The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 3

[Karinna]

Karinna,
The fibers are consistent with Coroner Meyer's opinion that JonBenet was wiped down. That she was also Digitally Penetrated and underwent Sexual Contact.

So it looks like there was a sexual assault and a head blow Upstairs followed by staging down in the Basement in the manner of inserting a paintbrush or finger that had already touched the broken paintbrush, thereby transferring the splinter, then wiping JonBenet clean and redressing her in the size-12's?

So you can go for no sexual assault, and staged sexual assault, or both. If its just the latter then why do the R's first fake a sexual assault then clean it all up and hide it away beneath a layer of clothing?

If there has just been an accidental death via anger or mishap why all the sexual stuff and ligature asphyxiation, where is the percentage in that, does it not turn an accident into a nightmare?

.

I am not sure where the head trauma to JBR happened, but i don't necessarily think it had to be upstairs. What's to say definitely where it occurred? It could well have happened in or near the basement couldn't it?
There was also no proof to my knowledge of a sexual assault on JB on the night she died. I believe it was made to look as if a sexually deviant intruder broke in and did those horrible things to JB to set the stage as to motive of why she died, and to take the onus off any of the Ramsey's having any involvement, because the old cliche that nice wealthy people in beautiful homes don't do things like that to their child. Keeping up appearances i imagine.
As to your question about the R's faking a sexual assault and then cleaning it up, that could be for a reason or reasons only known to whoever did that. Why do perps. do what they do when they kill? I guess we would have to be in their head to know, and thankfully most of us could never imagine what goes through their head, and who would want to? We try and rationalize such things because it is human nature to try and make sense of things even when they don't make sense.

 

[Karinna]

I don't think Spitz explained how he determined there was brain death before the actual death. Or if there is any way to know how long after the blow the brain death likely occurred. He didn't say it would have been instantaneous.

Well that's the big question isn't it? I think sums it up well for me
(quote)
Unfortunately, Ramsey’s actual cause of death remains unknown. We still can’t be sure if it was strangulation or head trauma that killed her. Moreover, even if we could, there isn’t sufficient evidence that the flashlight is what caused her head wound. As with so many aspects of the Ramsey case, it remains a possibility, but may well never be confirmed.
https://www.bustle.com/articles/184...ramseys-murder-the-possibility-is-still-being

 

[Userid]

I am not sure where the head trauma to JBR happened, but i don't necessarily think it had to be upstairs. What's to say definitely where it occurred? It could well have happened in or near the basement couldn't it?
There was also no proof to my knowledge of a sexual assault on JB on the night she died. I believe it was made to look as if a sexually deviant intruder broke in and did those horrible things to JB to set the stage as to motive of why she died, and to take the onus off any of the Ramsey's having any involvement, because the old cliche that nice wealthy people in beautiful homes don't do things like that to their child. Keeping up appearances i imagine.
As to your question about the R's faking a sexual assault and then cleaning it up, that could be for a reason or reasons only known to whoever did that. Why do perps. do what they do when they kill? I guess we would have to be in their head to know, and thankfully most of us could never imagine what goes through their head, and who would want to? We try and rationalize such things because it is human nature to try and make sense of things even when they don't make sense.

Good points. I could be wrong here, but wasn't there blood drops recovered from JBR's pillow on her bed? That's why I always thought that maybe it occurred in her bedroom, but I am new to this case so I could be totally wrong.

Sometimes I wonder if the pineapple was given to her almost as a way to make her feel better after the head strike. She was able to get a piece down but it was obvious she was dying, so then it escalated from there after it was obvious she would never be the same (brain damage) or that she was dying and it needed to be covered up.

 

[Karinna]

Good points. I could be wrong here, but wasn't there blood drops recovered from JBR's pillow on her bed? That's why I always thought that maybe it occurred in her bedroom, but I am new to this case so I could be totally wrong.

Sometimes I wonder if the pineapple was given to her almost as a way to make her feel better after the head strike. She was able to get a piece down but it was obvious she was dying, so then it escalated from there after it was obvious she would never be the same (brain damage) or that she was dying and it needed to be covered up.

