The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18

[MaryMac250]

So let's say that the truth is close to the scenario suggested last night - BDI-accidental, parental cover up, no sexual misconduct.

I know that people here really dislike the Ramseys. But personally, under those circumstances, I would feel nothing but empathy for them. I'm not saying everything they did was right or wise or kind. But to me, it would be outweighed by the incredibly horror that they found that morning.

I'm less empathetic to Alex Hunter, because I can't tell if his motives were entirely political, or alternatively if he knew what happened and his actions were also merciful. But I would agree with him, I don't think (in this scenario) it would be a realistically prosecutable case against the parents. I doubt you would be able to find 12 people to convict the Ramseys for protecting their son under those circumstances. And ultimately, I'm not sure that justice would be served by imprisoning them, honestly. I don't think JBR would have wanted to see her entire family go to jail for what happened.

Obviously, if you change the factors I listed at the beginning of the post, then my opinion could change.

At the very least, bringing them to trial would have saved 20 years of wasted LE effort. Also, it would have brought to the public arena the risk of letting a very sick child continue on with clearly destructive behavior...something must be done to address our ignoring of these kids until they kill someone. As for AH, his concern was only for himself. This is also a big part of the problem.

 

[MaryMac250]

I think the parents were aware that there was a jealousy of JB from Burke, and they likely felt a little responsible for that. Once JB was out of the picture Burke was probably fine.

Yeah, he's fine. He just got on with his life. You kidding me?

 

[bxbbysoxer]

I think Kolar looked uncomfortable mostly and sometimes very uncomfortable, and I don't blame him as the CBS production is astonishingly provocative. They must be hoping legal action will be taken.

I don't know if they're hoping for it, but they probably expect it. Whether LW has a basis or not, he'll probably still go for it just on principle at this point. Regardless of the fact that going hard after something which supports BDI kind of works against the Ramseys, at least in the public eye.

I don't know if that's just how Kolar is, or if he didn't want to be there, but it felt like everything he did say was very measured. As well as that, he's one guy who's seen everything working with a lot of people who don't have total access, isn't he? What I figured was that he was making sure he didn't say anything that wasn't supposed to be released to the public.

 

[reintarnation]

I know you believe that and I respect your viewpoint even though I do not agree with it.

Touch DNA has long been proved as credible for many years and suspects have been arrested and convicted when touch DNA evidence was left behind. The touch DNA held up on appeals as well.

I haven't seen any proof this was transference. It is very consistent with it belonging to the murderer of JB especially the specific locations where the same male DNA was found on her garments.

With all due respect (and I do appreciate your input and civility here), I want to point out that while you are correct in many ways, you are neglecting the known pitfalls of DNA and especially tDNA.

Below are some articles from reputable sources detailing the science behind tDNA and providing several cases in which tDNA played a role in wrongfully convicting someone. But first, it's critical to remember that while we have the technology to extract tDNA, we don't have the scientific knowledge to fully understand its meaning. When tDNA is found on a body or in a crime scene, it does not automatically mean that it belongs to the killer. Finding DNA is science, but interpreting it and its relevance in a crime is subjective.

Further, the reliability of the tDNA depends on the lab, technicians, and their standards of practice. The tDNA in JBR's case was only tested once, and several items relevant to the crime (such as the cord, garrote, and flashlight) were never tested at all. Newer, more sensitive technology exists that could improve the quality of the tNDA sample that was found and potentially find more. What's the harm in retesting, especially if it could provide better and more samples? Wouldn't that benefit everyone, regardless if IDI or RDI?

In JBR's case, there are several unidentified profiles found on her body, clothing, and elements of the crime scene. Fiber evidence, fingerprints, and complete DNA of the family were also found. Why are two samples of microscopic, incomplete tDNA (alleles were added in the lab to make the sample complete enough for calling it an actual profile) more compelling than any of the other biological evidence?

I am not saying that that the tDNA is insignificant, but I don't think that the case hinges on it to the exclusion of all the other evidence that points in another direction. Additionally, it is hard for me to argue that the tDNA is irrefutable proof of an intruder when so many experts have risked their reputations stating otherwise.

One little example about DNA testing in JBR's case that gives me additional cause for concern: The ME admitted to using clippers on JBR's fingernails that had not been sterilized and had been used on other bodies before hers. This contaminated the DNA found under her fingernails and resulted in several different profiles being located. If there was this amount of contamination during the autopsy, then we can't be certain that biological evidence collected from her body and clothing during that examination wasn't also contaminated. We simply can't be sure, and in lieu of certainty, we can't say that the matching tDNA profile convicts or exonerates anyone. This tDNA by itself would never hold up in court.

