The December 23 party

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
How do you know for certain what happened? We know he had an OCD with sharing his drink; why not his food?


The soda can incident as recounted in Foreign Faction:

"On another occasion, Dr. Bernhard had mistakenly taken a sip from Burke's soda can. He seemed to bristle at the intrusion of his personal space / property and indicated that he couldn't drink from the can anymore."

That is about how I'd react.
 
Respectfully snipped for focus
I do not recall BR fingerprints being linked to the breakfast bar. Perhaps the kitchen table.

I’m so sorry to learn of your history with abuse. I’m sure that makes this case especially difficult for you.

As I understand it, there were two sets of fingerprints found on the infamous bowl of pineapple chunks in milk, and possibly (I forget) also the glass with the tea bag in it. They matched Patsy and Burke, but no one else.
 
The soda can incident as recounted in Foreign Faction:

"On another occasion, Dr. Bernhard had mistakenly taken a sip from Burke's soda can. He seemed to bristle at the intrusion of his personal space / property and indicated that he couldn't drink from the can anymore."

That is about how I'd react.

Swirlz,
I would have reacted exactly the same way myself. Yet, not all kids would react this way.
 
Respectfully snipped for focus


I’m so sorry to learn of your history with abuse. I’m sure that makes this case especially difficult for you.

As I understand it, there were two sets of fingerprints found on the infamous bowl of pineapple chunks in milk, and possibly (I forget) also the glass with the tea bag in it. They matched Patsy and Burke, but no one else.

887sMtreme,
It doesn’t make it difficult for me. It merely makes me want justice to be served for JB.

There were two sets of fingerprints on the bowl = PR and BR. JB could have grabbed a piece from the bowl with her fingers. Only BR fingerprints are found on the glass.
 
Rain on my Parade,
You are correct, but the fingerprints are not date stamped whereas Burke Ramsey's pajama bottoms are.

Much more significant than his prints on the glass, i.e. could just be innocent noise, is his touch-dna deposited on the bloodstained pink barbie nightgown left in the wine-cellar.

This links him directly to JonBenet via her bloodstains and indirectly to the wine-cellar, i.e. the gown should simply not be there at all!

So although you can dream up causal chains of reasoning to explain it all away it does seem to implicate Burke Ramsey.

.

Are you saying that it's 100% impossible for Burke to not to have touched/handled the Barbie nightgown after it was bloodstained?
 
887sMtreme,
It doesn’t make it difficult for me. It merely makes me want justice to be served for JB.

There were two sets of fingerprints on the bowl = PR and BR. JB could have grabbed a piece from the bowl with her fingers. Only BR fingerprints are found on the glass.

Are you saying it is 100% impossible for Burke to have had a drink of water that night and not to have put the glass back in the kitchen?
 
Are you saying that it's 100% impossible for Burke to not to have touched/handled the Barbie nightgown after it was bloodstained?

icedtea4me,
No, and if he did then he was present at the crime-scene.

Did BPD match fibers from Burke Ramsey's pajamas to that of the Barbie nightgown?

No Burke Ramsey touch-dna, Hi-Tec boot print or penknife and he cannot be linked to the wine-cellar.

He has more links to the wine-cellar than Patsy, only her fibers link her, albeit they are incriminating.

.
 
UKGuy,
If as the R’s reported JB was zonked out upon arrival home that evening, it makes little sense that PR would be fiddling with her hair.



I believe you are basing YO on the soiled pajama pants found in JB bedroom. I have reviewed the videos and just don’t see any pj pants on her bedroom floor. Part of her outfit that she wore to the White’s party are there beside her doll house w/her boots. Why would PR put her cloths there?



In review the tea bag as not been submerged enough to produce a cup of tea.

Rain on my Parade,
If as the R’s reported JB was zonked out upon arrival home that evening, it makes little sense that PR would be fiddling with her hair.
How can JonBenet be zonked out when she snacks pineapple with Burke and has her hair dressed for bed, patently she was wide awake.

I believe you are basing YO on the soiled pajama pants found in JB bedroom. I have reviewed the videos and just don’t see any pj pants on her bedroom floor. Part of her outfit that she wore to the White’s party are there beside her doll house w/her boots. Why would PR put her cloths there?
I'm going on James Kolar's reference to a CSI report.

From Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? by A. James Kolar; pages 367-70
"I had reviewed an investigator’s report that documented a 1997 interview with former Ramsey nanny – housekeeper Geraldine Vodicka, who stated that Burke had smeared feces on the walls of a bathroom during his mother’s first bout with cancer. She told investigators that Nedra Paugh, who was visiting the Ramsey home at the time, had directed her to clean up the mess.

There were other police reports in the files that documented what I thought could be viewed as related behavior. CSIs had written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenét’s bedroom that contained fecal material. They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke.

