The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 3

[k-mac]

kolar has my undivided attention.
he has worked the case from all sides (including alex hunters investigation.....cough....fantasy) his opinion cant be dismissed.
don't think Thomas deserves the bagging he gets either. at the end of the day he might have been slightly off in his theory but wow PR sure gave him plenty to work with lets face it.
these hard working detectives have worked so tirelessly for justice for JBR lets not forget they are all good guys.:loveyou:

 

[PositiveLight]

kolar has my undivided attention.
he has worked the case from all sides (including alex hunters investigation.....cough....fantasy) his opinion cant be dismissed.
don't think Thomas deserves the bagging he gets either. at the end of the day he might have been slightly off in his theory but wow PR sure gave him plenty to work with lets face it.
these hard working detectives have worked so tirelessly for justice for JBR lets not forget they are all good guys.:loveyou:

Totally agree. Their hearts are in the right places.

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[BBB167893]

Thanks for all your replies SD. Very helpful and enlightening . Yep, I agree. Ignorant is probably a more suitable word and definitely lucky!

Insanely lucky, Dark Shadow. Lawrence Schiller once said that this was not a perfect murder by design; it was a perfect murder by accident.

I have been thinking about the fact JBR was at the scene and I really do feel as though they thought the first responding officers wouldn't bother searching the house as thoroughly as they did. I really think they intended to move her later on.

I've been thinking about that, too. Maybe there was a plan to move her, either before or after. But what I can't get past is Patsy. I can't see her agreeing to that.

RSBM. True, but that's not the point. If there was any chance of life, she was worth saving.

You're a better person than I am, Dark Shadow. With that kind of damage done, she probably would have been a vegetable. She wouldn't win any pageants that way.

 

[BBB167893]

There was probably little chance of life with the subdural hemorrhage and subaracnoid hemorrhage. But that doesn't explain why they wouldn't have called 911. As lay people, they wouldn't have known she probably wasn't salvageable - which further bolsters the BDI theory.

Side note: As an RN, I would not agree that any chance of life is worth saving. Please don't save me only to live in a vegetative state or to spend the rest of my days on a ventilator. There is such a thing as a living organism, and then there is - living. Damn, I hope to live til I die.

Boy, kanzz, did you nail it. If, God forbid, that ever happened to me, I can only hope that my brother would be man enough to kill me.

 

[kanzz]

Boy, kanzz, did you nail it. If, God forbid, that ever happened to me, I can only hope that my brother would be man enough to kill me.

Well, SuperDave, I think I have my bases covered. I have a very good friend who is a paramedic with whom I have had a death pact for about 25 years. I also have 2 kids who are also RNs that know my wishes. We all need to make sure we have our advance directives in place. It's never too early.

 

[BoldBear]

[smip] lets not forget they are all good guys.:loveyou:

But they were picking on the poor Ramseys who had no defence and has just lost their daughter. Doesn't anyone have any decency in this day and age? They couldn't even rely on their friends. :boohoo: They didn't even know they'd be suspects in their daughter's murder. I read that story again (this time in) Woodward's book and just can't figure-out how anyone would buy it. I don't care how out-of-your-head with grief you are. If anyone is found dead in your home, your a suspect.

 

[BBB167893]

Well, SuperDave, I think I have my bases covered. I have a very good friend who is a paramedic with whom I have had a death pact for about 25 years. I also have 2 kids who are also RNs that know my wishes. We all need to make sure we have our advance directives in place. It's never too early.

Like Ol' Blue Eyes said:

Gonna dance, gonna fly,
I'll take a chance riding high,
Before my number's up,
I'm gonna fill my cup,
I'm gonna live, live, live, until I die!

 

[Scandigirl]

Hi everyone, as Annapurna mentioned earlier, it is extremely unpalatable to think that Burke may have been involved in this crime at all, and especially beyond the initial head bash, or that he might have had serious intent. I often feel uncomfortable putting forward my thoughts and ideas along those lines, but I also think we would all rather try to get as close to the truth as we can, however, unpleasant. For me, and I'm sure for most others, whatever the "truth" about Burke- it's not about labelling him as an "evil monster", but having some level of compassion for him as an unfortunately disturbed boy.