Hi and welcome to the thread. Yes you could be right about it happening in JB's bedroom, because we don't know exactly where it did actually happen. I'm not sure about drops of blood, but if a head injury is severe enough cerebospinal fluid can leak from the nose & ears, and could be blood tinged.
I'm not sure after such a severe head trauma that JBR would be able to eat anything, and i would think it knocked her unconscious?

 

[UKGuy]

Good points. I could be wrong here, but wasn't there blood drops recovered from JBR's pillow on her bed? That's why I always thought that maybe it occurred in her bedroom, but I am new to this case so I could be totally wrong.

Sometimes I wonder if the pineapple was given to her almost as a way to make her feel better after the head strike. She was able to get a piece down but it was obvious she was dying, so then it escalated from there after it was obvious she would never be the same (brain damage) or that she was dying and it needed to be covered up.

Userid,
Yes JonBenet's blood was found on her pillow in her bedroom. This suggests her assault has its origins upstairs, most likely not in the basement, that's why it was staged there, precisely to misdirect you.

We know what the cause of death was: it was a lack of oxygen due impaired brain function attributed to blunt force to the head and ligature asphyxiation again causing a lack of oxygen, thereby leading to death.

Localized Hypoxia was the cause of death.

.

 

[PositiveLight]

Hi and welcome to the thread. Yes you could be right about it happening in JB's bedroom, because we don't know exactly where it did actually happen. I'm not sure about drops of blood, but if a head injury is severe enough cerebospinal fluid can leak from the nose & ears, and could be blood tinged.
I'm not sure after such a severe head trauma that JBR would be able to eat anything, and i would think it knocked her unconscious?

In my opinion she ate the pineapple before the head blow. I think the head blow would have caused unconsciousness and possible seizure activity as the brain began misfiring. This could be the reason for the strangulation. To stop her from seizing. If the parents did come in after the head blow they could have been the ones who applied the ligature. Or used another object then covered later with the ligature found on her. If someone saw a seizure of this type for the first time... they may have been scared Terribly. I do think the parents knew she had been hit in the head and strangled. Imho the original strangulation device is also unknown. Well unknown to us at least. I think everything about the body that was found was all staged. Including the damage to the vaginal area. I do however feel that she was penetrated with something that night due to bleeding. She wouldn't have bled if it was done after her heart stopped beating. I think the parents found her naked from the waist down and proceeded to cover up all injuries as best they could. I do think she had been sexually assaulted prior to the night she died. I think when the Dr.s said there was no sexual assault they meant no penetration by a male. That it wasn't the first an only time it occurred. That it wasn't a motive in other words. She had blood in her vaginal vault. So something occurred. I think it is probably discussed in the missing two hours and why they come to that conclusion. This is all my personal opinion.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[carolinea]

The pineapple and Jonbenet's pillow on the kitchen table put her downstairs before death, IMO. IIRC, the blood in JBR's bedroom was so minute it was almost nonexistent and there's no indication when it got there.

Also, as I posted a few pages back, JBR's urine was on the floor in front of the wine room door, which indicates she either died there or was hit and went unconscious on that spot.

 

[carolinea]

From Kolar's AMA:

I believe the commonly held theory, based upon the sequencing of injuries, is that the garroting and the location of her death was on the small piece of carpet located outside the wine cellar door. Her bladder let go upon death, accounting for the urine stains in the front of her clothing and carpet. The rear application of the garrote is confirming evidence of her being on her stomach during this act.

 

[Annapurna]

Good points. I could be wrong here, but wasn't there blood drops recovered from JBR's pillow on her bed? That's why I always thought that maybe it occurred in her bedroom, but I am new to this case so I could be totally wrong.

Sometimes I wonder if the pineapple was given to her almost as a way to make her feel better after the head strike. She was able to get a piece down but it was obvious she was dying, so then it escalated from there after it was obvious she would never be the same (brain damage) or that she was dying and it needed to be covered up.

It is impossible for her to have eaten after she was hit. She would have been unconscious immediately, if by some miracle she was not, I really doubt she would be in the mood for a snack.

