The Front Porch

[Meri]

BBM:

Now that is an interesting "possibility" !

And yes, DB's statement : that she did NOT want to look into the backyard because she was AFRAID of what she MIGHT find ...

:waitasec: So ... your baby is "missing" and you do NOT want to check the backyard ? Hmmm ... now WHY is that, Deb ?

:moo: :moo: :moo:

I must be the only one who didn't find that statement from her to be odd. I just don't. I took it as she was afraid that Baby Lisa may have been killed and left back there, or something along those lines.

 

[4Jacy]

BBM:

Now that is an interesting "possibility" !

And yes, DB's statement : that she did NOT want to look into the backyard because she was AFRAID of what she MIGHT find ...

:waitasec: So ... your baby is "missing" and you do NOT want to check the backyard ? Hmmm ... now WHY is that, Deb ?

:moo: :moo: :moo:

I know, as soon as I heard that remark, I got goose bumps. Do you remember how soon after Baby Lisa went missing DB said that?

 

[psychomarz]

I know that no one can know for certain *exactly* how they would react if their child went missing--- but I'm pretty darn sure the basic instinct is to find the child as opposed to avoid places you're afraid the child might be. I mean, on the rare occasion I lose sight of my son, I look everywhere as fast as I can (he's usually hiding under the bed and gives a shriek of laughter when I find him).
When you lose track of your child, THAT is fear.
I felt in my heart that DB was guilty when I heard her say she didn't check the back yard because she was afraid of what she might find. To me, that sounds like prior knowledge. If I were terrified of my child being in the backyard (or the pool, or guzzling chemicals under the sink, whatever) that would actually be one of the first places I'd look. It helps you keep from screaming in a panic when you see that the front door is still locked-- they didn't wander outside, so they must be inside somewhere.

 

[psychomarz]

BBM I will never forget that phrase!
Yes did baby Lisa fall off the deck?
Unsupervised..........looking for her mother????:banghead:

This is an interesting theory-- I'm not sure how high the back deck is (it's hard to tell from the pictures I have), but I know it has 6 steps to get up on it from the yard including the "step" that is the deck itself. The floor of the deck varies in height from the sloped lawn. Closer to the house it is about hip level, whereas at its furthest point it is near shoulder level with investigators.
The spokes on the deck don't appear to have enough room in between them for a baby to fit through, which leaves the stairs.
In reference to your theory... did anyone else think it was odd that the parents used only a physical description of Lisa? I mean, at 10 months, some babies are more advanced than others at various things. Crawling, walking, talking, etc. Physical feats that a baby can accomplish seem just as good as identifying material as visual characteristics. We've seen photos where Lisa is standing/leaning against a glass door, so I think it's safe to say she could hold/pull herself up. How good was she at "cruising?" (When an infant can walk while holding on to something like a couch or wall).
I think the biggest mystery in this whole scenario would be: where is Lisa's body (if you believe she is no longer with us) or how did Lisa get away from the house (if you believe she was sold or knowingly taken in another fashion).
And for the life of me, I can't figure it out. Cadaver dogs and Luminol would show evidence of foul play-- and while it was leaked the dog hit a positive at the foot of the bed, I wonder if it hit anywhere else?
And assuming Lisa was going to be taken way that night with her parent's knowledge... how random would that surprise job at Starbucks have been? Or was that a lucky coincidence on their part? So many loose ends... so many possibilities...

 

[psychomarz]

This was not any different this night as any other night. These neighbors were always sitting out front on the front steps. I do not know how often they were out back, but virtually every evening they were out front. That is exactly how I am familiar with them.

Something has really bothered me as I've continued to try to come up with reasonable answers about this case. I started off in the beginning completely supporting DB, but as her story changed (via her own words) I fell harder with each change.

I now believe that baby Lisa was either found dead or died during the early evening, after JI went to work. I personally believe it was an accident of some kind, and by DB's hand.

I think that the entire night of sitting on the front stoop was so that as many people as possible would see her for hours on end, with a friend, and seeing her would provide her with an alibi. In looking at the difference between the front and back of the house, there is such an extreme contrast from front to back. What would be a logical reason that DB and SB would sit in the front vs the back. They have a nice deck that have chairs. Why sit on hard cement for hours on end.

Here is the difference between the front and back. What do you think?

Front porch:

Back deck:

Speaking of these pictures.... which ones are actually Lisa's house? Because I've been to several different sites, and there seem to be pictures of two different (but similar) houses. The back deck I see them tearing up is not the one in these pictures, but this photo of the back porch is also one I see in reference to Lisa.
Has anyone else noticed that?
(so confused!)