Maybe that's why we all feel such a need to justify sharing our theories, although I felt the same when I used to think JDI and/or PDI, too!

Thinking about where it might have all started that night, it's interesting that UK Guy thinks it might have started in one of the bedrooms upstairs, and Kolar and Spitz think in the breakfast bar, then the basement...

Looking for clues, I wonder if the two drink cans found left in Burke's sink could possibly indicate that maybe Burke and JB might have shared them in Burke's room?

Or, as UK Guy pointed out, there was a droplet of blood found on JB's pillow that came from her bedroom? If her pillowcase hadn't been freshly washed, and was more than a day old, could the blood droplet have got onto the pillowcase through a previous, unrelated reason?

And also, did someone once mention evidence of cleaned up blood spatters showing (through the use of Luminol, I think?), around the table in the breakfast bar?

Sorry this is all in random, jumbled up order, but also, wasn't the cord or rope stored in a brown paper bag in JAR's room, next door to Burke's room?

Burke himself said that "someone took her quietly", and "tiptoed" down to the basement? And JB had fragments of green garland in her hair, which may indicate she was carried downstairs? Would Burke have been capable of carrying her downstairs on his own, whilst tiptoeing quietly?

UK Guy might be right that Burke and JB came into contact initially in one of their bedrooms, then moved down into the breakfast bar area?

I always feel I have the pieces of a huge jigsaw puzzle, but in all the wrong order, and wish someone could piece it all together for me!!

 

[Heymom]

Hi everyone, as Annapurna mentioned earlier, it is extremely unpalatable to think that Burke may have been involved in this crime at all, and especially beyond the initial head bash, or that he might have had serious intent. I often feel uncomfortable putting forward my thoughts and ideas along those lines, but I also think we would all rather try to get as close to the truth as we can, however, unpleasant. For me, and I'm sure for most others, whatever the "truth" about Burke- it's not about labelling him as an "evil monster", but having some level of compassion for him as an unfortunately disturbed boy.

Maybe that's why we all feel such a need to justify sharing our theories, although I felt the same when I used to think JDI and/or PDI, too!

Thinking about where it might have all started that night, it's interesting that UK Guy thinks it might have started in one of the bedrooms upstairs, and Kolar and Spitz think in the breakfast bar, then the basement...

Looking for clues, I wonder if the two drink cans found left in Burke's sink could possibly indicate that maybe Burke and JB might have shared them in Burke's room?

Or, as UK Guy pointed out, there was a droplet of blood found on JB's pillow that came from her bedroom? If her pillowcase hadn't been freshly washed, and was more than a day old, could the blood droplet have got onto the pillowcase through a previous, unrelated reason?

And also, did someone once mention evidence of cleaned up blood spatters showing (through the use of Luminol, I think?), around the table in the breakfast bar?

Sorry this is all in random, jumbled up order, but also, wasn't the cord or rope stored in a brown paper bag in JAR's room, next door to Burke's room?

Burke himself said that "someone took her quietly", and "tiptoed" down to the basement? And JB had fragments of green garland in her hair, which may indicate she was carried downstairs? Would Burke have been capable of carrying her downstairs on his own, whilst tiptoeing quietly?

UK Guy might be right that Burke and JB came into contact initially in one of their bedrooms, then moved down into the breakfast bar area?

I always feel I have the pieces of a huge jigsaw puzzle, but in all the wrong order, and wish someone could piece it all together for me!!

There are too many things we will never see..we can only speculate endlessly here...

But personally, I highly doubt that Burke could have carried Jon Benet down the basement stairs. He was taller than she was, but still a slender boy. And she would have been dead weight at that point. The physics just don't work for me.

As for the garland, Patsy said that the Christmas trees and decorations were stored in the WC.