Here are the articles as promised:
Science Magazine http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/when-dna-snares-innocent
The Atlantic http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/a-reasonable-doubt/480747/
Fusion http://fusion.net/story/153996/can-...-imprecise-science-of-a-proven-courtroom-tool
The Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/9115916/The-case-against-DNA.html
Popular Mechanics http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/a720/3010536/

 

[andreww]

I felt the same way. But Kolar has said he is very shy and unlike several of the others (yeah, I'm looking at you, Henry and Werner) he does not have TV experience.

I know for a fact that Kolar dent agree with everything that was put out there but how can you? He agrees with the basic premise that was agreed upon. All the people on the panel wanted to show a united front, so why argue insignificant points? Lets not forget that 2 hours were cut out, and according to Lin Wood it was due to legal threats he made against Kolar.

 

[Karinna]

I think the parents were aware that there was a jealousy of JB from Burke, and they likely felt a little responsible for that. Once JB was out of the picture Burke was probably fine.

Maybe at the time, but i think he might of paid the consequences as an adult if he has a conscience? Knowing his anger/jealousy killed his sister. How would you live with that?

 

[leelee114]

So let's say that the truth is close to the scenario suggested last night - BDI-accidental, parental cover up, no sexual misconduct.

I know that people here really dislike the Ramseys. But personally, under those circumstances, I would feel nothing but empathy for them. I'm not saying everything they did was right or wise or kind. But to me, it would be outweighed by the incredibly horror that they found that morning.

I'm less empathetic to Alex Hunter, because I can't tell if his motives were entirely political, or alternatively if he knew what happened and his actions were also merciful. But I would agree with him, I don't think (in this scenario) it would be a realistically prosecutable case against the parents. I doubt you would be able to find 12 people to convict the Ramseys for protecting their son under those circumstances. And ultimately, I'm not sure that justice would be served by imprisoning them, honestly. I don't think JBR would have wanted to see her entire family go to jail for what happened.

Obviously, if you change the factors I listed at the beginning of the post, then my opinion could change.

I can feel pity for what they felt they needed to do and even on some level understand why. But they didn't just try to cover up for Burke they purposefully tried to blame so many innocent people. Innocent people have had their names dragged through the mud because of the Ramsey's and that is one reason I loathe them. They are one vile family.

 

[Karinna]

I can feel pity for what they felt they needed to do and even on some level understand why. But they didn't just try to cover up for Burke they purposefully tried to blame so many innocent people. Innocent people have had their names dragged through the mud because of the Ramsey's and that is one reason I loathe them. They are one vile family.

Yes that definitely wasn't right what they did in that regard.

 

[bxbbysoxer]

I can feel pity for what they felt they needed to do and even on some level understand why. But they didn't just try to cover up for Burke they purposefully tried to blame so many innocent people. Innocent people have had their names dragged through the mud because of the Ramsey's and that is one reason I loathe them. They are one vile family.

IMHO this moved from being just protecting their child to protecting the reputation of their family by denying their child the help he very obviously needed and slandering every one of their friends who ever said anything against them. Truly disgusting people.

 

[liz b.]

I am stuck on the logistics. If it was BR, and he was alone downstairs when he killed JBR, what happened next ? When, and where did the parents find JBR's body ? Who tied the slip knots on the garrote ? I am not sure how this could have been " an accident " ? Someone hit her hard enough to fracture her skull. Did BR kill his sister, then go back to bed ? If so, who got up and found her ? I am also not able to imagine the parents going on living with BR in their home. If his anger was deep enough to kill his sibling, no one was safe. I think there is a whole lot about BR that is not known. jmo

 

[MaryMac250]

Was Burke in therapy before the murder. With the feces problem, you would think so. We probably will never know.

 

[Dogface]

I think BR's anger/hate was with his sister because she stole away the attention from him, IMO. And wasn't he in therapy?

I think the parents were aware that there was a jealousy of JB from Burke, and they likely felt a little responsible for that. Once JB was out of the picture Burke was probably fine.

Maybe that's it, but, I feel like that is trusting a dog that already has attacked someone. I just can't imagine ever feeling comfortable with him. Not to mention the feelings of resentment, not only for killing his sister, but basically turned the world against you and putting you under a microscope for something you didn't do. But I also realize families sweep all sorts of things under rugs, and carry on, which must be one hell of a coping mechanism rooted in all sorts of mental health issues.

 

[ElleElle]

The CBS part 2 was very eye opening to me as I closely watched BR. When you watch him very closely and focus only on him he is very sneaky and makes the snide laughs and giggles as he thinks he is getting away with lying to the interviewers. He treated the interviews like a big game and he had some obvious "tells" when he was lying.
He also told a lot of truths as well but did it smartly without giving much information to them. He is one really smart kid at that age.

