The GB4 and Shannan Gilbert-Connecting the dots

[giagreen]

I always forget that MW and ALC were not there yet. But makes even more sense to me. After a few months and realizing the cops didn't really have a clue figured he could go back to his routine. Idk

 

[CriminalMinds]

I always forget that MW and ALC were not there yet. But makes even more sense to me. After a few months and realizing the cops didn't really have a clue figured he could go back to his routine. Idk

see--odd right? if he went back to routine, then by nature/impulse he would have put SG there as well--1+1 keeps coming up 0

 

[Ruminations]

Hello----do you mind if I chime in with a theory? I think it is highly possible that one or more of the players involved with SG was indeed the LISK, but either there was no murder planned that night,or the plans changed because the "party" was too big---drifter, JB, call to CVS that could be traced---and MP came. That would explain why SG was not placed* in the same location. I find it strange that SG was found in the same general area she was seen running so long after the fact. If I were bringing my cadaver dog out for training with it vaguely in mind that SG disappeared, I would start in the area she was found, not where the GB4 were found.

What if a neighbor knew what the LISK was up to, and knew the place that he (I know "he" is an assumption) placed bodies. Somebody could have called in an anonymous tip about the area figuring that it was where SG probably ended up, knowing the LISK. Or perhaps someone called in a tip about one of the subsequent women and the dog handler put it together as in the same general area SG disappeared. There has to be a reason the dog handler picked that location for "training". I know it seems loose, but I think that the fact that the GB4 were found allegedly looking for SG suggests that they are tied together, especially since her ultimate location was more intuitive.

*I don't know if the evidence is more that SG was murdered and dumped, murdered and placed, or if, possibly after an attempted murder, she was abandoned while running and freaking out---with complete indifference to her life.

 

[hawkshaw]

I like the way some of you folks are starting to think. I believe much could be learned about SG's visit to JB's house and she wound up dead. I have to go with the notion that GB4 and SG are connected until proven otherwise.

I can't understand how JB was eliminated as a suspect so soon into the case.

 

[PennyPie7]

I like the way some of you folks are starting to think. I believe much could be learned about SG's visit to JB's house and she wound up dead. I have to go with the notion that GB4 and SG are connected until proven otherwise.

I can't understand how JB was eliminated as a suspect so soon into the case.

Well I guess if they have nothing to go on, it makes some sense. He did cooperate with police, let them tear through his home, take his car, took a polygraph willingly. Can't arrest someone for just being creepy/weird, lol. It's really some unbelievable bad luck though, if it turns out he really has nothing to do with any of the murders.

 

[hawkshaw]

Well I guess if they have nothing to go on, it makes some sense. He did cooperate with police, let them tear through his home, take his car, took a polygraph willingly. Can't arrest someone for just being creepy/weird, lol. It's really some unbelievable bad luck though, if it turns out he really has nothing to do with any of the murders.

No, you can't arrest someone for being creepy and weird - BUT it is a good place to start ! I think we can ALL agree on the idea the killer(s) is creepy and weird.

"let them tear through his home." Do you really think he had any choice. Truth is in NYS there is really no such thing as a "consensual search." If you think any detective worth his salt is going to search a house in a case like this and do it without a search warrant.....OK, maybe in Suffolk County.

Who said Brewer was cooperative? OK, I saw Dormer say that he was. Dormer pitched in on a You-Tube video with his new employer Arrow Security. The Arrow logo was always prominently displayed during the 7 or so hours of interviews. Dormer looked more suited for a Howdy Doody commercial.

I am not saying Brewer did it or didn't do it. What I am saying, IMO, he cannot be eliminated at this point in time unless you know who the kiiler(s) is.

IMO, the whole 'investigation' is a cover-up to hide the truth.

 

[PennyPie7]

No, you can't arrest someone for being creepy and weird - BUT it is a good place to start ! I think we can ALL agree on the idea the killer(s) is creepy and weird.

"let them tear through his home." Do you really think he had any choice. Truth is in NYS there is really no such thing as a "consensual search." If you think any detective worth his salt is going to search a house in a case like this and do it without a search warrant.....OK, maybe in Suffolk County.

Who said Brewer was cooperative? OK, I saw Dormer say that he was. Dormer pitched in on a You-Tube video with his new employer Arrow Security. The Arrow logo was always prominently displayed during the 7 or so hours of interviews. Dormer looked more suited for a Howdy Doody commercial.

I am not saying Brewer did it or didn't do it. What I am saying, IMO, he cannot be eliminated at this point in time unless you know who the kiiler(s) is.

IMO, the whole 'investigation' is a cover-up to hide the truth.

Oh, I certainly agree with you 100% on that!

 

[guardian1234]

U may be correct I think this girl took something in that house that night that made her flip out . I believe she was not handled by NY police via 911 . Many errors . If he lives there it was a perfect storm

 

[maddalena1]

I have wondered the same thing but the call to Melissa's little sister makes me think a sadistic serial killer.