 

[Ambitioned]

Looking for clues, I wonder if the two drink cans found left in Burke's sink could possibly indicate that maybe Burke and JB might have shared them in Burke's room?

Or Burke and a friend or some old cans he dumped in the sink. Were they tested?

 

[Heymom]

Boy, kanzz, did you nail it. If, God forbid, that ever happened to me, I can only hope that my brother would be man enough to kill me.

And I feel the opposite, how could I ask someone else to commit murder? No matter how grave the injury, a human being is NOT a "vegetable," and human life is valuable no matter what. I worked with kids who had severe brain trauma, and I suppose some people would have termed them not worth saving. They were individuals deserving of dignity and life...they could be funny, stubborn, mischievous, sweet, naughty, etc. just like any other kid. They just couldn't talk and walk and some couldn't eat except through a tube. They went to school, came home, ate snacks, watched TV, ate dinner, and went to bed just like any other kids. We took them to the park and on other field trips.

If we protected life more carefully, a lot that is wrong in the world would be righted. IMO.

 

[johnjay]

There are too many things we will never see..we can only speculate endlessly here...

But personally, I highly doubt that Burke could have carried Jon Benet down the basement stairs. He was taller than she was, but still a slender boy. And she would have been dead weight at that point. The physics just don't work for me.

While I think he might have been able to do it, it seems to me like an unlikely thing for him to do, or even attempt to do. Why? Kolar seems convinced of this- but that doesn't make it so - he also seems to think John discovered the body 11:00 that morning and I find that impossible to believe.

Kolar thinks Burke could have carried her downstairs by lifting her under her arms, perhaps that could work. It might explain why her arms were over her head, maybe they ended up that way when he put her back down on the floor. Kolar also hints that he has some secret information that explains why he thinks she was hit on the head on the first floor - I hope it's more than the pineapples.

As for the garland, Patsy said that the Christmas trees and decorations were stored in the WC.

 

[PositiveLight]

Well my opinion on how she got to the wine cellar IF she was killed or gravely injured upstairs would rule out BR being the one who moved her body. Keep in mind it was a spiral staircase. Those can be tricky when moving items. IMHO i don't think he really cared after she appeared dead. I don't see at this point a reason he would even move her. That in my opinion would show remorse or shame for his actions. I don't think he felt that then or even now. Plus have you ever tried to carry anything that is limp and literally dead weight? I can't imagine BR having the strength to even accomplish that. Maybe dragging her to another room possibly. But if he did drag her down the stairs, there would be evidence I would think of being dragged that far of a distance and down two flights of stairs. Plus the thumping would be loud also. I think the parents moved the body to the wine cellar. I think they did the final staging outside of the wine cellar. The garland would probably be transfer from either brushing against the stair rails covered in it or from the wine cellar. Garland is messy and leaves droppings everywhere. It's even possible that there was garland pieces on the floor in the kitchen to be honest. I think the garland isn't really important in the scheme of things. I too feel like its a huge puzzle and wish that we could make all the pieces fit perfectly.
What I would love to have is someone on here trained in behavior analyzing and techniques to go through the interviews and tell us what they see that maybe we are missing. Like a professional body language expert. That would be awesome! To be able to pick apart their interviews and clue in on when exactly they are being deceptive and look at possible scenerios that maybe we haven't even thought of. I truly think their body language during interviews will give us the true clues to what they DON'T want questioned. What they are avoiding answering. THAT is where we may find the truth. One day I want to sit down and go through all of their interviews and jot down the moments when they seem uncomfortable or they answer a question with a question or point away from the question. Right now I'm busy doing the transcripts of DP interviews. I think the MOST frustrating thing is ALL of the people who interviewed them didn't follow up with proper questioning to the answers they gave or called them out on their BS. Anyway..... Good afternoon everyone! <3

 

[Scandigirl]

Or Burke and a friend or some old cans he dumped in the sink. Were they tested?