The "tells" for me was mainly these:

-he would end with "you know" when he wanted the interviewer to believe more in what he was saying
-he would squirm and move his body around during some of the lies
-he would giggle and laugh after some of the lies

When he said "i know what happened". OMG that was when I knew he did it for sure.

All my observations exactly, and the "if I had secrets, I wouldn't tell you anyways" bit.

I really really hope more of those interro videos come out, as I want to see more of his odd behavior and admissions pointing towards his presence of the incident.

 

[Dogface]

Also, where is the feces info regarding BR coming from? I'm sorry if I missed it. Been very hard to keep up, my FIL is about to pass and we have just been all over and scattered.

 

[bxbbysoxer]

Was Burke in therapy before the murder. With the feces problem, you would think so. We probably will never know.

Didn't they have a family therapist? I'm heading off for the night now, but I can try and find more in the morning.

 

[MaryMac250]

I am stuck on the logistics. If it was BR, and he was alone downstairs when he killed JBR, what happened next ? When, and where did the parents find JBR's body ? Who tied the slip knots on the garrote ? I am not sure how this could have been " an accident " ? Someone hit her hard enough to fracture her skull. Did BR kill his sister, then go back to bed ? If so, who got up and found her ? I am also not able to imagine the parents going on living with BR in their home. If his anger was deep enough to kill his sibling, no one was safe. I think there is a whole lot about BR that is not known. jmo

All good questions. As to the last big one, they were sure they could control him; no one else understood him, etc. Sandy Hook killer ring a bell. Heck! That mom bought her son guns....cause she thought he needed a hobby.

 

[Karinna]

Was Burke in therapy before the murder. With the feces problem, you would think so. We probably will never know.

From what i have read here JBR was prone to soiling, and there are some quite conflicting reports on sexual abuse as well
(quote)
Soiling. Holly Smith, head of Boulder County Sexual Abuse team, stated had found fecal staining in all of JBR's panties on the 3rd day of the investigation; in 2006 she stated: "There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith....While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions."
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682469/Evidence of Prior Sexual Abuse

 

[ElleElle]

I have a problem with it being an inside job. I just can't write that script once Burke hits Jonbenet, and the parents find her. Let's look at that. They find Burke has hit her, her eyes are rolling and she is brain dead. So Mum or Dad goes out and ties a rope around her neck and finishes the job. And Mum goes off to write the ransom note. About 6/7 hours later they ring the police. They have not slept. For then next decade, not one of them, no matter the pressure bought to bear, confesses. Surely after all that time, one of them would have turned on the the other two. If the cover up was the mother's idea, the father would eventually break down, and vice versa. The boy would be much more traumatized if he did it and lived through all that. Unless he had a major personality disorder - which has never come out. Being awkward and shy is hardly the same as being a psychopath.

The mother finds her dying daughter and garrotes her to cover up an accident?!

If such a thing happened, the parents would be in hysterics, trying mouth to mouth (DNA), calling for help. The boy would be totally traumatized by the consequenses of what he did, and his parents reactions. The parents would convince themselves it was an accident as they explained what happened to the police. This approximations sort of rings true. The cover-up script makes no sense regarding basic human nature.

This family was dysfunctional to the highest degree. Perhaps they knew right away she was dead (not breathing, no heartbeat). I am certain they scrambled around for at least 5 hours before calling 911.

Their 6 year old pageant princess daughter killed in their home on Xmas day night? That itself, would of ruined their picture perfect image.

All JMO.

 

[Hatfield]

I can feel pity for what they felt they needed to do and even on some level understand why. But they didn't just try to cover up for Burke they purposefully tried to blame so many innocent people. Innocent people have had their names dragged through the mud because of the Ramsey's and that is one reason I loathe them. They are one vile family.

Thats the part that bothered me too even way back when this happened to JBR. Its one thing to claim innocence but it is quite another to throw others under the bus to keep from getting into trouble.

Last night they had the lady friend who told how she was shunned by the Rs just because she wanted to tell the truth to LE and media interviews. I found her to be very truthful in what she was saying. She said the Rs went on a mission to control people they knew and you either agreed to what they wanted or were shunned. .

Contrast that to listening to the Rs and I dont feel that truthfullness coming through.

I feel really sorry for the Rs in having to deal with their kids but when bad things happen you dont throw innocents under the bus.

 

[cubbeegirl]

I think the parents were aware that there was a jealousy of JB from Burke, and they likely felt a little responsible for that. Once JB was out of the picture Burke was probably fine.

Until someone else comes into the picture he is jealous of ....