 

[askfornina]

Speaking of these pictures.... which ones are actually Lisa's house? Because I've been to several different sites, and there seem to be pictures of two different (but similar) houses. The back deck I see them tearing up is not the one in these pictures, but this photo of the back porch is also one I see in reference to Lisa.
Has anyone else noticed that?
(so confused!)

Those pictures are both Lisa's house. The back deck wasn't torn out of her house, that was another house in the 3800 block of N.Brighton. The house was demolished that day, also.

http://www.kshb.com/dpp/news/region...h-for-lisa-irwin-moves-to-nearby-vacant-house

After arriving to the house at about 10:30 a.m. this morning, authorities set up a tripod around a well underneath a deck on the home in the 3800 block of North Brighton. Two investigators, sent down one at a time, rappelled into the well.

 

[Little Ol Me]

I must be the only one who didn't find that statement from her to be odd. I just don't. I took it as she was afraid that Baby Lisa may have been killed and left back there, or something along those lines.

No Meri, you're not the only one. I took her to mean that she was just too frightened to go back there.
In her situation I think I would have been too. Jeremy was there and I'm sure he looked.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

No Meri, you're not the only one. I took her to mean that she was just too frightened to go back there.
In her situation I think I would have been too. Jeremy was there and I'm sure he looked.

JMO and MOO ...

BBM: IF -- IF Deb was "too frightened" to go back there and check for Lisa ... can you just imagine how frightened a helpless, 10 month old baby would feel to be back there all ALONE ? :banghead:

A "truly frantic parent" would be running around all over the home, the front and back yards, etc. not even considering, or thinking about their OWN SELF or "safety" IF -- IF their child was "kidnapped" ...

JMO but this statement made by Deb really showed "selfishness" ... as well as HINK !

:moo::moo::moo:

 

[redheadedgal]

the statement about deb not going to the back yard to look b/c she was afraid of what she might find was made public the friday following the search... it was included in the affidavit for the search... i've not seen an actual date affixed to it yet... maybe it's in the search warrant itself? maybe nina knows more?

 

[askfornina]

the statement about deb not going to the back yard to look b/c she was afraid of what she might find was made public the friday following the search... it was included in the affidavit for the search... i've not seen an actual date affixed to it yet... maybe it's in the search warrant itself? maybe nina knows more?

No specific date attached to it. Page 5, paragraph 9:

"Investigative interviews with the people involved revealed conflicting information for clear direction in the investigation. Bradley made the statement she did not initially look for her baby behind the house because she "was afraid of what she might find."

http://media2.nbcactionnews.com/NWT/pdf/20111021_irwinwarrant.pdf

 

[norest4thewicked]

No Meri, you're not the only one. I took her to mean that she was just too frightened to go back there.
In her situation I think I would have been too. Jeremy was there and I'm sure he looked.

I wouldn't have been scared for myself. I would have been scared for my baby. And, because of this, I would have covered, and still be covering, every square inch of that home and area within 100 miles. I wouldn't be hiding in a house, hoping for this all to go away.

 

[psychomarz]

Those pictures are both Lisa's house. The back deck wasn't torn out of her house, that was another house in the 3800 block of N.Brighton. The house was demolished that day, also.

http://www.kshb.com/dpp/news/region...h-for-lisa-irwin-moves-to-nearby-vacant-house

I think I also had one other picture confused--- the house with the well under the deck that they tore up. I'm still new to websleuths and dont know how to add pictures, so I did what I could with quotes

 

[snoofer]

after all this time i've just realised....DB said they were watching a fairytale movie,what movie lasts 4hours and a kids one at that????? most kids movies are 90mins at the most and even if they stayed in the room watching the movie until it was finished what did they do for the other 2 1/2 hours? just sit quietly and twiddle their thumbs?:waitasec::banghead:

My neighbours still have smallish kids (8 and 12) and I know when we are over there on weekends, her kids play video games while we adults are outside. However, they are constantly outside for SOMETHING ie asking for a drink, or a treat, or a hug, or a "oh I forgot to tell you something", or a "Can I" etc etc. As well the parents are constantly taking turns in and out of house to check on the kids.

It does seem as though not much checking on the kids was going on from the reports although I am not sure how often they were checked on. It seems these kids were much younger than my neighbours kids and I could see how things could get quickly out of hand if noone was regularly checking on the kids. It certainly wouldn't be a safe idea to not check regularly. To me if it was not the other children's bedtimes then they should have been outside being monitored with the parents as they sound too young to NOT be monitored especially with a baby back there.:moo:

 

[pistolina]

My neighbours still have smallish kids (8 and 12) and I know when we are over there on weekends, her kids play video games while we adults are outside. However, they are constantly outside for SOMETHING ie asking for a drink, or a treat, or a hug, or a "oh I forgot to tell you something", or a "Can I" etc etc. As well the parents are constantly taking turns in and out of house to check on the kids.