Hi Ambitioned, thanks for your question. I've no idea if they were tested or not, unless anyone else knows? It does sound more likely that they were used by Burke and a friend, as it's harder to imagine Jonbenet drinking straight from a can! Could always be a remote possibility, though.

 

[Scandigirl]

Thanks also to Heymom, johnjay and positive light for your replies.

Heymom, I think you're right, that we will unfortunately never know the answer to many of the questions we wonder about! Thanks for your info about the garland- that is something I didn't know before!

I feel just as doubtful about Burke being able to physically carry Jonbenet, especially down any type of stairs (although I could be wrong), and I'm not sure there's any evidence that she was dragged/half lifted from under her arms?

I'm trying to work out if she was initially struck upstairs in a bedroom, because then how would Burke get her to the breakfast bar area? Or, if she was struck in the breakfast bar area, how would he then get her downstairs to the basement and/or WC?

So... If he couldn't, then maybe that rules either of those type of scenarios out? I just don't know... It would have been so helpful if the CBS experts had done a test to see if the 10 year old actor could physically lift a 6 year old girl! But, I agree with everyone that I struggle to imagine it.

I keep wondering about Burke's own words that "someone" "took her quietly" either downstairs, or down into the basement. It makes me wonder if he might have witnessed it, or been told afterwards, unless he did do it himself, who knows? Also, maybe it's just me overthinking as usual, but "took her quietly"'almost comes across as if she was asleep or unconscious or carried, but that's just pure speculation on my part. The simplest answer is most likely that Burke struck JB on the head, and then just left her where she was, as Positive Light has said!

Apologies for rambling about things that no one can necessarily answer!

 

[Annapurna]

Well my opinion on how she got to the wine cellar IF she was killed or gravely injured upstairs would rule out BR being the one who moved her body. Keep in mind it was a spiral staircase. Those can be tricky when moving items. IMHO i don't think he really cared after she appeared dead. I don't see at this point a reason he would even move her. That in my opinion would show remorse or shame for his actions. I don't think he felt that then or even now. Plus have you ever tried to carry anything that is limp and literally dead weight? I can't imagine BR having the strength to even accomplish that. Maybe dragging her to another room possibly. But if he did drag her down the stairs, there would be evidence I would think of being dragged that far of a distance and down two flights of stairs. Plus the thumping would be loud also. I think the parents moved the body to the wine cellar. I think they did the final staging outside of the wine cellar. The garland would probably be transfer from either brushing against the stair rails covered in it or from the wine cellar. Garland is messy and leaves droppings everywhere. It's even possible that there was garland pieces on the floor in the kitchen to be honest. I think the garland isn't really important in the scheme of things. I too feel like its a huge puzzle and wish that we could make all the pieces fit perfectly.
What I would love to have is someone on here trained in behavior analyzing and techniques to go through the interviews and tell us what they see that maybe we are missing. Like a professional body language expert. That would be awesome! To be able to pick apart their interviews and clue in on when exactly they are being deceptive and look at possible scenerios that maybe we haven't even thought of. I truly think their body language during interviews will give us the true clues to what they DON'T want questioned. What they are avoiding answering. THAT is where we may find the truth. One day I want to sit down and go through all of their interviews and jot down the moments when they seem uncomfortable or they answer a question with a question or point away from the question. Right now I'm busy doing the transcripts of DP interviews. I think the MOST frustrating thing is ALL of the people who interviewed them didn't follow up with proper questioning to the answers they gave or called them out on their BS. Anyway..... Good afternoon everyone! <3

I've always thought important insight could be gained from watching them very carefully. I watched the deposition of both JR & PR, it was interesting but feels super coached. I will have to go through again and make notes where I see them acting any different.


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[UKGuy]

He has no power to do so, as the statute of limitations has run out on the case and he has no jurisdiction.

The only way we will ever find out any more than any of us knows is if a lawsuit by Lin Wood ever makes it to trial. That will be interesting. I am sure we agree on that at least.