Additionally, a box of candy located in her bedroom had also been observed to be smeared with feces. Both of these discoveries had been made during the processing of the crime scene during the execution of search warrants following the discovery of JonBenét’s body. "
Hey, that's fecal matter not stains as reported by Holly Smith head of the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team.

Fox 31 News, Nov 13, 2006,Excerpt
She started, as always, with a visit to the child’s bedroom. "That's a really important piece of getting a real feel for a family," Smith explains. With portfolio pictures galore and closets full of JonBenet’s elaborate pageant outfits, Smith says she had a hard time getting a feel for who the little girl really was, even in her bedroom. She recalls, "I just had a sense the type of decor in her bedroom was not really a child's decor." One poignant find that she does recall was a red satin box with what looked like JonBenet’s secret stash of candy.

She found something else in the room, however, which raised an immediate red flag. Smith says most of the panties in JonBenet’s dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material. "There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith. JonBenet also had a history of bedwetting. While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions. "It's very different for every child, but when you have a child that's had this problem and it's pretty chronic for that child, and in addition you know some sort of physical evidence or trauma or an allegation, you put all those little pieces together and it just goes in your head," she says.

JonBenet's black velvet pants were laid out on the guest bed, Patsy identified them in an interview.

Nobody really knows who placed JonBenet's clothing where they ended up, Patsy's version of events is a fiction.

.
 
UKGuy,
Yet, they used this type of violence!




Being a victim myself of abuse, sure she could have said I’m not taking this anymore; I’m telling. But the problem here is thus: JB is 6 years old. Had the perpetrator been her father she would not be able to process the fact that this wasn’t love. She had no measure.




I do not recall BR fingerprints being linked to the breakfast bar. Perhaps the kitchen table. And yes according to the Bonita papers that Swiss Army knife was actually found feet from her body in the wine cellar. There is the poon print from boots BR wore and his touch DNA on the nightgown. My question here is w/LHP and family in and out of the wine cellar (removing Christmas trees) where are their hand and foot prints in this room? The poon print could have been made after JB voided on the carpet in which BR stepped into and then transferred the print.

We cannot rule PR out either. Since her touch dna is on the Barbie nightgown, fiber evidence in paint tray (although I question this). What about that scarf on the wet bar? Was it ever tested for fiber evidence? The colors matched were red and black. There were more colors in PR sweater that she wore out of the house that morning and didn’t turn over for at least a years time. How do we know what was turned over is the actual sweater she walked out in?

Rain on my Parade,
UKGuy,
Yet, they used this type of violence!
IMO the extreme blunt force trauma was intended as staging which failed, as it produced no visible sign of death.

The alternative is the head injury was a precursor to sexual assault, it's possible but does not make much sense to me.

That JonBenet was murdered in her own house does this not suggest someone therein wanted her silenced?

If it had been an accident, medical assistance would have been summoned. They knew she was in a coma and did not want her to awaken and tell everyone what took place?

My question here is w/LHP and family in and out of the wine cellar (removing Christmas trees) where are their hand and foot prints in this room?
They do not count as they admitted being in the room, so an absence of hand or foot prints is neither here or there.

The poon print could have been made after JB voided on the carpet in which BR stepped into and then transferred the print.
Yes, you could be right on this? Presumably it arrived after Patsy was last in the wine-cellar and LHP's family, as this should have made the Hi-Tec print less legible?

We cannot rule PR out either. Since her touch dna is on the Barbie nightgown, fiber evidence in paint tray (although I question this).
Patsy is already the prime suspect for asphyxiating JonBenet as her fibers are embedded into the knotting on the ligature/paintbrush device.

Burke Ramsey's touch dna should not be on a bloodstained crime-scene exhibit located in a remote basement wine-cellar. More or less explains why it was dumped there.

How do we know what was turned over is the actual sweater she walked out in?
We don't!

.
 
Last edited:
How do you know for certain what happened? We know he had an OCD with sharing his drink; why not his food?

Rain on my Parade,
Drinking from a can is different from drinking from a glass or cup, etc. As you cannot choose where to place your lips for drinking.

A large communal bowl of pineapple, probably prepared and laid out by Patsy and JonBenet gets whacked for taking a slice?

That does not add up for me. If it had been Burke's personal stash of candy, etc then maybe.

Why should Burke be bothered about a slice or two of pineapple when there is a large bowl of pineapple sitting on the table?

It could have happened but as an explanation its like something from a Disney cartoon.

Anyway why was JonBenet not rushed to hospital for medical treatment if Burke had whacked her?

.
 
Are you saying it is 100% impossible for Burke to have had a drink of water that night and not to have put the glass back in the kitchen?

icedtea4me,
Sure he could have drank water and set the glass down there. But why the gimmicky tea bag? That’s the real question. Why does that enter the picture?
 
