The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18

[SandyQLS]

Not disagreeing with you SandyQLS, I'm still either BDI or PDI. Do you think if it was Patsy, she hit JonBenet with the flashlight?

Yes. IIRC the flashlight and even the batteries in the flashlight had been wiped clean of all fingerprints. I have always thought PDI, but I do think the BDI posters have identified the only other option for suspect.

A problem I have with the BDI theory was brought up by the CO lawyer interviewed. JR and PR are not ignorant people but they would not know those details about Infants under age 10 lacking intent by definition in CO law. But even lacking that info, if the death was merely the result of children's horseplay then JR and PR should have understood that honesty would be the best policy. For an affluent family without abuse or drugs/alcohol or history of arrests or CPS involvement, the result would only have been a family court judge demanding counseling for BR to age 18 - even if BDI in a rage rather than as play accident. BR would only have been removed temporarily to a psych hospital if he was removed at all. These kinds of accidents happen every day where Infants push, run, pick up a gun, hit another child intentionally or not, and some child is injured or dies. Why bother hiding it?

The staging and coverup is partly what makes me think the person who caused JBR's death was an adult because an adult is going to be held fully culpable. The dualing grand jury indictments tell me that the parents were giving such conflicting statements that LE was unclear on which parent did the murder, and which parent assisted in the coverup - not the show's implication that there was a 3rd party and that BDI. JMO the dualing grand jury indictments are meant to push the assistant into telling the whole truth against the killer to save themself, JR versus PR.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I am very interested in BR's nonchalant detachment to his description of PR acting "psycho". IMO PR is one of those women who never has a hair out of place in public, but is a rage-aholic in private losing control often over minor things. JR is a successful businessman, likely a workaholic, and never home. PR ruled her roost, and BR's manner suggests PR being "psycho" or in a rage was not unusual in the home, regardless of JR's CNN interview statement about them being "gentle people". PR is an entirely different creature from her public persona when she is in the LE interview, certainly not a gentle church mom.

I disagree with the conclusion of the CBS show that BDI - I am more convinced than ever that PR did it in a "psycho" fit over the imperfection of bedwetting and/or eating pineapple with the long hours and stress of holiday activities plus the trip she still needed to pack for the whole family at the last minute. PR was living so vicariously through JBR and the beauty pageant activities, but that is a two-edged sword from a mother like that and JBR was overindulged but would also be the object of PR's feelings of failure and rage.

One other disappointment with the show - even though they replayed the CNN interview clips, none of them mention how phony PR is with "Hold your babies close" her face is crumpled but she cannot find tears, and her anger display statement to the imaginary killer is just as poor - PR is a very bad actress. The show participants seemed to find her sincere, but I see a neurotic and manipulative woman living in many lies and very skilled at putting on a phony face.

I agree!

 

[txsvicki]

What he said about probably hearing if someone hit JonBenet with a flashlite. Experts, I believe Spitzer, has said that there would have been a very loud noise when the skull was hit and fractured. Burke must realize this now at his age, but as a child he said whoever did it took her down quietly and tiptoeing downstairs.

 

[Tortoise]

I've thought it odd that Patsy told the police in 1998 she didn't pack a suitcase for their planned trip that day, she was gathering clothes together for all of them in a plastic bag when she 'found' the ransom note. She said they were only going for a couple of days or so and they had clothes at the lake house. Now this was their first winter trip to the lake house, previously they had only spent summers there. So to me it seems clear they wouldn't have stored winter clothes at the lake house, and also children quickly grow out of clothes, so why leave any behind? There was a plastic bag of items dumped at the bottom of the spiral staircase, photographed that morning by police, and she said that was probably it, that she had dropped it to read the note.

I wasn't 100% certain from the interview transcript but it seemed to me that after giving her explanation for the plastic bag, the police then confronted her with a photograph taken on her own camera by someone in the family on Christmas morning, which showed the same bag she had referred to in the exact same spot already, and couldn't have been the plastic bag she was filling with clothes. She was stumped by this and couldn't work out who in the family would have taken a photo of just the hallway, but more to the point it blew her explanation.

