The jonbenet Ramsey letter

[sunspun]

Why didn’t JR follow the protocol? That is definitely the $64k question.

Imo, another (better) question that should be asked is why JR would choose to include kidnapping if he was going to stage a coverup, when he knew certain protocols were called for by his job in case of a kidnapping, protocols that he didn't want to follow, as evidenced by the fact that he didn't follow them. Seems like kidnapping would be something he would rule out for this reason, when he was deciding on how to stage the coverup. imo.

But back to the topic of this particular forum thread, re: the RN... I've never understood why the Sharpie keeps being used as evidence for PDI, as if there was only one Sharpie ever made in the world. Even only one black fine-tip Sharpie or whatever it was. Pretty sure those are pretty common, imo. And as far as i know, forensics can't tell us whether it was that same pen found in the house that was used. Just that same type of (common) pen (and even that seems to allow room for other possible pens that look the same on the page.) And the fact that Patsy's Sharpie pen was found to be in its usual place? Maybe that's because it was not the pen that was used to write the note! That can be evidence of that, maybe more so than evidence that it was. I'm not saying I believe either way, just that imo, there is room for reasonable doubt on that point.

 

[TizerisT]

Do we know if Oliva knew the Ramsey family before that night?

We know he lived very close and has an obsession with JB, at least after she died

 

[CloudedTruth]

Police wouldnt just stamp around in the room where the body was. The footprints are a major red flag, particularly at the escape point and a fresh one in the little cellar room with JB. You can't just ignore the image that this is creating.

When the police arrived, they thought they were dealing with a kidnapping. They searched the house which included the basement, but did not go in the wine cellar because they A. didn't know it was there and B. didn't see the latch. There was only a partial footprint in that room, which was right in front of where the additional wrapped presents were. Since BR admitted that he had been peeking, the partial footprint in the wine cellar can be traced to him.

The police did not know this was a murder scene until after the body was found at approximately 1:10PM. No one tramped around in the room the body was found.

 

[TizerisT]

Dr Phil: "And I think your dad said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed then you snuck downstairs to play."
Burke: "Yeah, I had some toy that I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kind of in bed, wanting to get this thing out."

Burke went downstairs to return to his toys by the christmas tree on the main floor, not down in the basement!!

 

[CloudedTruth]

Imo, another (better) question that should be asked is why JR would choose to include kidnapping if he was going to stage a coverup, when he knew certain protocols were called for by his job in case of a kidnapping, protocols that he didn't want to follow, as evidenced by the fact that he didn't follow them. Seems like kidnapping would be something he would rule out for this reason, when he was deciding on how to stage the coverup. imo.

But back to the topic of this particular forum thread, re: the RN... I've never understood why the Sharpie keeps being used as evidence for PDI, as if there was only one Sharpie ever made in the world. Even only one black fine-tip Sharpie or whatever it was. Pretty sure those are pretty common, imo. And as far as i know, forensics can't tell us whether it was that same pen found in the house that was used. Just that same type of (common) pen (and even that seems to allow room for other possible pens that look the same on the page.) And the fact that Patsy's Sharpie pen was found to be in its usual place? Maybe that's because it was not the pen that was used to write the note! That can be evidence of that, maybe more so than evidence that it was. I'm not saying I believe either way, just that imo, there is room for reasonable doubt on that point.

I don't pretend to know what was in the R's heads as to the choices they made in the cover up. Since we know that phone records were purposely wiped that would have shown calls made that night / early morning, I suspect that Jr consulted someone who advised him. I don't think they had many choices. JBR is dead, whether it was intentional or accidental, and most likely by a family member. This is a socially prominent family with the father running a very successful and touted business in the community. Even if it could be proven to be accidental, this is a stigma that would have followed them forever. I think it was decided that they could claim panic and being led by emotions as to why protocol wasn't followed. And I have never heard of any repercussions, so from what we know that probable claim worked. Panic and chaos would be expected.

The sharpie was used to write the ransom note, and the ransom note is at the very heart of this case. Since the note was written in the house and on a notepad also in the house, it follows that the pen was probably from the house too. I think most people look at those two things as going hand in hand. The particular pen was one that was out of production and was matched to the note by the kind of ink used, which was water based.

 

[jbc]

It'd amaze me if not, but has anybody ever noted that RN author was tremoring? You see those waves in the writing of people with essential tremor. But, I'd suppose that someone that was very stressed to the point of tremor would show the same effect. Tremor = extreme stress in the absence of neurological disorder.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Then what is this outside the entrance window in this pic? And the window next to it for comparison. Ok, granted, the Hi-Tec one was in the wine cellar but there was others by that window. And I can assure you that a suitcase, standing flush next to a open window, would have certainly had a footprint on it, at the very least as a practise to see how tricky it is.