Let's say you're at a restaurant. A complete stranger walks up to your table/booth, picks up your glass, and drinks out of it. How would you react?

icedtea4me,
But we aren’t talking about complete strangers. I had two brothers and they didn’t freak out over this sort of sharing.
 
How can JonBenet be zonked out when she snacks pineapple with Burke and has her hair dressed for bed, patently she was wide awake.

UKGuy,
Agreed.

Hey, that's fecal matter not stains as reported by Holly Smith head of the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team.

Agreed.


They do not count as they admitted being in the room, so an absence of hand or foot prints is neither here or there.

I would completely agree with this, yet ... why mention MR and PR hand print found on the wine cellar door? Why not JR hand print or FW?

Patsy is already the prime suspect for asphyxiating JonBenet as her fibers are embedded into the knotting on the ligature/paintbrush device.

Burke Ramsey's touch dna should not be on a bloodstained crime-scene exhibit located in a remote basement wine-cellar. More or less explains why it was dumped there.

They say they match but like I said what about the scarf on the wet bar? I have not seen this item on the list of evidence but I am sure there are many things we don’t see that were taken from the crime scene that are not listed.
JR departing gift to JB was a scarf? Besides it’s presence may explain PR reaction to seeing the last photo taken of JB. She could have thought oh no!

We don't!

Exactly.
 
icedtea4me,
Sure he could have drank water and set the glass down there. But why the gimmicky tea bag? That’s the real question. Why does that enter the picture?

The bowl of pineapple cubes in cream and the glass of water with the tea bag are symbolism.

The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie(Page 2) eBook online Read

Sandy Stranger had a feeling at the time that they were supposed to be the happiest days of her life, and on her tenth birthday she said so to her best friend Jenny Gray who had been asked to tea at Sandy’s house. The speciality of the feast was pineapple cubes with cream, and the speciality of the day was that they were left to themselves.
 
The bowl of pineapple cubes in cream and the glass of water with the tea bag are symbolism.

The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie(Page 2) eBook online Read

Sandy Stranger had a feeling at the time that they were supposed to be the happiest days of her life, and on her tenth birthday she said so to her best friend Jenny Gray who had been asked to tea at Sandy’s house. The speciality of the feast was pineapple cubes with cream, and the speciality of the day was that they were left to themselves.

icedtea4me,
Then you must be in the PDI camp.
 
Rain on my Parade,
Drinking from a can is different from drinking from a glass or cup, etc. As you cannot choose where to place your lips for drinking.

A large communal bowl of pineapple, probably prepared and laid out by Patsy and JonBenet gets whacked for taking a slice?

That does not add up for me. If it had been Burke's personal stash of candy, etc then maybe.

Why should Burke be bothered about a slice or two of pineapple when there is a large bowl of pineapple sitting on the table?

It could have happened but as an explanation its like something from a Disney cartoon.

Anyway why was JonBenet not rushed to hospital for medical treatment if Burke had whacked her?

.

UKGuy,
I know all to well about sharing drinks and the difference in drinking from a straw per say as drinking from a glass. Slobber is much more likely to occur via a straw then a glass. Yet ... it can still be there.

Somebody sticking their fingers in milk and cream.
I don’t think it far fetched for a person with scatolia issues to have a problem with that.
Some causes of smearing may include:

  • Medical issues (constipation, GI issues)
  • Psychiatric issues (OCD, exposure anxiety, mental health issues)
  • Sensory factors (interoception problems – not knowing you have to go, enjoyment of smell and texture)
  • Difficulties around teaching toilet training skills
  • Dietary factors (limited diet may lead to constipation)
  • Emotional factors (response to anxiety, the reward of a hot bath, sense of autonomy, understimulation/boredom, an expression of anger)
  • Sexual factors (gratification, a sign of abuse)

IMO, JB was chocked manually, then whacked on the head, then strangled with the ligature. I understand the blood pooling under the skin (as seen on left hand side below JB) neck can be a Vagus nerve reaction but I have always seen it as somebody grabbing JB by the shirt collar and twisting it; thereby leaving the knuckle imprint.

The Disney reference I guess we will also use in the instance where BR is telling Dr. Bernhardt what happened to JB less then 2 weeks from her death. He states he was just guessing about this on Dr. Phil. Less then two weeks later and he knows what happened. He also knows enough to discuss w/DS the ligature 2 days after the murder. Doesn’t sound to much like Disney to me.

I suppose you could be on the fence about why the crime was handled like it was. Perhaps they parents decided to lose one child instead of two.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
50
Guests online
1,677
Total visitors
1,727

Forum statistics

Threads
605,549
Messages
18,188,565
Members
233,431
Latest member
Crunchy Riff
Back
Top