 

[TeaTime]

Yes. IIRC the flashlight and even the batteries in the flashlight had been wiped clean of all fingerprints. I have always thought PDI, but I do think the BDI posters have identified the only other option for suspect.

A problem I have with the BDI theory was brought up by the CO lawyer interviewed. JR and PR are not ignorant people but they would not know those details about Infants under age 10 lacking intent by definition in CO law. But even lacking that info, if the death was merely the result of children's horseplay then JR and PR should have understood that honesty would be the best policy. For an affluent family without abuse or drugs/alcohol or history of arrests or CPS involvement, the result would only have been a family court judge demanding counseling for BR to age 18 - even if BDI in a rage rather than as play accident. BR would only have been removed temporarily to a psych hospital if he was removed at all. These kinds of accidents happen every day where Infants push, run, pick up a gun, hit another child intentionally or not, and some child is injured or dies. Why bother hiding it?

The staging and coverup is partly what makes me think the person who caused JBR's death was an adult because an adult is going to be held fully culpable. The dualing grand jury indictments tell me that the parents were giving such conflicting statements that LE was unclear on which parent did the murder, and which parent assisted in the coverup - not the show's implication that there was a 3rd party and that BDI. JMO the dualing grand jury indictments are meant to push the assistant into telling the whole truth against the killer to save themself, JR versus PR.

Neither were charged with first degree murder in the indictment, just being an accessory to it. So you have 3 live people in the house and 2 are accessories to FDM. That tells you who the GJ thought committed the crime - Burke.

 

[Frigga]

Whatever else one comes away with after last night's final segment on CBS or the DP shows, Burke Ramsey has come across as an odd duck. Odd as a kid and odd as an adult.

He sneaked downstairs, alone, in the dark, after everyone else was in bed. Sorry, this is odd. Most kids get creeped-out in darkened houses at night and do not wander around, but Burke had no natural fear of even going into the basement alone in the dark. This is abnormal.

He had HiTech hiking boots. "I was always in the basement, what does that print prove?" eew He was defending the boot print which was at one time a major bit of evidence in Lou Smit's intruder theory. I guess Lou was never told that he had these hiking boots. Apparently, LW still hadn't heard about the boots since he claimed on DP that none of the Rs ever owned a pair of these boots. Burke contradicted him, the man who had defended the family for decades, with his own hubris. Why did the Rs lie about he boots? Because of the print in the WC. They never said "well, yes he had a pair of those boots but he was always playing in the basement so that print could have been put there at any time". They lied because they know he was in the WC THAT night.

He maybe had pineapple. "Can you remember what you ate 20 years ago?" I think yes, if that was the last thing you ate before you sister's murdered corpse was found in your house. At age 10, he froze in panic when shown the photo of the bowl of pineapple, knelt on his hands on the chair and went blank. When asked to ID what was in the photo, he ID'd the table, the iced tea glass but refused to ID the bowl of pineapple, saying only "oh". It was chilling. "What was JonBenet's favorite snack?" asked the interviewer, "she didn't have a snack" he replied. That was a wow moment for me. Why did he freeze at the sight of the bowl of pineapple? Because it was a big part of what happened that night and may have been the catalyst for the violent attack on JBR. She didn't have a snack, but he did. As in, "this is mine, not yours". He remembers that she didn't get a snack that night likely because she stole a chunk of pineapple form his bowl and it enraged him. She touched his food.

Judith Phillips said that PR told her that Burke hit JonBenet with a golf club in anger. This is much different than what JR, PR and BR himself on DP have stated - that it was an accidental back swing. Why do I believe Judith over the Rs? Because she has no dog in this show and no reason to lie. Judith could not comprehend why the parents would request that none of their friends cooperate with LE in the murder investigation. She did and was shunned by the friends she had known since Atlanta. Why did they not want anyone to cooperate with LE in the investigation of their child's murder? Because they didn't want Burke's history of bizarre behavior to be known.