Heymom,
It sure would. If Spitz doesn't back down maybe he can get the True Bills unsealed as part of his case. Also another GJ could be convened, but that would take lots $$

.

 

[PositiveLight]

Thanks also to Heymom, johnjay and positive light for your replies.

Heymom, I think you're right, that we will unfortunately never know the answer to many of the questions we wonder about! Thanks for your info about the garland- that is something I didn't know before!

I feel just as doubtful about Burke being able to physically carry Jonbenet, especially down any type of stairs (although I could be wrong), and I'm not sure there's any evidence that she was dragged/half lifted from under her arms?

I'm trying to work out if she was initially struck upstairs in a bedroom, because then how would Burke get her to the breakfast bar area? Or, if she was struck in the breakfast bar area, how would he then get her downstairs to the basement and/or WC?

So... If he couldn't, then maybe that rules either of those type of scenarios out? I just don't know... It would have been so helpful if the CBS experts had done a test to see if the 10 year old actor could physically lift a 6 year old girl! But, I agree with everyone that I struggle to imagine it.

I keep wondering about Burke's own words that "someone" "took her quietly" either downstairs, or down into the basement. It makes me wonder if he might have witnessed it, or been told afterwards, unless he did do it himself, who knows? Also, maybe it's just me overthinking as usual, but "took her quietly"'almost comes across as if she was asleep or unconscious or carried, but that's just pure speculation on my part. The simplest answer is most likely that Burke struck JB on the head, and then just left her where she was, as Positive Light has said!

Apologies for rambling about things that no one can necessarily answer!

No need to apologize! We are all wondering the same things! I think it is important to keep these questions going and not let them fall by the wayside. I think the devil is in the details. The details is what will solve this case and who played what role. I just don't think BR could carry or drag her for very long. He may have been taller but he was skinny. So that in my humble opinion leaves mama and daddy cleaning it all up. I think they (JonBenet and Burke) may have ate pineapple together before going upstairs or downstairs. It could have been the trigger that set BR off too. Not ruling that out. I think he truly got triggered Christmas morning when he saw that unisex colored bike and thought it was his. Only to find out it was JonBenet's. I think he had a meltdown that morning and it brewed all day. I think the family friends witnessed it at the party that night and that's what FW and friends are keeping quiet. I wouldn't be surprised if her was threatening her at the party. Maybe Burke fixed himself a bowl of pineapple and tea and JonBenet snuck a piece and he just boiled over. Maybe she ran upstairs and he followed suit. It went downhill from there. At some point either the parents found JonBenet or BR told them and the scene was staged and body moved. I think its probably pretty simple if you look at all the big pieces. The small pieces may never fit or maybe occurred at different times than we are speculating. BUT the pineapple and the head wound do point to a time "frame". We need to work around that evidence in my opinion. We have a time window they arrived home. We have a time window in how long she had ate the pineapple before her death. We have a time window for how long her head injury occurred before death. The vaginal area was compromised evidence wise when thinking of a time frame. Movement of the body after the fact can cause blood that was possibly further up in her vagina to leak to the lower areas and panties. Even after being cleaned up. Say for example they redressed her in her bedroom, then carried her to the wine cellar. If JR carried her over his shoulder, gravity would make fluids in the vagina leak out. They may not have even checked her down there once she was downstairs outside of the wine cellar. Then they applied the final ligature which ended her life (they probably thought she was already deceased). Her bladder released and unknown to them they wrapped her in the blanket and set the stage. This was her final "pose" she was found in. Then PR wrote the book I mean ransom note. They THOUGHT they had covered all the bases. If the intial investigators had taken over the scene as they should have done and removed everyone, this case would have been solved long ago. Makes me so angry that money has kept JonBenet from receiving justice. JMOO

 

[johnjay]

Thanks also to Heymom, johnjay and positive light for your replies.

Heymom, I think you're right, that we will unfortunately never know the answer to many of the questions we wonder about! Thanks for your info about the garland- that is something I didn't know before!