 

[Sillybilly]

This post lands at random.


Can we please get back to the subject of this thread which is:

"The GB4 and Shannan Gilbert-Connecting the dots".

:tyou:

 

[maddalena1]

I will never believe that Shannon Gilbert was not related to the lisk. Proving it is another story. Is it possible these sex parties elevated into kill an escort party? Perhaps that is why the MOS are different. Each guy gets a turn? However, in my opinion there is one very evil ring leader. If John bittrolf is involved, I don't think it's him. Is there any place in the world that this happens? Perhaps it was learned there and brought back to be practiced in long island? I was devastated to hear about Maris death. I have been following this case since 2010 and like so many others believe that not enough was done when Shannon first disappeared. She knew that she was about to die and the answers are at ground zero. Knowing who was at brewers that night is the key to solving this case.

 

[maddalena1]

Someone found Shannon earring and jacket in front of brewers. I believe it may have been her little sister that found her earring. However, if good police work was applied at the time of Shannon disappearance it should have been found. Earrings just don't fall out. Some kind of struggle likely ensued. Ask yourselves who's cunning enough to be the ring leader of sex parties that end in the death of a sex worker. Is there any place on earth that hat this happens? Has the unsubstantiated ever been to any of these places to learn of this practice and who? Yes ,it might be circumstantial but at least it will provide a start. If it was a sicko serial killer he would not likely stop and there would be more bodies. That's not happening cause this ring of men are afraid of getting caught. That's my theory behind this case. Always has been but nothing ever seems to get done. I do not believe this case will ever be solved.

 

[hoot owl]

Someone found Shannon earring and jacket in front of brewers. I believe it may have been her little sister that found her earring. However, if good police work was applied at the time of Shannon disappearance it should have been found. Earrings just don't fall out. Some kind of struggle likely ensued. Ask yourselves who's cunning enough to be the ring leader of sex parties that end in the death of a sex worker. Is there any place on earth that hat this happens? Has the unsubstantiated ever been to any of these places to learn of this practice and who? Yes ,it might be circumstantial but at least it will provide a start. If it was a sicko serial killer he would not likely stop and there would be more bodies. That's not happening cause this ring of men are afraid of getting caught. That's my theory behind this case. Always has been but nothing ever seems to get done. I do not believe this case will ever be solved.

I believe that Shannan's earring and jacket were intentionally placed at Brewers
because the killer knew that the family and loved ones were at the front gate
and coming into OB property.

I believe it was placed there to be intentionally cruel and to watch the family suffer.

I do not believe the SCPD messed up on that one; I believe it was intentional.

How did the killer know the family was coming through the front gate?
It's a very very small community and some people who live near that front gate
could very well be "gate keepers" and word speads fast in OB.

 

[deedee21]

I believe that Shannan's earring and jacket were intentionally placed at Brewers
because the killer knew that the family and loved ones were at the front gate
and coming into OB property.

I believe it was placed there to be intentionally cruel and to watch the family suffer.

I do not believe the SCPD messed up on that one; I believe it was intentional.

How did the killer know the family was coming through the front gate?
It's a very very small community and some people who live near that front gate
could very well be "gate keepers" and word speads fast in OB.

Shannans jacket was not found outside of Brewers when her family arrived. Shannans earring probably fell off when she fell down her stairs.

 

[fred&edna]

I will never believe that Shannon Gilbert was not related to the lisk. Proving it is another story. Is it possible these sex parties elevated into kill an escort party? Perhaps that is why the MOS are different. Each guy gets a turn? However, in my opinion there is one very evil ring leader. If John bittrolf is involved, I don't think it's him. Is there any place in the world that this happens? Perhaps it was learned there and brought back to be practiced in long island? I was devastated to hear about Maris death. I have been following this case since 2010 and like so many others believe that not enough was done when Shannon first disappeared. She knew that she was about to die and the answers are at ground zero. Knowing who was at brewers that night is the key to solving this case.

I agree that proving she was a victim of LISK is a problem. But, I trust the opinion of Vernon J Geberth. This is no "proof", but it definitely bolsters the opinion that SG's death was not accidental.

Geberth, who said on 48 Hours (approx 40:34, link below)... "SG fits the same profile and victimology as the GB4 and I find it highly unusual that they (LE) would be talking about her as an accidental death."

(Geberth's quote follows Dormer saying, "there's no indication that SG is connected to the ten other victims that we've found... ")

[video=youtube;66lhknyPZU0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66lhknyPZU0[/video]

**AND, remember that now (2016) when asked (in court) to release SG's 911 recording LE refuses saying it will jeopardize/interfere with their investigation into the deaths of the other victims.

 

[Robert Anderson]

Geberth, who said on 48 Hours (approx 40:34, link below)... "SG fits the same profile and victimology as the GB4 and I find it highly unusual that they (LE) would be talking about her as an accidental death."

