The Duct Tape Match #3

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Trapshooter said:
notthatsmart I would be glad to do a test for you and everyone here at Websleuths.

As I stated a while back, we own a trout farm. We use duct tape all the time to maintain our pipes (underwater & above ground) and I can personally vouch for the disintegration of the duct tape, cotton fibers included. We buy the cheapest duct tape available because we use so much of it but when we first started our trout farm we did buy Henkel brand and other brand names of duct tape. Just because the duct tape has the "Henkel" name on it does not mean it lasts any longer than the generic tape. Next time my husband changes the duct tape on our pipes, I will photograph the duct tape that has been underwater. Maybe the visual will help you understand that the cotton does indeed disintegrate.
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I am not sure what you are saying NTS because if Trapshooter said they can personally vouch for the disintegration of the cotton fibers on duct tape and you are saying the decomp can speed up the disintegration of the cotton fibers then why would you think there were no cotton fibers in the tape to begin with. Since the company that manufactures the tape specs call for the cotton (I would think to strengthen the tape, 200 type) then why would you think it was made without the fibers. Wouldn't that have been a manufacturing defect? Since the gas can had the same tape on it wouldn't it be more likely that it is from the same or similiar roll, as most people usually buy more than one roll, than the tape on the remains being from a roll of tape which did not include cotton fibers. Part of the quality of the tape are those cotton fibers so why would a company even bother to sell it as duct tape. It would be like putting cotton fibers on the tape but forgetting the glue. It just would not sell. JMO
 
notthatsmart said:
Thanks. That is very kind of you. I was hoping of more of a bodyfarm type of test where the tape would be over a cadaver. The human decomp fluid should speed up the decomp of the tape. Once test is done, it should be viewed under ultra violet lights and viewed under a microscope to see if there are no traces of the cotton. In this case, I believe they did view both ways and there were no traces left of any cotton even though it was intertwined with polyester. I am under the belief that there was never any cotton there in the first place. There should be extra protection between the layers of tape since they were overlapped.
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Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just let a Henkel representative tell the Court what this duct tape originally looked like/consisted of. I'm sure they know all the specs of all their tapes.
 
LambChop said:
I am not sure what you are saying NTS because if Trapshooter said they can personally vouch for the disintegration of the cotton fibers on duct tape and you are saying the decomp can speed up the disintegration of the cotton fibers then why would you think there were no cotton fibers in the tape to begin with. Since the company that manufactures the tape specs call for the cotton (I would think to strengthen the tape, 200 type) then why would you think it was made without the fibers. Wouldn't that have been a manufacturing defect? Since the gas can had the same tape on it wouldn't it be more likely that it is from the same or similiar roll, as most people usually buy more than one roll, than the tape on the remains being from a roll of tape which did not include cotton fibers. Part of the quality of the tape are those cotton fibers so why would a company even bother to sell it as duct tape. It would be like putting cotton fibers on the tape but forgetting the glue. It just would not sell. JMO
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I would guess that the manufacture or whoever sets the specs would use several different types of fabrics to make different grades of industrial duct tape. There may be many reasons for this to include temperature, waterproofing, fireproofing, non toxic. There may even be products with metal inside for core. So I am not sold on that, that Henkel only makes duct tape with a cotton/poly mix. I do not even believe that Henkel makes the duct tape. I believe that they spec it and use their name on it, but shurefine distributes it and sells it. We do not know who actually makes it. We don't even know if it is made here in the USA. What I am saying is we do not know enough about the tape to assume that it is made with cotton. Do you know if She looked at her duct tape through a microscope and found no cotton fibers? This is not a naked eye thing. If cotton was in that duct tape at some point, there should be trace evidence of that. I don't want to get into a circular argument that is not productive to the thread, I just want to point out that there are a lot of assumptions being made here when the Fbi report actually stated that the duct tape was consistent with coming from a different source/roll. IMO

Ps to answer your first question. I would think there are no cotton fibers in the first place simply because there were no cotton fibers there.
 
ZsaZsa said:
Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just let a Henkel representative tell the Court what this duct tape originally looked like/consisted of. I'm sure they know all the specs of all their tapes.
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Yes, that would be simple, but then I would have to wait until trial in 2011. I prefer to talk about actual physical evidence instead of home foreclosures, Todd M's helecopter and beach activities and CA green shirts and gum chewing. AZ brings up some very valid points and has me thinking, but it is still just speculation that the cotton rotted away. There is no report from any official source that the cotton rotted away. I hope we can all continue to discuss the physical evidence. Moo
 
notthatsmart said:
I would guess that the manufacture or whoever sets the specs would use several different types of fabrics to make different grades of industrial duct tape. There may be many reasons for this to include temperature, waterproofing, fireproofing, non toxic. There may even be products with metal inside for core. So I am not sold on that, that Henkel only makes duct tape with a cotton fiber mix. I don't even believe that Henkel makes the duct tape. I believe that they spec it and use their name on it, but shurefine distributes it and sells it. We don't know who actually makes it. We don't even know if it is made here in the USA. What I am saying is we don't know enough about the tape to assume that it is made with cotton. Do you know if She looked at her duct tape through a microscope and found no cotton fibers? This is not a naked eye thing. If cotton was in that duct tape at some point, there should be trace evidence of that. I don't want to get into a circular argument that is not productive to the thread, I just want to point out that there are a lot of assumptions being made here when the Fbi report actually stated that the duct tape was consistent with coming from a different source/roll. IMO