 

[southernmimi]

Hi and welcome to the thread. Yes you could be right about it happening in JB's bedroom, because we don't know exactly where it did actually happen. I'm not sure about drops of blood, but if a head injury is severe enough cerebospinal fluid can leak from the nose & ears, and could be blood tinged.
I'm not sure after such a severe head trauma that JBR would be able to eat anything, and i would think it knocked her unconscious?

She also has pieces of garland off the staircase in her hair...as if someone carried her down those stairs and the garland got caught up in her hair.

 

[Annapurna]

I am not sure where the head trauma to JBR happened, but i don't necessarily think it had to be upstairs. What's to say definitely where it occurred? It could well have happened in or near the basement couldn't it?
There was also no proof to my knowledge of a sexual assault on JB on the night she died. I believe it was made to look as if a sexually deviant intruder broke in and did those horrible things to JB to set the stage as to motive of why she died, and to take the onus off any of the Ramsey's having any involvement, because the old cliche that nice wealthy people in beautiful homes don't do things like that to their child. Keeping up appearances i imagine.
As to your question about the R's faking a sexual assault and then cleaning it up, that could be for a reason or reasons only known to whoever did that. Why do perps. do what they do when they kill? I guess we would have to be in their head to know, and thankfully most of us could never imagine what goes through their head, and who would want to? We try and rationalize such things because it is human nature to try and make sense of things even when they don't make sense.

There have been many experts in child sexual abuse who were consulted on this case, shown evidence from the autopsy and concluded that she was sexually assaulted that night and sometime previously. It's only this latest crop of stories where I've heard "she was never sexually assaulted". That is simply false. Whether or not you believe it was staging (which is so unlikely) she was still assaulted by someone. Her vaginal orifice was penetrated with something (not a male member). As noted by the medical examiner, it was consistent with digital penetration. This is sexual assault. She wasn't raped, but she was assaulted.

If it was supposed to be a sexual deviant (according to the staging) then why doesn't anything else at the scene suggest that? There was no evidence obvious to investigators that anything sexual took place until she was examined. If they were staging a pedofile they did a terrible job. If they were covering up a sexual assault, they did a pretty good job (as evidenced by the fact that not only did they get away with it, but people are still to this day doubting that she was assaulted).

The ransom note mentions several motives; money, revenge, politics/terrorism...but nothing sexual. No, "your beautiful daughter" no "your beauty queen" or anything even suggesting a sexual motive is in the RN... and please spare me the IDI tune of the author did that on purpose to throw off cops! Yes they did...away from a sexual assault because they didn't want anyone to even suggest that was what happened.

The sexual assault was most likely the primary reason the scene was cleaned up and staged. They didn't want anyone to know this happened. So they cleaned up the rather substantial amount of blood from her thighs, changed her panties, pulled up her pants and wrapped her in a blanket. They put no less than 3 layers between the evidence of the assault and investigators (until JR brought her upstairs). This was being hidden...if it didn't exist it wouldn't need to be hidden. If it didn't exist until the stager got there, it wouldn't need to be done to suggest sexual assault. If that was the intention there were much less evil ways of doing it. All they would have had to do is rumple her clothes (Say, put a shirt on backwards or have it pulled up, something turned inside out) then it would appear something sexual happened without anyone having to assault their own child. Besides, if they assaulted her as staging and she started bleeding...they would have known she was still alive. I do not believe the parents killed her with the cord after they found her. They would have no reason not to call 911 unless she was already dead and obviously sexually injured.

All of this is my opinion.

 

[Scandigirl]

Apologies if this turns up out of sequence in the thread- my iPad keeps playing up on this site, and I also need to learn how to quote people properly! So, not trying to derail current discussions! I'm responding to an interesting debate about whether Burke might have been able to reach the latch on the WC door, involving the possible use of the "magical moving chair", or the suitcase....

I had a possible lightbulb moment, as for years I've been baffled as to why JR kept making an issue about the moving chair blocking the doorway- even Lou Smit said it didn't make sense to him. Interesting that Burke could have used it to stand on, to reach the latch. JR could have either known or realised this, and being trying to create a cover story around the chair?