Dr. Glass, during her interview with Tricia, stated that Burke exhibited 'duping delight' meaning that he got pleasure out of lying about the events of JonBenet's murder. Chilling. She also stated that poop on the candy was an act of violence and hatred towards JonBenet. His smiling at the funeral, his giddiness during the interviews when he was a child and his laughing and smiling during the DP show made my skin crawl. He seems to be very delighted that no one has yet to figure out what happened that night and his hubris is making him leak out facts not previously known. He will never be able to withstand a withering cross examination.

I was shocked at the actions of Alex Hunter. It is as thought he knew that Burke was the murderer but since he could not be prosecuted, the Rs were going to be allowed to slide on the staging. Shocking.

Dr. Spitz proved beyond all doubt that a 10 year old (and Burke was just 2 weeks shy of being 10) could, in fact, deliver a deadly blow to the fragile skull of a 6 year old child. JR stated that it was laughable to even suggest a 9 year old had the strength to do such a thing, although Burke was 10 for all real purposes except prosecution, as he continued to distance Burke from the crime, even on the DP show. He is despicable.

The CBS investigators proved, without any room for doubt, that no one could go through the basement widow without destroying the spider web and disturbing the debris in the window well.

Dr. Lee proved that brand new clothing, right out of the package contains tDNA left over from the manufacturing and packaging process. He also explained how easy it is to transfer DNA from one place to another and that the minuscule amount of DNA was irrelevant to the crime. One can only imagine the amount of DNA that is transferred from workers in clothing sweat shops onto the clothing they make. DNA from fingers, sweat, saliva, even blood can be expected on even brand new clothing. Dr. Lee also proved that there will be DNA in the cord and possibly on the flashlight and batteries and they should all be tested again.

Most enlightening was that there was no sexual assault. None. Microscopic cellulose only. Could this have been from toilet paper? I think yes. No splinters of wood. This spins the staging into another realm altogether. I always assumed it was done to cover prior sexual abuse. Now I believe that the staging was done to cover an intentional act by a mentally disturbed and troubled kid and have rejected that this blow was done by a kid who didn't know his own strength. He knew and, IMHO, did this on purpose. He swung the flashlight into her head with as much force as he could muster because he has no control mechanisms.

What did Burke scream at Judith in an explosion of anger? "Go away! Don't touch me, leave me alone!"? She said that this came out of nowhere.

Lin Wood went on a twitter rampage last night, threatening to sue the world. Well, well, well. JR said this is the last interview he will ever give but I think not. The next ones will be under oath in depositions and Burke will find himself being grilled by a battery of attorneys. His smart alec answers won't fly in the big, cruel world of litigation and I hope LW does file suit so that BR has to squirm under intense pressure of withering examination. It is long overdue.

After all I have seen and read, I have formed an opinion and am 100% convinced that Burke killed JBR and has zero remorse. Zero. He was not held accountable and therefore thinks he did nothing wrong. No consequences equals no wrong doing to him.

This post bears repeating. I agree entirely. So sad for that precious little girl- her family and others let her down. RIP sweet girl- they are lucky if you have forgiven them.

 

[sweetcaro]

Does anyone think new testing will be done on the existing evidence? Gosh it should be.

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

 

[Tortoise]

Also, look at this, from Patsy's interview - (the word flashbacks can only mean something remembered right?)

[FONT=&quot]25 TOM HANEY: Okay. So no independent[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]0329[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 recollection of --[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 3 TOM HANEY: -- that?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 4 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 5 TOM HANEY: Okay. One other thing, this[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 6 morning you mentioned that the doctors, Dr. Brown in[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 7 Atlanta, had diagnosed this post traumatic stress[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 8 disorder, and I wondered what the symptoms, what[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 9 symptoms you experience as a result of that.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, just very sad and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 very -- crying a lot, fatigue easily.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do your symptoms include[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 anything like nightmares?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 PATSY RAMSEY: I had those.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 TOM HANEY: About?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 scream. I have nightmares where I am, you know,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 searching, searching, searching trying to find[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 somebody, and trying to find who did this.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm[/FONT]

 

[SandyQLS]

What he said about probably hearing if someone hit JonBenet with a flashlite. Experts, I believe Spitzer, has said that there would have been a very loud noise when the skull was hit and fractured. Burke must realize this now at his age, but as a child he said whoever did it took her down quietly and tiptoeing downstairs.