This statement is problematic. She was the right height, weight and age and of course she used Craigslist. But there is a big problem/difference: she used her own driver and that driver took her to a house where the john had truthfully identified himself. And that driver waited outside the house during the trick. The other victims didn't use the same methodology the nights they disappeared.

I think it is helpful if we divide the Oak Beach case into separate questions/scenarios if we are trying to tie SG with the G4.

As an aside I think that if one wants to consider Bittrolff as LISK it becomes very hard to fit SG into the case. Yes, I realize there is a potential Oak Beach connection with Bittrolff but how he would have swooped in that night is beyond me.

1) Was SG willfully murdered?
@@@@ A) If so was she murdered by LISK?
@@@@ B) Was she murdered by an Oak Beach resident that is not LISK?
@@@@@@@@ What was the motive?

2) Was there a failure to protect her by (an)Oak Beach resident(s), resulting in her accidental death?
@@@@ A) Was this then covered up by a conspiracy of silence?
@@@@ B) Was this conspiracy of silence extended to disposal of her body and belongings?
@@@@@@@@ There is a very small window of opportunity for such a conspiracy to develop; how and when did it organize?
@@@@@@@@ @@@Why did they decide to dispose of her body and belongings right near the community?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@Why would Pak go along with such a conspiracy?

3) Was this just a sad and tragic episode fueled by mental illness and drugs?

4) Was this just a sad and tragic episode?

 

[marble]

2) Was there a failure to protect her by (an)Oak Beach resident(s), resulting in her accidental death?

……………..

@@@@@@@@ @@@Why did they decide to dispose of her body and belongings right near the community?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@Why would Pak go along with such a conspiracy?

All the others are good questions, but I'm pulling these two out because- *of course* the most logical thing to do would be to dispose of her body and belongings in the marsh. Like, how would it be ruled accidental if she turned up miles away instead?

And in the remote possibility there was a conspiracy, why would it mean that Pak had to have knowledge of it? There are scenarios where her accidental death could have occurred after Pak left.

 

[Robert Anderson]

All the others are good questions, but I'm pulling these two out because- *of course* the most logical thing to do would be to dispose of her body and belongings in the marsh. Like, how would it be ruled accidental if she turned up miles away instead?

And in the remote possibility there was a conspiracy, why would it mean that Pak had to have knowledge of it? There are scenarios where her accidental death could have occurred after Pak left.

Just bear in mind that no matter what the Oak Beach residents decided to do - whether it was one person or a group - they had to make a quick decision. And her clothing could connect them forensically to the murder.

At 5:24am she is banging on Brennan's door and then goes knocking on a few more doors. If we allow 5 minutes+ for that it's almost impossible for foul play before the police arrival and dawn breaking. Not to mention that even more neighbors are alerted that something is wrong.

 

[fred&edna]

This statement is problematic. She was the right height, weight and age and of course she used Craigslist. But there is a big problem/difference: she used her own driver and that driver took her to a house where the john had truthfully identified himself. And that driver waited outside the house during the trick. The other victims didn't use the same methodology the nights they disappeared.

I think it is helpful if we divide the Oak Beach case into separate questions/scenarios if we are trying to tie SG with the G4.

As an aside I think that if one wants to consider Bittrolff as LISK it becomes very hard to fit SG into the case. Yes, I realize there is a potential Oak Beach connection with Bittrolff but how he would have swooped in that night is beyond me.

1) Was SG willfully murdered?
@@@@ A) If so was she murdered by LISK?
@@@@ B) Was she murdered by an Oak Beach resident that is not LISK?
@@@@@@@@ What was the motive?

2) Was there a failure to protect her by (an)Oak Beach resident(s), resulting in her accidental death?
@@@@ A) Was this then covered up by a conspiracy of silence?
@@@@ B) Was this conspiracy of silence extended to disposal of her body and belongings?
@@@@@@@@ There is a very small window of opportunity for such a conspiracy to develop; how and when did it organize?
@@@@@@@@ @@@Why did they decide to dispose of her body and belongings right near the community?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@Why would Pak go along with such a conspiracy?

3) Was this just a sad and tragic episode fueled by mental illness and drugs?

4) Was this just a sad and tragic episode?

Geberth's statement is considerably less problematic than SG's entire case.

1) B - An Oak Beach resident who is not LISK (or maybe is LISK?)*

Must there be "motive"? Maybe he is mentally ill and was also on drugs that night.

 

[Robert Anderson]

Geberth's statement is considerably less problematic than SG's entire case.

1) B - An Oak Beach resident who is not LISK (or maybe is LISK?)*

Must there be "motive"? Maybe he is mentally ill and was also on drugs that night.

Good point! But if he was high it makes it also less likely he conceived a credible cover up on the spot. If you are referring to Brewer the problem is compounded once SG leaves his house. He's really lost control of the narrative at that point.