Does anyone else have any other good theories about the mystery chair? Burke could have used the suitcase too, or maybe another item to stand on, but either way- there's a strong possibility that he could have reached the latch? This could be really significant in all of us trying to piece together the sequence of events that night, the locations of where things might have happened, and what was staging or not?

UK Guy is obviously very knowledgable about the locations of the forensic evidence, and it's very interesting that he thinks Burke didn't go near the basement that night. Could well be the case, therefore ruling this possibility out? But, if Burke could reach the latch and if he did, then why would he need to? Could there be any possibility that he might have put JB's body in the WC? (I always presume that JR or PR did that, later on). If so, could one or both parents fhave actually found it in there? Did the parent(s) remove the body, and put it back in there again when they did the staging, or was there very little staging at all? That might raise the issue of what had been done to JB, prior to staging, when they found her?

Don't know if these possibilities/speculations are wildly off track, or maybe not in keeping with the known facts or forensic evidence, just interesting to ask about.

 

[RL2]

She also has pieces of garland off the staircase in her hair...as if someone carried her down those stairs and the garland got caught up in her hair.

Carried her down the stairs OR drug her down them protesting/fighting..

 

[kanzz]

Apologies if this turns up out of sequence in the thread- my iPad keeps playing up on this site, and I also need to learn how to quote people properly! So, not trying to derail current discussions! I'm responding to an interesting debate about whether Burke might have been able to reach the latch on the WC door, involving the possible use of the "magical moving chair", or the suitcase....I had a possible lightbulb moment, as for years I've been baffled as to why JR kept making an issue about the moving chair blocking the doorway- even Lou Smit said it didn't make sense to him. Interesting that Burke could have used it to stand on, to reach the latch. JR could have either known or realised this, and being trying to create a cover story around the chair?Does anyone else have any other good theories about the mystery chair? Burke could have used the suitcase too, or maybe another item to stand on, but either way- there's a strong possibility that he could have reached the latch? This could be really significant in all of us trying to piece together the sequence of events that night, the locations of where things might have happened, and what was staging or not? UK Guy is obviously very knowledgable about the locations of the forensic evidence, and it's very interesting that he thinks Burke didn't go near the basement that night. Could well be the case, therefore ruling this possibility out? But, if Burke could reach the latch and if he did, then why would he need to? Could there be any possibility that he might have put JB's body in the WC? (I always presume that JR or PR did that, later on). If so, could one or both parents fhave actually found it in there? Did the parent(s) remove the body, and put it back in there again when they did the staging, or was there very little staging at all? That might raise the issue of what had been done to JB, prior to staging, when they found her?Don't know if these possibilities/speculations are wildly off track, or maybe not in keeping with the known facts or forensic evidence, just interesting to ask about.

Interesting thought about the chair. It hadn't crossed my mind that BR might have tried to hide her in there, but I think it's possible. Although, I've always taken JR's statements with a grain of salt. Seems to me that he found fault in nearly every photo... this is out of place, that doesn't belong there, etc. I wonder how often he was really in that basement and how long he spent when he did go there. I do think BR was probably in the basement and that is where it probably all happened. Might have started in the train room. All speculation on my part.

[p.s., OT - I sometimes have difficulty with the "Reply with Quote" feature on my device. The work-around for me is to open it in a new tab. You might try that.]

 

[Annapurna]

Carried her down the stairs OR drug her down them protesting/fighting..

I think this is a bit of a "green herring" if you will. The Wine Cellar's offseason purpose was to store christmas decorations. It seems likely that the garland could have gotten in her hair when she was placed in there.

 

[UKGuy]

Apologies if this turns up out of sequence in the thread- my iPad keeps playing up on this site, and I also need to learn how to quote people properly! So, not trying to derail current discussions! I'm responding to an interesting debate about whether Burke might have been able to reach the latch on the WC door, involving the possible use of the "magical moving chair", or the suitcase....