And BR also said of himself that he is a heavy sleeper, but also that he had trouble falling asleep! I see a kid who was very manipulated, brainwashed. Even if BDI, this path chosen by JR and PR has been the much more difficult for all of them but especially BR. If BDI he would have been better off in every way to have it dealt with at the time. PR has died, JR is a mature adult, but BR has to live his whole life from age 9 with the JBR murder secrets - and I think he knows what happened or part of what happened. If PDI, he had to grow up in a home with her knowing that.

 

[just the facts pls]

This post bears repeating. I agree entirely. So sad for that precious little girl- her family and others let her down. RIP sweet girl- they are lucky if you have forgiven them.

Same here. I think all the talk about suing is doing exactly what the CBS special said at the end of the program - that JBR herself is once again becoming a mere footnote in her own murder case.

 

[Tortoise]

Shame that the White's wouldn't talk. Do you think they worry that it might prejudice a trial if they are ever called to give evidence? Or maybe worry about being sued?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Also, look at this, from Patsy's interview - (the word flashbacks can only mean something remembered right?)

[FONT="]25 TOM HANEY: Okay. So no independent[/FONT]
[FONT="]0329[/FONT]
[FONT="] 1 recollection of --[/FONT]
[FONT="] 2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 3 TOM HANEY: -- that?[/FONT]
[FONT="] 4 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 5 TOM HANEY: Okay. One other thing, this[/FONT]
[FONT="] 6 morning you mentioned that the doctors, Dr. Brown in[/FONT]
[FONT="] 7 Atlanta, had diagnosed this post traumatic stress[/FONT]
[FONT="] 8 disorder, and I wondered what the symptoms, what[/FONT]
[FONT="] 9 symptoms you experience as a result of that.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, just very sad and[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 very -- crying a lot, fatigue easily.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do your symptoms include[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 anything like nightmares?[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 PATSY RAMSEY: I had those.[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 TOM HANEY: About?[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet[/FONT]
[FONT="][B]19 scream.[/B] I have nightmares where I am, you know,[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 searching, searching, searching trying to find[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 somebody, and trying to find who did this.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm[/FONT]

well spotted, tortoise.

 

[curious1234]

I think that burke hit her on the head, used the garotte, and molested her. Maybe after he hit her and she was unconscious, he poked her with the train tracks, then moved on to the molestation, and then the garotte. I think John or patsy found her after she was dead. They only staged with the note in order to throw suspicion off of burke, imo. I can imagine them finding her and being so traumatized that they cleaned her, changed her, and wrapped her in her blanket. I think they would have called 911 if they had merely found her unconscious. This is really the only way it makes sense to me. Also, could the knot have been made earlier, like John and Burke practicing making knots? Could the rope with that knot already on it have been wrapped around her neck?

 

[Tortoise]

well spotted, tortoise.

Also interesting to note the change of language.

She says "I have flashbacks of seeing my daughter lying down on the floor"...and in the same sentence, "and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet scream."

Now statement analysts would have a field day with that - change of language. It would be more natural to say I have flashbacks of seeing JonBenet, and hearing her scream. She's used different language choices in one sentence.

It does sound to me as if she refers to JonBenet by name because she was alive then (so she really did hear her) and when she sees her lying dead she has distanced herself from her.

 

[Tortoise]

I think that burke hit her on the head, used the garotte, and molested her. Maybe after he hit her and she was unconscious, he poked her with the train tracks, then moved on to the molestation, and then the garotte. I think John or patsy found her after she was dead. They only staged with the note in order to throw suspicion off of burke, imo. I can imagine them finding her and being so traumatized that they cleaned her, changed her, and wrapped her in her blanket. I think they would have called 911 if they had merely found her unconscious. This is really the only way it makes sense to me. Also, could the knot have been made earlier, like John and Burke practicing making knots? Could the rope with that knot already on it have been wrapped around her neck?

She wasn't changed after death. Her clothing was heavily urine stained.

