy.

On another topic, I am just now beginning to watch a new show on HLN How It Really Happened or something like that. It better not be IDI! (Is Nancy Grace IDI? Because she's on it.)

 

[otg]

(snipped)

On another topic, I am just now beginning to watch a new show on HLN How It Really Happened or something like that. It better not be IDI! (Is Nancy Grace IDI? Because she's on it.)

No RumbleTalk?

 

[Ashleyh613]

It's just really telling to me. I mean it's weird that he says it's prescribed by Burkes psychiatrist. It's easy to miss that nugget if your not paying attention or aren't familiar with the difference in profession. He would absolutely be seeing a therapists or counselor of he was seeing someone to deal with the murder of JBR. If he's under continued care of a psychiatrist it's because he's been diagnosed with a psychiatric disorder and May or may not be prescribed medication as well. And I think most versed in psychology know this. Big slip up for me. On an end note, do these parents not have their own doctors? Geez!