I had a possible lightbulb moment, as for years I've been baffled as to why JR kept making an issue about the moving chair blocking the doorway- even Lou Smit said it didn't make sense to him. Interesting that Burke could have used it to stand on, to reach the latch. JR could have either known or realised this, and being trying to create a cover story around the chair?

Does anyone else have any other good theories about the mystery chair? Burke could have used the suitcase too, or maybe another item to stand on, but either way- there's a strong possibility that he could have reached the latch? This could be really significant in all of us trying to piece together the sequence of events that night, the locations of where things might have happened, and what was staging or not?

UK Guy is obviously very knowledgable about the locations of the forensic evidence, and it's very interesting that he thinks Burke didn't go near the basement that night. Could well be the case, therefore ruling this possibility out? But, if Burke could reach the latch and if he did, then why would he need to? Could there be any possibility that he might have put JB's body in the WC? (I always presume that JR or PR did that, later on). If so, could one or both parents fhave actually found it in there? Did the parent(s) remove the body, and put it back in there again when they did the staging, or was there very little staging at all? That might raise the issue of what had been done to JB, prior to staging, when they found her?

Don't know if these possibilities/speculations are wildly off track, or maybe not in keeping with the known facts or forensic evidence, just interesting to ask about.

Scandigirl,
We know BR was down in the wine-cellar on Christmas Day as Kolar said he opened the gifts that afternoon. So he knows how to gain access.

The chair is a JR legend as neither Fleet White or Officer French reported a chair which they had to encounter to gain access.

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-basement.htm

Lou Smit: "So you think that the chair would block the door and nobody would have gotten in there without moving it?"

John Ramsey: "Correct"

Lou Smit: "In other words, let's say that the intruder goes into the train room, gets out, let's say, that window?"

John Ramsey: "Uh huh."

Lou Smit: "How in effect would he get that chair to block that door, if that is the case, is what I'm saying?"

John Ramsey: "I don't know... I go down, I say, "Ooh, that door is blocked." I move the chair and went in the room."

Lou Smit: "So you couldn't have gotten in without moving the chair?"

John Ramsey: "Correct... I had to move the chair."

Lou Smit: "The thing I'm trying to figure out in my mind then is, if an intruder went through the door, he'd almost have to pull the chair behind him... because that would have been his exit... so that's not very logical as far as......"

John Ramsey: "I think it is. I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny clues around, they... are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left."

The broken window is another JR legend, i.e. something used to spin a story.

Also the suitcase is another JR legend and a red herring for many theorists who do not read up on the case.

Unknown to JR, Fleet White searched the basement early that morning, he moved the blue suitcase to beneath the window and placed a piece of broken glass on top of it, then he checked the wine-cellar and never saw JonBenet. So BR could have used the chair or suitcase to unlatch the wine-cellar door.

Here is an Occam BDI: BR assaults JonBenet in his bedroom, does some amateurish staging, then places JonBenet on her bed, i.e. bloodstained pillow, where she is found by either PR or JR, the rest is staging by the parents?

.

 

[Userid]

^ Respectfully, I'm confused: the suitcase was indeed down there and the window was indeed broken, so how are they "legends"?

Didn't JR search the basement before FW and law enforcement, or no?

Also, I mentioned a scenario similar to what you just brought up here in the other thread (who killed JBR); I'd love to get your (and anyone's) thoughts on it:

This may seem farfetched and I am new to this case, but this is what I think happened:

JR would assault JBR and it was a regular occurrence. This is why her room was so far away (at the other end of the house in her own wing) from both the master bedroom and BR's bedroom -- because it was secluded and contained a bathroom.

That night, PR caught him in the act or found out about it. She went to do the laundry that night, instead of the morning like she said, and uncovered the abuse then. They were fighting all night and BR clearly heard the commotion, but was told to never speak of it. It was a vicious fight between two parents and it occurred in the area outside JBR's bedroom or her actual bedroom itself.

JBR was either right there during the fight -- maybe even a part of the fight (in a verbal sense). Things had gotten physical between JR and PR. Maybe she was absolute frantic, screaming about what was transpiring.