Ps to answer your first question. I would think there are no cotton fibers in the first place simply because there were no cotton fibers there.
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But to my way of thinking, this is and always will be a circular argument, NTS. It's circular because there are so precious few things that can be proven to a 100% truth. And isn't that what you're repeatedly seeking from the state's discovery? :hypno::hypno::hypno::hypno::hypno:
 
I'm certainly not an expert but my understanding is that what makes duct tape duct tape is it's strength and that comes from the fact that there are cotton threads. And wouldn't cotton be cheaper than just about any other fabric out there that could be used. Anyone know??? JMO
 
The bigger picture you are missing is that a scientist didn't kill Caylee. There was no making sure to find and use duct tape specifically without cotton. This was laziness on Casey's part, pure and simple. She grabbed the nearest duct tape roll available and used it. All the jury will care about is that it's the same tape, and by logical reasoning, the cotton part disinegrated because it was under water, out in the Florida elements for six months, which is an incredibly long time in seriously bad conditions. The jury lives in Florida, and so it is not hard for them to believe that all of the cotton could be gone. Just seeing pictures of how degraded it is will be enough. I highly doubt there will be arguments in the jury room of whether the cotton was really there to begin with. And no, no mysterious third person with an obsession wth duct tape specs killed Caylee either. Just because you want something to be there doesn't mean there is. These types of arguments are really getting old.
 
Just want to remind you all that it takes more than 1 person to argue. If you don't want to argue about something, then don't. :) Particularly don't argue about it and then complain about arguing about it.

It truly is that easy.
 
Read back through old duct tape threads and came across the following information. FYI

One distinction that links both samples of tape – from the body and the gas can – is an imprint on the tape, which the records indicate was added to only those Fire Guard DUCK rolls sold after 2005: “Henkel Consumer Adhesives Inc., Avon, OH 44011, MAX. TEMP. 200 [degree character] F.

That specific tape is so rare, it is not even available at Home Depot, but was sold almost entirely at Lowe’s during those years, according to the records.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/20713777/detail.html
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Looking at the specs revision 2, in 2/22/05, is where it is designated that the logo was added to the production of the Fire Guard Duck 200[degree character]. Look at the comment on page 4 where this is delienated vs. pg. 6 where it is not mentioned.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10725800/Henkel-Tape-Specs

Moreover, according to an Email one of our WSers received from a Henkel rep. the duct tape was discontinued in 2007. This will drastically cut down the numbers.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3538074&postcount=469"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Duct Tape Match[/ame]
 
If GA had bought shurtape instead of Henkel it would have made the SA's case a lot harder, but he didn't did he? JMO
 
I believe I get the gist of the cottonless tape debate.

One question. Is there a logical mechanism that would explain the absence of a poly-based (vs. cotton-based) mesh? I guess I could come up with something if I had to, but, interested in what this might be for anyone that has focesed on this point much more than I have.

Related question if not already answered. What is the composition of the tape backing (silver portion upon which, "Henkel", is stamped?
 
BondJamesBond said:
I believe I get the gist of the cottonless tape debate.

One question. Is there a logical mechanism that would explain the absence of a poly-based (vs. cotton-based) mesh? I guess I could come up with something if I had to, but, interested in what this might be for anyone that has focesed on this point much more than I have.

Related question if not already answered. What is the composition of the tape backing (silver portion upon which, "Henkel", is stamped?
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Most duct tapes are made of polyethlene and glue with a cloth inside. So I think you mean the polyethlene. The industrial grades are determined by the layers of polyethlene and the type of cloth. The type of cloth can help determine the fire resistance and strength. The cloth can be a cotton poly mix or just a polyester. I would think that being only polyester would either be more fire resistant or cheaper. I suppose each country (which henkel is in several countries) would have to make products based on what is available to them.

I do not know why Henkel would pay a company to make their tape with a logo on it if they were only going to use one grade. Moo
 
notthatsmart said:
Oh i agree, was just pointing out that tape without cotton is made by shurtape. Is that not the distributor for Henkel?
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---------
Please read ALL the threads on Duct tape. Your questions are answered.I live near Avon and checked this All out. Tape is still carried at WalMart,some older Henkel and some newer Shurtape.
 
FWIW, I understand & agree that the rate of decomposition of mesh fibers (of any composition) sandwiched between layers of PE or vinyl-backed tape would be expected to be slower than a non-layered sample...it is worth considering that neither of these backings are waterproof...they are water-resistant. Which is to say water will permeate through them over time exposing the mesh between to the same effects as directly exposed fibers.

BTW...just found a fascinating report on the use of textile degredation to determine PMI. Will link later tonight if this hasn't already been surfaced here.
 
Henkel Corp. sold its Northeast Ohio-based consumer brands, including Duck Tape, and its Avon facility to Shurtape Technologies LLC of Hickory, N.C. in June 2009--long after the manufacturing of the tape in question was discontinued.
 
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