This one's easy. Firstly, take another look at the disturbed area complete with shoe marks, vs the next, undisturbed window.
And then the explanation of the entrance method: John broke the window in the summer and turned the lock to get in while locked out. It was never repaired. The intruder did the same thing, but the glass was already broken. Look at where the intruders hand came in and turned the lock. That is extremely easy for a skilled creeper. And just because part of a spiderweb is intact, doesn't mean anything. The spiderweb was located all the way at the top of the hole that he put his arm in.

View attachment 486519View attachment 486520

As a side note, despite the fact that they are marked as crime scene photos, it cannot be verified when they were taken or by whom. It could have been Ramsey investigators after the house was released back to them, it could have been Lou Smit as he liked to show them during televised interviews as part of his intruder argument. In short, we do not know where these originated from. The Ramsey team successfully staged some photos after the release of the home back to them in order to bolster their intruder theory.

 

[Gunther Toody]

There is no intruder nor evidence of.


Source for sharpie thing?

True, there was no proof of an intruder.
If we look closely at the RN, what pops out?

If Gary Oliva wrote the note, how did he know John Ramsey lived there?
How did he know John Ramsey's exact Christmas bonus, which would have been transferred by direct deposit?
How did he know Ramsey had a daughter?
How did he know the Ramseys were "southern?"

Since he didn't bring anything with him to carry out the crime, he would have had to search the house for a pen, paper, duct tape, cordage, and a clean pair of oversized underwear for the body.

Add to that, he would have had to have staked out the Ramsey house, found a broken unlocked window, and navigated a large dark basement with multiple doors and rooms.

Found his way upstairs to the kitchen, where he would spend at least 20 minutes crafting the ransom letter, then find his way upstairs and know where JonBenet's room was from all the other doors.

Remove her from bed, take her downstairs, commit the crime, leave the body behind...then leave by the same means he entered...all with the family at home.

 

[TizerisT]

Gary Oliva had been stalking them for some time and JB in particular. He probably knew their names. He waited until they went out at 17:00 on the 25th and entered via the basement. He may have spotted this broken window previously while snooping around. John Ramsey had many financial documents and even money cheques, strewn around haphazardly. Look at this video at 1.46 to see this.

Oliva sees these documents, and formulates a new addition to his plan - a ransom note. He pokes around and finds JB's room. At 22:00 he notices the family coming back, and hides.

 

[TizerisT]

Since he didn't bring anything with him to carry out the crime,

Actually this couldnt be further from the truth. He had a black bag containing duct tape, rope and a stun gun. And probably Camel blue cigarettes.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Gary Oliva had been stalking them for some time and JB in particular. He probably knew their names. He waited until they went out at 17:00 on the 25th and entered via the basement. He may have spotted this broken window previously while snooping around. John Ramsey had many financial documents and even money cheques, strewn around haphazardly. Look at this video at 1.46 to see this.

Oliva sees these documents, and formulates a new addition to his plan - a ransom note. At 22:00 he notices the family coming back, and hides.

Is there a source for Oliva stalking them?
I never heard that before.

It sounds like you might be creating scenarios to confirm what you believe happened, rather than relying on the evidence.

There are too many nonsensical elements for it to happen that way.
For example, the rambling ransom note and what Oliva would have to go through just to carry out the crime.

Keep in mind that John Ramsey put together a team of investigators and ran his intruder theory investigation for 27 years, having the same access to evidence and police reports as the cops...and turned up nothing.

 

[TizerisT]

Is there a source for Oliva stalking them?
I never heard that before.

It sounds like you might be creating scenarios to confirm what you believe happened, rather than relying on the evidence.

There are too many nonsensical elements for it to happen that way.
For example, the rambling ransom note and what Oliva would have to go through just to carry out the crime.

Keep in mind that John Ramsey put together a team of investigators and ran his intruder theory investigation for 27 years, having the same access to evidence and police reports as the cops...and turned up nothing.

Yes this is what I believed happened. John Ramsey described Oliva as 'right at the top of the list' and the more you learn about Oliva, it's easy to see why. I recommend you to listen to what Micheal Vail has said in particular.

But turning up at JB's vigil in 1997, as a convicted paedophile, took me back in shock. No way in hell thats just a coincidence.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Yes this is what I believed happened. John Ramsey described Oliva as 'right at the top of the list' and the more you learn about Oliva, it's easy to see why. I recommend you to listen to what Micheal Vail has said in particular.

I have listened to Micheal Vail...he makes the circuit of intruder theorists.

Here is part of his Rolling Stone interview.

Pedophile Confesses to Killing JonBenet Ramsey in Letters to Friend

In a series of letters, former suspect Gary Oliva reportedly told his friend that her death was "an accident," but he saw it happen.

www.rollingstone.com

All hearsay and speculation. Vail called the police several times but they never returned his calls according to the article. They didn't take him seriously.

