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Honestly, I couldn't care less about Suffolk County politics or government officials. The only issue I have with any of them is how it relates to SOLVING this case, and PROSECUTING the person(s) responsible for it. To me (a person who has never lived there, visited there or vacationed there), who is looking at this case unbiased with absolutely no connection to the victims, their families or anyone living or working in Suffolk County... it stinks. There's SOMETHING that stinks about the whole case. I'm not saying I know who did it or who's connected to whom. I don't know. I have my suspicions, but I don't know. The one thing I see as a complete outsider is that there are lies. Blatant lies and lies by omission. Why? I don't know. I have my suspicions of why. Before SG, there were lies. After SG, there were lies. The people Suffolk County expects their officials to "protect and serve" and those who are supposed to prosecute the guilty seem to be doing nothing, IMO. It's not JUST me thinking this. This case is 2 years in the making and things have obviously been worse than I had any idea when I came to this case (3 months ago). Being told by a government figure in Albany that Suffolk County is "known for their hostility" is concerning. It concerns ME and I don't live there. It concerns me as an American citizen.

All I want in this case is truth. Whatever truth it points to, I want to see a resolution.
-PFA???

Those are some really harsh accusations you are making about a really awesome police force. These men and women risk their lives every day to protect and serve the public. Accusing them of LIES without a SHRED of evidence that anyone from the SCPD has lied about this case is COMPLETELY inappropriate.
 
ps149,

Both Steve Bellone and Steve Levy sound like outstanding political leaders. However listing political achievements of leaders is not that hard. I bet one could come up with a 100 achievements of Joseph Stalin if one really tried.


I think what is relevant on this forum is what have these two gentleman have done in terms of SG and the other deceased victims in terms of bringing the perpetrators to justice?


I do not think either has achieved, initiated or managed to do anything of significance in the last two years in regards to these crimes.

No doubt there are wonderful individuals in the Suffolk County government and civil service doing yeoman's work for the betterment of their community.

However few of us see much evidence of outstanding effort in the crime cases we are dealing with.

MOO

Well at least you are not making false accusations that one of them LIED.

As far as doing anything significant in regards to these crimes, it's easy to scrutinize sitting in a chair behind a computer screen from a home. It's also easy to scrutinize on what could've, would've, should've been done. Unless you are a homicide detective on the inside of this investigation, nobody has any right to judge the hard work and the effort the homicide unit has contributed to this case.

It's got to be among the top ten most difficult cases in history to solve.
 
Well at least you are not making false accusations that one of them LIED.

As far as doing anything significant in regards to these crimes, it's easy to scrutinize sitting in a chair behind a computer screen from a home. It's also easy to scrutinize on what could've, would've, should've been done. Unless you are a homicide detective on the inside of this investigation, nobody has any right to judge the hard work and the effort the homicide unit has contributed to this case.

It's got to be among the top ten most difficult cases in history to solve.


Really?
 
I use the cloud of smoke rising out of my mouth to meditate on how the human brain stores and organizes information. Then when I cant remember something I use my querying skills to find it. The search function on WS is useful too ;)

hmmmmmm....puff...puff....:floorlaugh:
 
Med students turning to prostitution to pay tuition

http://vitals.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...udents-turning-to-prostitution-to-pay-tuition

I think it's so sad that the Gilgo 4 & Gilbert chose the profession they did. They all seemed like they had such potential to be something more. The lure of "easy money" was just too great I guess.

Sorry just stumbled upon this thread. Was one of the victims of the LI SK a medical student??

I'm a medical student and I'll be $300k in debt when I'm finished so the debt is indeed very frightening. But prostitution and the creepers you could meet are more so!! And this article... aren't UK colleges free?
 
-PFA???

Those are some really harsh accusations you are making about a really awesome police force. These men and women risk their lives every day to protect and serve the public. Accusing them of LIES without a SHRED of evidence that anyone from the SCPD has lied about this case is COMPLETELY inappropriate.

First, I didn't say SCPD lied, I just pointed out that this entire case is full of lies.