PR, in an absolute rage about what she just found out, took out her emotions on JBR during the fight, striking her in the head with an object -- perhaps out of anger, perhaps with the intent to "calm her down" from the frantic fit she may have been throwing as her parents fought; perhaps both. I think that object -- whatever it was -- was disposed of in some way along with the paint brush part.

Once PR struck her, this snapped both parents out of rage and into shock. They frantically try to help JBR. Her responses are limited and there is obviously a problem, but she's still up. BR wakes up and goes to see what's going on. He's told to stay out of the bedroom (don't look at your sister), go to the kitchen and start preparing a snack, with the desperate hope to make JBR feel better and snap her out of it. As he prepares the snack, they bring JBR down and desperately try to feed her the pineapple. She gets one piece down somehow, but it's obvious it's in vein. BR is brought back to bed by John and told by him that everything will be okay, while PR feeds JBR the pineapple. Eventually, they try to take her up to bed again, but she's waning or has maybe even stopped breathing.

In order to hide the cardinal sins that both parents have committed to this child, it's decided what horrifically needs to be done to keep the family in tact. The paint brush was used to obscure the assault that was taking that very night, and the strangulation was used to obscure the initial blow to the head. They both get lawyers because they both know of the unforgivable sins they committed that night.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I misread your post. You said BR assaulted her in the bedroom; I thought you said JR, but nonetheless, the staging is similar.

 

[UKGuy]

^ Respectfully, I'm confused: the suitcase was indeed down there and the window was indeed broken, so how are they "legends"?

Didn't JR search the basement before FW and law enforcement, or no?

Also, I mentioned a scenario similar to what you just brought up here in the other thread (who killed JBR); I'd love to get your (and anyone's) thoughts on it:



EDIT: I'm sorry, I misread your post. You said BR assaulted her in the bedroom; I thought you said JR.

Userid,
They are legends precisely because JR is re-purposing them to fit his IDI theory. Check his story about the chair or the suitcase.

Your PDI is possible but I doubt PR would be feeding JonBenet pineapple. I reckon the pineapple alike the blue suitcase is a red herring, they played some role, possibly one that was incidental, but basically JonBenet was assaulted upstairs and staged downstairs by the parents?

.

 

[Charliegirl610]

Interesting thought about the chair. It hadn't crossed my mind that BR might have tried to hide her in there, but I think it's possible. Although, I've always taken JR's statements with a grain of salt. Seems to me that he found fault in nearly every photo... this is out of place, that doesn't belong there, etc. I wonder how often he was really in that basement and how long he spent when he did go there. I do think BR was probably in the basement and that is where it probably all happened. Might have started in the train room. All speculation on my part.

[p.s., OT - I sometimes have difficulty with the "Reply with Quote" feature on my device. The work-around for me is to open it in a new tab. You might try that.]

I think the chair that JR referred to was just another attempt at deflecting from the family. If the chair had to be moved to get in, it must have been placed from the other side of door... indicating it had to have been placed from someone exiting through the basement. Fleet was down there prior to JR and was easily able to enter without moving furniture to gain access. I just don't think BR placed JBR in the wine cellar. I honestly don't think he cared that he may have hurt JBR nevermind killed her. It's likely from the sounds of it BR never had consequences to any of his actions in the past, I just don't think he felt like he might be in trouble so he'd better hide her. Now maybe the wine cellar door was left open from the previous night when the Ramsey's retrieved all the hidden gifts to place under the tree.

 

[Userid]

I know he said there was a chair in front of them the train room and he had to move it to get into the train room, which doesn't make sense if there it was IDI because he couldn't have put the chair there after closing the door to the train room (and exiting from the way he came in, standing on the suit case and exiting through the broken window. At least, that's how I understand it anyway.

I never really thought about the pineapple being a part of the staging, but it's a very interesting theory. I always assumed that the pineapple was an afterthought for JR and PR -- they staged everything else but they weren't smart enough to know that the pineapple would show up in JBR's system; and they simply overlooked taking care of the bowl and the empty glass because they were running around staging everything else and the dining room was separate from the other areas of the house. I guess my question is, why would they stage the pineapple? It points directly to PR (and BR).