“My suspicions began when Gary called me late at night on December 26, 1996,” Vail, who lives in Ventura, California, told the Daily Mail. “He was sobbing and said, ‘I hurt a little girl.’ … I tried to get more information out of him. The only other thing he told me was that he was in the Boulder, Colorado area. On December 27 I read on the front page of my local newspaper ‘Girl, 6, slain in Boulder, Colorado’. … I immediately called the Boulder Police Department and told them what I knew about Gary and what he had told me just days earlier."

 

[CloudedTruth]

Actually this couldnt be further from the truth. He had a black bag containing duct tape, rope and a stun gun. And probably Camel blue cigarettes.

No one, including yourself has been able to prove that there was an intruder. There is precious little evidence that there was. So to unequivocally state your suspect brought a black bag, duct tape, rope and a stun gun is pure speculation, not truth. It also begs the question why come so well prepared but not bring a pre-written, concise and precise ransom note? It really makes no sense.

 

[Gunther Toody]

No one, including yourself has been able to prove that there was an intruder. There is precious little evidence that there was. So to unequivocally state your suspect brought a black bag, duct tape, rope and a stun gun is pure speculation, not truth. It also begs the question why come so well prepared but not bring a pre-written, concise and precise ransom note? It really makes no sense.

And as far as the ransom note..there were seven fingerprints on it.
2 from police officers and five from Patsy Ramsey.

 

[CloudedTruth]

And as far as the ransom note..there were seven fingerprints on it.
2 from police officers and five from Patsy Ramsey.

The "intruder" would have had to be wearing a hazmat suit to leave virtually no trace of himself behind. But JR had to strip down to his undies to climb through the window.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Regarding the ransom note:
Inside the Murder Investigation
ST Page 200

"One thing we managed to keep from them for a while was that the lab analysts had a partial print from the ransom note. However, it didn't belong to the killer but to Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, who handled the note during his examination. The only print identified on that note belonged to the document examiner.

There was no indication that an intruder had ever touched the ransom note. And it seemed odd to us that no prints were on the note from either of the parents, who presumably would have handled it and even gripped it tightly.

But lab analysts did identify seven latent fingerprints on the tablet from which the ransom note came. None of them belonged to an intruder. One belonged to Sergeant Whitson, who handled the tablet on the morning of December 26. A second belonged to CBI's Ubowski. The remaining five fingerprints were Patricia Ramsey's."

The pen:
Was tested by the FBI. It was determined the exact pen that was used to write the ransom note was found in the cup by the telephone.

Interviews with JR and PR
ST: ... I don’t think it’s a far reach to say that the note was written inside the house given the circumstance with the pad and the character comparison and so forth.
PR: I don’t know what the ah…
ST: The note was written from a pad inside the home.
PR: It was?
ST: Uh-huh.
PR: Oh, I didn’t know that.
_______________
BARBARA WALTERS: Another major factor. The ransom note. The ransom note was written on a pad and a pen from your home.
PATSY RAMSEY: um hum.

BARBARA WALTERS: And… the question is, if the intruder was planning to write a note why wouldn't he or she have brought their own pad and paper?
(PAUSE)
JOHN RAMSEY: They knew that the less they brought in the house the better.
BARBARA WALTERS: But they planned to write a note?
(PAUSE)
JOHN RAMSEY: Apparently.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Regarding the ransom note:
Inside the Murder Investigation
ST Page 200

"One thing we managed to keep from them for a while was that the lab analysts had a partial print from the ransom note. However, it didn't belong to the killer but to Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, who handled the note during his examination. The only print identified on that note belonged to the document examiner.

There was no indication that an intruder had ever touched the ransom note. And it seemed odd to us that no prints were on the note from either of the parents, who presumably would have handled it and even gripped it tightly.

But lab analysts did identify seven latent fingerprints on the tablet from which the ransom note came. None of them belonged to an intruder. One belonged to Sergeant Whitson, who handled the tablet on the morning of December 26. A second belonged to CBI's Ubowski. The remaining five fingerprints were Patricia Ramsey's."

The pen:
Was tested by the FBI. It was determined the exact pen that was used to write the ransom note was found in the cup by the telephone.

Interviews with JR and PR
ST: ... I don’t think it’s a far reach to say that the note was written inside the house given the circumstance with the pad and the character comparison and so forth.
PR: I don’t know what the ah…
ST: The note was written from a pad inside the home.
PR: It was?
ST: Uh-huh.
PR: Oh, I didn’t know that.
_______________
BARBARA WALTERS: Another major factor. The ransom note. The ransom note was written on a pad and a pen from your home.
PATSY RAMSEY: um hum.