Let me list the lies/misinformation/strange behavior that come to me immediately from SCPD. These are what appear to ME as lies (thing that make me go hmmmm).

1. Who was the first on scene?

2. Nobody can tell me, "We didn't know where she was," when TWO neighbors call 911 and describe a nameless woman running and screaming down the road. If, like the SCPD stated, the police were there 10 min after BB's call, she would have been able to point in the general direction of where she was last seen running.

3. Did they look for SG 10 min after responding to the scene? I highly doubt it since she "ran through the marsh," and apparently just took of her pants and shoes and left all her stuff behind running to die in that area. If they had, and it occurred the way the SCPD said, why did it take so long to find SG?

4. I'm not fooled into believing the SCPD were "searching for SG" 5(ish) miles in the opposite direction of where she was last seen alive when they stumbled upon GB4's remains.

5. Dormer and Spota PUBLICLY disagreed with the 1 or more killer theory. That, alone, is a lack of professionalism. Sitting in a restaurant, it would be very unlikely that you would have a manager come up to your table while your server is standing here and the manage tells the server that he gave you the wrong food. It's just unprofessional.

6. The 911 call from SG. In one letter there are MULTIPLE contradictory statements. She was calm, but she then ran. She screamed for help, but there was no argument.

7. SG died by drowning or from the elements following a 23 minute 911 call. She was on the phone with 911 for 23 minutes, but then left that phone to take her pants off and run away from that phone to burrow herself to die from hypothermia... or drown in a couple inches of water.

8. Dec. 2011 (before SG's body was found) the FBI found 90 (that's NINETY) points of interest, and the SCPD said they had no plans to search, until a few days later when they found SG's stuff, and a few days later her body. No more plans to search the rest of the points of interest. I mean, why WOULD they want to add any more bodies to their list? That just means more work.

9. As soon as they found SG's body, there has been no further investigation or mention of LISK other than the new bodies found in Manorville.

10. It is apparent that SG was just labeled a missing person. The 911 call should have kept the investigators from just looking at it as a missing person case and dig deeper. Instead, they waited until 3 months later to come back and INVESTIGATE and then clear the most obvious suspects without a THOROUGH investigation.
 
Let's table the political talk and get back to the LISK case please.
 
First, I didn't say SCPD lied, I just pointed out that this entire case is full of lies.

Let me list the lies/misinformation/strange behavior that come to me immediately from SCPD. These are what appear to ME as lies (thing that make me go hmmmm).

One second you state you never say SCPD lied and in your very next sentence you say you will list the lies that come to you immediately from SCPD. I try so hard to give you the benefit of doubt but then you make a contradictory statement immediately after denying that you lie (so now I find it impossible to trust my judgement and comprehension of what it is I think you are trying to say).

1. Who was the first on scene?

SCPD Marine One Patrol unit from the 1st Precinct on Route 109 in West Babylon, NY.

2. Nobody can tell me, "We didn't know where she was," when TWO neighbors call 911 and describe a nameless woman running and screaming down the road. If, like the SCPD stated, the police were there 10 min after BB's call, she would have been able to point in the general direction of where she was last seen running.

YES THEY CAN have a really tough time locating a 911 caller when the caller is using some sort cell phone that isn't registered to be traced by the E911 system (burner phone??), the caller is so irresponsible that she doesn't even know what town (or Island for that matter) she was calling from when she agreed to engage in an illegal act of prostitution, when the caller incorrectly alerted a 911 operator that she was somewhere on Fire Island, when the caller was obviously in some sort of compromised mental capacity (on drugs???), when the caller has a history of mental illness and refusal to take medication prescribed to treat such mental illness, when the person who ran door-to-door didn't identify herself or even give her first name, when the person running door-to-door also ran from those who called 911 for her... the list goes on and on and on and on...