I feel just as doubtful about Burke being able to physically carry Jonbenet, especially down any type of stairs (although I could be wrong), and I'm not sure there's any evidence that she was dragged/half lifted from under her arms?

I'm trying to work out if she was initially struck upstairs in a bedroom, because then how would Burke get her to the breakfast bar area? Or, if she was struck in the breakfast bar area, how would he then get her downstairs to the basement and/or WC?

So... If he couldn't, then maybe that rules either of those type of scenarios out? I just don't know... It would have been so helpful if the CBS experts had done a test to see if the 10 year old actor could physically lift a 6 year old girl! But, I agree with everyone that I struggle to imagine it.

I keep wondering about Burke's own words that "someone" "took her quietly" either downstairs, or down into the basement. It makes me wonder if he might have witnessed it, or been told afterwards, unless he did do it himself, who knows? Also, maybe it's just me overthinking as usual, but "took her quietly"'almost comes across as if she was asleep or unconscious or carried, but that's just pure speculation on my part. The simplest answer is most likely that Burke struck JB on the head, and then just left her where she was, as Positive Light has said!

Apologies for rambling about things that no one can necessarily answer!

Kolar was so intent on having Burke mover her into the basement that on one of Tricia's radio programs he suggested that Burke could have slid her down the stairs using the blanket. I don't know what to make of that.

Why do folks think her arms were stretched out above her head?

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks also to Heymom, johnjay and positive light for your replies.

Heymom, I think you're right, that we will unfortunately never know the answer to many of the questions we wonder about! Thanks for your info about the garland- that is something I didn't know before!

I feel just as doubtful about Burke being able to physically carry Jonbenet, especially down any type of stairs (although I could be wrong), and I'm not sure there's any evidence that she was dragged/half lifted from under her arms?

I'm trying to work out if she was initially struck upstairs in a bedroom, because then how would Burke get her to the breakfast bar area? Or, if she was struck in the breakfast bar area, how would he then get her downstairs to the basement and/or WC?

So... If he couldn't, then maybe that rules either of those type of scenarios out? I just don't know... It would have been so helpful if the CBS experts had done a test to see if the 10 year old actor could physically lift a 6 year old girl! But, I agree with everyone that I struggle to imagine it.

I keep wondering about Burke's own words that "someone" "took her quietly" either downstairs, or down into the basement. It makes me wonder if he might have witnessed it, or been told afterwards, unless he did do it himself, who knows? Also, maybe it's just me overthinking as usual, but "took her quietly"'almost comes across as if she was asleep or unconscious or carried, but that's just pure speculation on my part. The simplest answer is most likely that Burke struck JB on the head, and then just left her where she was, as Positive Light has said!

Apologies for rambling about things that no one can necessarily answer!

Scandigirl,
When the TV companies decide to run a Ramsey documentary or any other crime themed series, they want a gripping, dramatic narrative, something to sell ads against.

So the participating detectives have to come up with the theories and I reckon they mostly fit the evidence to their theories, not always, but most of the time.

So in the CBS case we have Spitz and Kolar contributing aspects of their respective theories, so to pad out the narrative, i.e. JonBenet steals a piece of pineapple. Instead of theorizing did JonBenet have her own bowl of pineapple, which she ate, then wanted to go upstairs?

JonBenet could have been situated at four crime scenes the night she was killed, i.e. BR's bedroom, her own bedroom, the kitchen, and the basement.

So it could all have taken place in BR's bedroom, then he moved her to her own bedroom, did some minimal staging. Think about this everyone, could BR have done enough staging so that his parents were never sure what took place?

JonBenet was moved down to the kitchen area, this is possibly the interlude between the head blow and the asphyxiation, the pillow might have been used to comfort JonBenet, then she was moved down to the basement where the final staging took place.

If BR is going to intentionally assault JonBenet it will not be in a semi-public area like the breakfast bar. It will be in a location he has confidence in, i.e. his own bedroom, a location JonBenet willingly visits at night.

.