BARBARA WALTERS: And… the question is, if the intruder was planning to write a note why wouldn't he or she have brought their own pad and paper?
(PAUSE)
JOHN RAMSEY: They knew that the less they brought in the house the better.
BARBARA WALTERS: But they planned to write a note?
(PAUSE)
JOHN RAMSEY: Apparently.

Ok, most of this I knew. But I had forgotten JR's comment about "they knew the less they brought in the house the better". That is some statement. If it was made to me I think I may have laughed in his face. It's ridiculous. And they want everyone to believe it was a "foreign faction", the implication of which is they were professionals well versed in this sort of thing. They would have brought everything they needed for the deed and been in and out of the home in a flash. And their victim would not have been taken to the basement to be sexually assaulted and murdered.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Regarding the ransom note:
Inside the Murder Investigation
ST Page 200

"One thing we managed to keep from them for a while was that the lab analysts had a partial print from the ransom note. However, it didn't belong to the killer but to Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, who handled the note during his examination. The only print identified on that note belonged to the document examiner.

There was no indication that an intruder had ever touched the ransom note. And it seemed odd to us that no prints were on the note from either of the parents, who presumably would have handled it and even gripped it tightly.

But lab analysts did identify seven latent fingerprints on the tablet from which the ransom note came. None of them belonged to an intruder. One belonged to Sergeant Whitson, who handled the tablet on the morning of December 26. A second belonged to CBI's Ubowski. The remaining five fingerprints were Patricia Ramsey's."

The pen:
Was tested by the FBI. It was determined the exact pen that was used to write the ransom note was found in the cup by the telephone.

Interviews with JR and PR
ST: ... I don’t think it’s a far reach to say that the note was written inside the house given the circumstance with the pad and the character comparison and so forth.
PR: I don’t know what the ah…
ST: The note was written from a pad inside the home.
PR: It was?
ST: Uh-huh.
PR: Oh, I didn’t know that.
_______________
BARBARA WALTERS: Another major factor. The ransom note. The ransom note was written on a pad and a pen from your home.
PATSY RAMSEY: um hum.

BARBARA WALTERS: And… the question is, if the intruder was planning to write a note why wouldn't he or she have brought their own pad and paper?
(PAUSE)
JOHN RAMSEY: They knew that the less they brought in the house the better.
BARBARA WALTERS: But they planned to write a note?
(PAUSE)
JOHN RAMSEY: Apparently.

I was reading about another odd event regarding the Ramsey's and something stuck out immediately, JR said the thief wore socks on his hands.

Where would that come from? Could this explain why there were no fingerprints on the ransom note in the JB case?

Here is page 5 of a police report filed in Atlanta, GA in Feb. 2001, detailing an encounter JR had with an apparent burglar in his home, and the socks are mentioned.


This was at the time the Ramseys were facing a several million dollar lawsuit from Steve Thomas, if I recall, and their main lawyer was making the rounds on TV proclaiming their innocence.

 

[Meara]

But back to the topic of this particular forum thread, re: the RN... I've never understood why the Sharpie keeps being used as evidence for PDI, as if there was only one Sharpie ever made in the world. Even only one black fine-tip Sharpie or whatever it was. Pretty sure those are pretty common, imo. And as far as i know, forensics can't tell us whether it was that same pen found in the house that was used. Just that same type of (common) pen (and even that seems to allow room for other possible pens that look the same on the page.) And the fact that Patsy's Sharpie pen was found to be in its usual place? Maybe that's because it was not the pen that was used to write the note! That can be evidence of that, maybe more so than evidence that it was. I'm not saying I believe either way, just that imo, there is room for reasonable doubt on that point.

The Sharpie keeps being used as evidence for PDI because investigators found an exact match between the ink in the pen, the ink used in the ransom note, and the ink in other items Patsy had written.

Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation; Kindle, p. 54
We were then brought up to date on a new discovery. Crime scene techs at the house had recovered three Sharpie felt-tip pens from an orange metal container on the kitchen counter beneath the telephone from which Patsy had made her 911 call, not far from where the ransom note tablet was found.....the U.S. Secret Service eventually determined that one of those pens, a pre-November 1992 water-based ink Sharpie, was used to write both the practice and actual ransom notes. The Secret Service, which maintains a huge database on inks because of its federally mandated assignment to chase forgers, told us, “The ink [on the notes] is unique in the collection of approximately 7,000 standards from the Ink Library.” That meant that whoever wrote the notes used that exact pen from that cup. They not only left the pad behind but, when they finished, neatly put the felt-tip pen in its container.

Perfect Murder, Perfect Town; Kindle, p.667
The police listed twenty-five indications that pointed away from an intruder: Lab tests showed that the fine-line Sharpie pen with which the note was written was one that Patsy had used before.