3. Did they look for SG 10 min after responding to the scene? I highly doubt it since she "ran through the marsh," and apparently just took of her pants and shoes and left all her stuff behind running to die in that area. If they had, and it occurred the way the SCPD said, why did it take so long to find SG? What reason would they have to look for someone when there wasn't any proof that the person was missing? It's not like her family was there looking for her either. This is a grown woman (a so-called ADULT) we are speaking about. Ten minutes after responding to a scene for a "mystery woman" who couldn't even tell anyone what was wrong isn't going to spark an all-out manhunt. It could have been a prank. It could have been any number of infinite scenarios. Bottom line is that there was nobody responsible enough to step forward and state to the police that someone was indeed missing. MP left the scene. Why???? JB went to bed we presume. I can guarantee you that there would have been a thorough search for her (not just ten minutes later but through the night and the rest of the week if that's what it took) if MP held his ground, called her family and her boyfriend to join in on holding their ground there at the scene to say "Our loved one is still here somewhere". When MP ran out of there before the police arrived, there was nobody to alert the police who she was, the state of mind she was in and how she was from New Jersey with no way to return.

4. I'm not fooled into believing the SCPD were "searching for SG" 5(ish) miles in the opposite direction of where she was last seen alive when they stumbled upon GB4's remains. Much less than five miles. It's walking distance (for sure). Even if it was five miles or more, let me get this straight, you are now angry that SCPD went above and beyond their call of duty by continuing to search and search and search as far as the search needed to take them????

5. Dormer and Spota PUBLICLY disagreed with the 1 or more killer theory. That, alone, is a lack of professionalism. Sitting in a restaurant, it would be very unlikely that you would have a manager come up to your table while your server is standing here and the manage tells the server that he gave you the wrong food. It's just unprofessional. So what? Who cares? This case is complex. They are grown men who can deal with it. Nobody is complaining. Not one newspaper editorial even spoke about it. It's a non-issue. Better to hear opposing theories then not to care enough to discuss the case.

6. The 911 call from SG. In one letter there are MULTIPLE contradictory statements. She was calm, but she then ran. She screamed for help, but there was no argument. One man wrote one opinion to defend his fellow detectives. So what if his writing skills are not perfectly keen. He took the time to write the letter and the newspaper cared enough to publish it. It's not an official report. Just a letter to an editor. No reflection of anything.

7. SG died by drowning or from the elements following a 23 minute 911 call. She was on the phone with 911 for 23 minutes, but then left that phone to take her pants off and run away from that phone to burrow herself to die from hypothermia... or drown in a couple inches of water. How do you know how SG died? Last time I checked it was "inconclusive". Maybe she drowned, maybe she died of an overdose, maybe MP strangled her, maybe JB held her head under water until her heart stopped breathing, maybe CPH drugged her, maybe, maybe, maybe... What do you know about SG's cause of death that the investigators don't know?

8. Dec. 2011 (before SG's body was found) the FBI found 90 (that's NINETY) points of interest, and the SCPD said they had no plans to search, until a few days later when they found SG's stuff, and a few days later her body. No more plans to search the rest of the points of interest. I mean, why WOULD they want to add any more bodies to their list? That just means more work. Not every public statement made by every police force is released with the intent of providing truthful information. Did you ever once stop to consider that maybe it was all part of a plan to try to trap the LISK to make him think the police were finished with their searches? Ask Truthspider or Flukeyou about the police investigator presence in area. They will confirm that it almost seemed like there were many undercover "stake outs" in the area shortly after that press conference stating no intention to search any further. We now know that it was obviously a trap. In police work, it's not what is disclosed to the public that matters. It's the work that is actually accomplished behind the scenes. Once again, who cares who said what and why? Instead, be impressed that they actually brought in engineers to figure out a way to drain wetlands that are normally saturated with so much water that they cannot be searched (I'm impressed!)

9. As soon as they found SG's body, there has been no further investigation or mention of LISK other than the new bodies found in Manorville. Seriously???? No further investigation????? That, my friend, is a complete LIE! These guys have been working all sorts of insane overtime on this case and have continued to do so. SG was found over a year ago. The homicide unit has been working their asses off on this case. How dare anyone accuse them of "no further investigation". Seriously????