 

[elendast]

I've thought it odd that Patsy told the police in 1998 she didn't pack a suitcase for their planned trip that day, she was gathering clothes together for all of them in a plastic bag when she 'found' the ransom note. She said they were only going for a couple of days or so and they had clothes at the lake house. Now this was their first winter trip to the lake house, previously they had only spent summers there. So to me it seems clear they wouldn't have stored winter clothes at the lake house, and also children quickly grow out of clothes, so why leave any behind? There was a plastic bag of items dumped at the bottom of the spiral staircase, photographed that morning by police, and she said that was probably it, that she had dropped it to read the note.

I wasn't 100% certain from the interview transcript but it seemed to me that after giving her explanation for the plastic bag, the police then confronted her with a photograph taken on her own camera by someone in the family on Christmas morning, which showed the same bag she had referred to in the exact same spot already, and couldn't have been the plastic bag she was filling with clothes. She was stumped by this and couldn't work out who in the family would have taken a photo of just the hallway, but more to the point it blew her explanation.

Total ludicrous. I could believe that she'd wear the same clothes twice before I would believe that she would ever throw their stuff into a plastic bag for a trip.

Remember all the clothes on John Andrew's bag that looked like they were sprawled out to be sorted and packed? What were those clothes for? The cruise? Or packing that got interrupted by whatever went down that night?

 

[cubbeegirl]

Also, look at this, from Patsy's interview - (the word flashbacks can only mean something remembered right?)

[FONT="]25 TOM HANEY: Okay. So no independent[/FONT]
[FONT="]0329[/FONT]
[FONT="] 1 recollection of --[/FONT]
[FONT="] 2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 3 TOM HANEY: -- that?[/FONT]
[FONT="] 4 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 5 TOM HANEY: Okay. One other thing, this[/FONT]
[FONT="] 6 morning you mentioned that the doctors, Dr. Brown in[/FONT]
[FONT="] 7 Atlanta, had diagnosed this post traumatic stress[/FONT]
[FONT="] 8 disorder, and I wondered what the symptoms, what[/FONT]
[FONT="] 9 symptoms you experience as a result of that.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, just very sad and[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 very -- crying a lot, fatigue easily.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do your symptoms include[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 anything like nightmares?[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 PATSY RAMSEY: I had those.[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 TOM HANEY: About?[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet[/FONT]
[FONT="][B]19 scream.[/B] I have nightmares where I am, you know,[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 searching, searching, searching trying to find[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 somebody, and trying to find who did this.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm[/FONT]

Good catch !

 

[Tortoise]

Total ludicrous. I could believe that she'd wear the same clothes twice before I would believe that she would ever throw their stuff into a plastic bag for a trip.

Remember all the clothes on John Andrew's bag that looked like they were sprawled out to be sorted and packed? What were those clothes for? The cruise? Or packing that got interrupted by whatever went down that night?

She said that was for the Disney cruise.

 

[HarmonyE.]

The dualing grand jury indictments tell me that the parents were giving such conflicting statements that LE was unclear on which parent did the murder, and which parent assisted in the coverup - not the show's implication that there was a 3rd party and that BDI. JMO the dualing grand jury indictments are meant to push the assistant into telling the whole truth against the killer to save themself, JR versus PR.

No, the attorney last night explained that this wasn't the case as both would have been charged with murder as well. The grand jury thought Burke did it.

 

[BOESP]

Neither were charged with first degree murder in the indictment, just being an accessory to it. So you have 3 live people in the house and 2 are accessories to FDM. That tells you who the GJ thought committed the crime - Burke.

Whoever composed that true bill was highly skilled!

Did anyone notice the lady Colorado attorney (sorry but I don't recall her name) who explained the true bill also said that the way it was worded could very well mean that only John and Patsy were involved and one helped the other. She then said it could also mean they both assisted a third party, which the attorney thought was the correct interpretation.

Sooooo ... the true bill could be interpreted to mean either John, Patsy or Burke did it.

I am not comfortable coming to a conclusion without seeing all the evidence and that isn't gonna happen.