It does seem as though not much checking on the kids was going on from the reports although I am not sure how often they were checked on. It seems these kids were much younger than my neighbours kids and I could see how things could get quickly out of hand if noone was regularly checking on the kids. It certainly wouldn't be a safe idea to not check regularly. To me if it was not the other children's bedtimes then they should have been outside being monitored with the parents as they sound too young to NOT be monitored especially with a baby back there.:moo:

I agree. I have 2 kids; 5 yrs old and 10 months old. There is no way I could sit outside my house for more than 5 minutes without someone needing something. There is also no way I could put a sick baby in bed at 6 something and go outside without a baby monitor. I have found with both girls, when they are sick they want to be held and loved, not alone in a bed. But I guess all kids (and parents) are different. Could be that everyone in the Bradly/Irwin house is use to fending for themselves once mommy starts her "adult time".

 

[RANCH]

Actually we do. Shane told LE it was evident both women had been drinking even though he didn't witness them drink.

I brought this over to this thread because it seems to be more appropriate. I'm not sure what Shane told LE but we do know what he told CNN's Jim Spellman.

So he goes over sometimes around roughly 8pm and stays for about an hour and a half. They all smoke. He says he wasn't drinking and though he didn't see the ladies actually pouring booze into their cups he said he could tell they were drinking...having fun, a little loud.

So while he didn't see them pour alcohol into their cups, he knew that they were drinking. His comments are interesting in the fact that while he was there for an hour and a half, he didn't see them pour anything. So either they had really big cups or they didn't drink much in that hour and a half. Or maybe he wasn't paying attention when they did pour. Hard to say.

If you put Shane's description of what DB and SB were doing on the porch along with the surveillance video of DB buying alcohol plus DB's own admission, you end up with some strong circumstantial evidence that DB was drinking that night. How intoxicated she was is impossible to tell, but it appears to me that the drinking she did may have a bearing on this case.

It could be a factor in why the front door was left unlocked. It could also help explain how someone could have come into the house and taken Lisa without DB hearing it. MOO.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7606535&postcount=113"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Questions for CNN reporter Jim Spellman - Q & A Only **NO DISCUSSION HERE PLEASE**[/ame]

 

[KsStormy]

I brought this over to this thread because it seems to be more appropriate. I'm not sure what Shane told LE but we do know what he told CNN's Jim Spellman.

So while he didn't see them pour alcohol into their cups, he knew that they were drinking. His comments are interesting in the fact that while he was there for an hour and a half, he didn't see them pour anything. So either they had really big cups or they didn't drink much in that hour and a half. Or maybe he wasn't paying attention when they did pour. Hard to say.

If you put Shane's description of what DB and SB were doing on the porch along with the surveillance video of DB buying alcohol plus DB's own admission, you end up with some strong circumstantial evidence that DB was drinking that night. How intoxicated she was is impossible to tell, but it appears to me that the drinking she did may have a bearing on this case.

It could be a factor in why the front door was left unlocked. It could also help explain how someone could have come into the house and taken Lisa without DB hearing it. MOO.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Questions for CNN reporter Jim Spellman - Q & A Only **NO DISCUSSION HERE PLEASE**

It also shows that she is a very selfish & negligent parent, leaving an ill infant alone for hours while she indulged in alcohol. MOO

 

[cityslick]

It also shows that she is a very selfish & negligent parent, leaving an ill infant alone for hours while she indulged in alcohol. MOO

I'm not sure there are a lot of people that would disagree with you. Selfish & negligent doesn't equal to murder IMO though.

 

[KsStormy]

I'm not sure there are a lot of people that would disagree with you. Selfish & negligent doesn't equal to murder IMO though.

True, but the effects of alcohol on behavior are well known. I have seen her temper displayed on TV interviews, and Jeremy's as well. They are both known to abuse alcohol, so anything is possible, in my opinion.

 

[beach]

True, but the effects of alcohol on behavior are well known. I have seen her temper displayed on TV interviews, and Jeremy's as well. They are both known to abuse alcohol, so anything is possible, in my opinion.

Where is the evidence that Jeremy abuses alcohol? I understand your suspicions about Deb considering she freely admits she enjoys her wine and the night Lisa disappeared she admits she was drunk, but I have never seen anything that suggests Jeremy has a problem.

Please be careful with these sort of accusations/assumptions. Before you know it, people assume they are based on fact without any reason to back it up.

 

[4Jacy]

I'm not sure there are a lot of people that would disagree with you. Selfish & negligent doesn't equal to murder IMO though.

Well, it does for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!