10. It is apparent that SG was just labeled a missing person. The 911 call should have kept the investigators from just looking at it as a missing person case and dig deeper. Instead, they waited until 3 months later to come back and INVESTIGATE and then clear the most obvious suspects without a THOROUGH investigation.
What else do you label someone who is missing? You are not privy to how thorough the investigation has been (so you cannot rightfully state that they cleared suspects without a thorough investigation. SG's case received more funding and a more thorough investigation than 99% of all cases to come through the homicide unit. Your statement is completely FALSE
 
You are not privy to how thorough the investigation has been

We don't need non-public information to determine that the investigation wasn't thorough enough. They didn't find her for over a year, and she was right there. This wasn't a man overboard at sea, or a lost child in some vast mountain range, or a missing person in NYC. It is an extremely small enclave of houses on an extremely small island in flat suburban long island. There were no caves, no forest, and no places to hide. SG was either not in that location when they searched, or the SCPD's search serioulsy lacked any type of rigor. I personally believe that she wasn't in that location during the multiple searches. If SG was always in the location where her remains were found, then good luck convincing anyone that the search was thorough.
 
ps149, Your points are that

* This is a difficult case, TRUE

* SCPD is filled with highly skilled and motivated members have busted their asses on this case. TRUE

* Millions of dollars have been spent on the case (Helicopters etc are not cheap)TRUE

But you have to also agree

* From the beginning SCPD under Dormer did not take this case very seriously.

* Most evidence discovered has been found by chance, not effective police work.

* The man hours and effort dedicated by Sleuthers and others seeking justice for SG and the other victims likely exceeds the SCPD man hours.

* Mistakes were made by SCPD.

* One of the reason SCPD has had to expend so much time and money is because of errors made early on.

* SCPD and the whole County Administration is embarrassed by the focus this case has brought upon them.

* The results speak for themselves, SCPD could have laid mis-demeanor charges in this case months ago, they chose not too.

* Much of the misfortune that has fallen on the SCPD was authored by their leadership.

* SCPD has cleared CPH,MP,and JB, and have not said they have any other persons of interest.

* CPH and MP are innocent until proven guilty, but their actions and words point to their involvement and probable culpability.

* I ask you to compare the Beltway sniper case, and the leadership shown by Charles Moose and the Montgomery County Police Department to this case. That was a tough case, but it was solved. and nobody felt it was going to go cold.

* What has SCPD accomplished since SG's body was found?

* You do not have to be the apologist for the SCPD, they can stand on their record.



MOO
 
Last I heard this thread is called CROCKPOT. You can throw anything in to make the stew. CRACKPOTS should be encouraged to participate. THIS CASE, IMO, IS ALL ABOUT POLITICS.

I have participated in hundreds of murder cases over the last ten years of my career. I have also been involved in serial murder cases. How many have you been involved with other than a website?
 
"She ran out of her pants."-Richard Dormer 2011

The SCPD also missed finding her earring on JB driveway and they "lost" her jacket after they had it in their possession.

Between the SCPD, GC, BB, JB, MP, AD, we still can not determine what she was really wearing, what items were found and where and what items were not found/missing that she was wearing or had with her that night - eg., wig, boots, cells, underwear, etc.

After finding SB, her pants, pocketbook, one cell, lipstick, a pair of ballet slippers, there was no mention of or accounting for other items that she must have had. IMO it could help in some way to trace her whereabouts that night - She could have changed out of her boots somewhere and left them there.
 
The SCPD also missed finding her earring on JB driveway and they "lost" her jacket after they had it in their possession.

Between the SCPD, GC, BB, JB, MP, AD, we still can not determine what she was really wearing, what items were found and where and what items were not found/missing that she was wearing or had with her that night - eg., wig, boots, cells, underwear, etc.

After finding SB, her pants, pocketbook, one cell, lipstick, a pair of ballet slippers, there was no mention of or accounting for other items that she must have had. IMO it could help in some way to trace her whereabouts that night - She could have changed out of her boots somewhere and left them there.



Did they find her ballet slippers? I thought she had changed into boots. Was she running in slippers or boots. When and where and why would she have put on her slippers? I' m confused. Where are her boots? Are they missing?
 
Last I heard this thread is called CROCKPOT. You can throw anything in to make the stew. CRACKPOTS should be encouraged to participate. THIS CASE, IMO, IS ALL ABOUT POLITICS.

I have participated in hundreds of murder cases over the last ten years of my career. I have also been involved in serial murder cases. How many have you been involved with other than a website?

Mathematically spoken hundreds of cases means n>200 (as in at least two times hundred) ... that makes at least 200/120 per month or 1.66 cases per months. To reach that, you would actually need some pretty prolific serial killers in your area just to hold up your workload ... or, despite working the cases, you never caught anybody and thus the numbers climbed over time ... well, that's all under the assumption of cause, your statement of "hundreds of cases in the last decade" is true and not exaggerated ... just doing the math.

Peter
 
IIRC they found ballet-type flats with her pants, pocketbook, lipstick, cell and items from her purse. I don't believe they found her boots though. When she was discovered by OParkway LE didn't mention what she was or wasn't wearing. It would appear her boots and other items disappeared.

From the info we know, it would seem that she was running barefooted through the marsh. Her pants "fell off" so she couldn't have been wearing her boots?
 
ps149, Your points are that
* This is a difficult case, TRUE

Okay, it's not an easy one, but then to claim, this is a case of a historical difficulty level, as ps did, is also a little over the top. Bundy forced LE, to cooperate over a dozen county lines and even state lines. That's a problem, we don't have here. Ridgway's victims aren't identified till today ... another problem, we don't have with the GB4 at least. Franklin changed his signature in between and returned to his old one years later. Doesn't look like we have that problem here. During the Hillside Strangler case, offender profiling was new and rarely were enough profilers available. Another problem, we don't have in this case. Eckert in Europe spread his bodies all over the road net of Europe, in Spain, France, Germany, Czechia and so on. A problem we don't have in this case.
I could go on and on. There are literally dozens of cases with a higher level of difficulty. However, there is a triad of symptoms, that appear almost exclusively connected to unsolved SK cases:

- rubber stamp profiling
- secrecy to "protect the investigation"
- losing evidence/ignoring evidence

The weird thing is, that when one of those symptoms shows up in a PD during such a case, at least one other will show up soon after. And one has to admit SCPD has shown already all three. So well, one can say, they try to do their job and thus are out of any critique, but still, they haven'T covered all base as long as there was time and that, in my opinion, puts them back into critique. And be it only to make them finally move.

Peter
 
Peter, when Hawkshaw made this statement .......

I have participated in hundreds of murder cases over the last ten years of my career. I have also been involved in serial murder cases. How many have you been involved with other than a website?

I believe he was speaking of hundreds of murder cases and some of those being serial killer cases. The vast majority of murders and homicides do not involve serial killers.
As strange as it sounds most murders involve friends and family.

MOO
 
Mathematically spoken hundreds of cases means n>200 (as in at least two times hundred) ... that makes at least 200/120 per month or 1.66 cases per months. To reach that, you would actually need some pretty prolific serial killers in your area just to hold up your workload ... or, despite working the cases, you never caught anybody and thus the numbers climbed over time ... well, that's all under the assumption of cause, your statement of "hundreds of cases in the last decade" is true and not exaggerated ... just doing the math.

Peter

FRANKLY, I expected more from you, MR.PB. I wrote I was involved in hundreds of murder cases and some of them were serial killer cases. Real serial killers, not just people that killed a lot of people. Maybe three or four in some capacity or another.
 
thanks, windsor, and you probably never wrote a book. ANY murder investigation that is easy IF you know the answers.

I have never really accused the SCPD for being incompetent. When you get right down to it most detectives have a high degree of incompetency if you really want to be honest with yourself. I have always gone at this from a different direction. I question the investigation as not be trustworthy. I consider myself to be an EXPERT on such matters SCPD.
 
. When you get right down to it most detectives have a high degree of incompetency if you really want to be honest with yourself.


wow-interesting statement from a former homicide detective(although I would somewhat agree, both I tend to hold homicide dets. in higher regard than other dets., since the pre-reqs are a much higher standard--good thing you said this, and not someone else, or the roof might have been blown off the proverbial house---thanks for your honest assessment
 
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