The Murder of Bill and Lorraine Currier

[bessie]

Police: Missing Essex couple's disappearance suspicious

Essex, Vermont - June 9, 2011
By Jennifer Reading
WCAX
Colbert Street is a quiet suburban road in Essex. But police say something is just not right at the home of Bill and Lorraine Currier.

"They left their medications behind. Medications that they need to take daily and it looked as though they left rather hastily," Essex Police Cpl. Christina Ashley said.
A family member called police Thursday morning after discovering that neither Bill nor Lorraine showed up for work, telling police it was out of character for the couple.
"We have no idea why they're gone or how they have left," Ashley said.

FBI trace Currier case to New York

Posted: Oct 25, 2012 4:48 PM CST Updated: Oct 28, 2012 1:00 PM CST
By Jennifer Reading
WCAX
Wednesday morning Patrick Guagliano was biking down Poplar Rd. in Constable, New York when he noticed something strange. "In a distance, it looked like a bunch of hunters in orange outfits walking around," he said.

Turns out it was dozens of state police and FBI investigators. They were digging around a cabin and ten acre plot belonging to 34-year-old Israel Keyes.
Thousands of miles from Constable, a simultaneous search was underway in Alaska. Federal authorities executed a new search warrant on Keyes' primary residence. They would not say what they were looking for. These dual searches come three weeks after prosecutors in Alaska told Keyes' defense team he's being investigated in other cases.

Officials confirm Alaska suspect killed Vt. couple

Posted: Dec 03, 2012 1:33 PM CDT Updated: Dec 05, 2012 5:48 PM CDT
By Jennifer Reading
WCAX
"By all accounts they were friendly, peaceful, good people, who encountered a force of pure evil acting at random," said U.S. Attorney for Vermont Tris Coffin.
"It's clear from the facts of this case, that though confronted with death, Bill and Lorraine Currier showed extraordinary bravery and courage and extreme dedication and love to each other. They fought to the end," said Chittenden County State's Attorney T.J. Donovan.

How investigators got Israel Keyes to confess

Posted: Dec 05, 2012 5:12 PM CDT Updated: Dec 07, 2012 4:00 PM CDT
By Jennifer Reading
WCAX
We had a strategy going there to convince him that it was in his interest to tell us about the Curriers," Russo said. The feds say they outlined the evidence they had against him, showing him what they planned to prove in court. It worked.

"He basically took out a Google map and told us where they were buried. And then went into details with investigators later on as to what happened to Bill and Lorraine Currier," Russo said.

FBI releases new details on Israel Keyes' alleged crimes

Posted: Aug 13, 2013 7:33 PM CST Updated: Aug 15, 2013 4:00 PM CST
By Jennifer Reading
WCAX
"His crimes were meticulously planned, and our interviews with him were the same in a way," said Special Agent Jolene Goeden, FBI Anchorage Division, "I never got the sense that he accidentally told us something or got angry and something flew out of his mouth. My impression was that he always knew what he was going to give us."

"He gave us a number of clues," Goeden said. "He talked openly about some of the homicides, but much of what he said only hinted at the things he had done. So we are trying to get information out there about what he did tell us."

Investigators believe that in 2009 Keyes killed and buried another victim in upstate New York, but ruled out his Constable, N.Y., property as the burial ground.

 

[Wondergirl]

Property owned by Keyes in Constable, NY on the Canadian border, near Watertown, NY. Watertown is a major cross-border shopping destination for Canadians. This house is ultra-creepy.

According to Franklin County real property records, Keyes has been paying taxes on the 10-acre parcel at 511 Poplar St., Constable since Oct. 23, 1997. The address listed for Keyes in the real property records is the same as is listed in a Yahoo! Local entry for his Anchorage contracting business, Keyes Construction. The business is named in numerous recent Alaskan media reports talking about the Koenig murder.

W & B P, who live just down the road from the Keyes house in Constable, said they recall an Amish family with a couple of children living there for a very brief stint in the summer of either 2008 or 2009. They could not recall the exact time frame.

“They weren’t there a month and they moved right on,” Mr. Patnode said.

Keyes was raised in an Amish family and was one of nine siblings.

Keyes would have been about 19 years old when he acquired the land in Constable. The actual deed is listed as belonging to a different Israel Keyes, this one from Colville, Wash., and 10 years older than the accused murderer from Anchorage. The lawyer who oversaw the transaction was Thomas LaRocque of Malone. He could not be reached for comment.

http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20120803/DCO01/708039920/

 

[Wondergirl]

It would be nice if LE was checking the forest, but, I highly doubt it, without a lead. Good grief.

"There were state police, and it might've been the FBI," Guagliano said. "Between 25 and 30 people getting out of vehicles. ... There were a bunch of them getting ready to head into the woods."

The New York state police referred questions about the search to the FBI. A New York spokeswoman for the FBI declined to comment.

According to property records for Franklin County, in which Contable sits about five miles south of the U.S. border with Canada, Keyes bought the property in 1997 when he was 19. The property includes a two-bedroom house built in 1890 and listed in poor condition.

Nobody has been seen living at the red house for at least 10 years, probably longer, Guagliano said.

"It's old. It's shambled. The roof's caved in. Unkempt, you might say," he said. "From the looks of everything, it hasn't been kept up in years. It's really in bad shape."

With little development in the area and a 686-acre state forest nearby, the woods stretch for miles, Guagliano said.

"We're out in the middle of no man's land," he said. "You could put anything and everything out there, and nobody would ever know it."

Hunters and neighbors pass through from time to time, and sometimes people go onto Keyes' land to get water from a well, said Chana O'Leary, Guagliano's friend and the nearest neighbor to Keyes' property. O'Leary said she lives about a mile away.

Read more here: http://www.adn.com/2012/10/26/2673032/searchers-scour-keyes-new-york.html#storylink=cpy

 

[Wondergirl]

Decrepit site scoured for muder

This spot at 511 Poplar St., Constable, shows evidence of having been disturbed recently. In addition to obvious dig spots, the property is rife with foot paths in the surrounding woods and into the house and outlying structures on the property.

In addition, a Burlington, Vt., TV station, WCAX, reported Thursday that a neighbor said he called police after discovering what appeared to be a shallow grave on the 10-acre property at 511 Poplar St. in Constable. The unidentified neighbor is said to have led the FBI to the location.

http://www.ogd.com/article/20121028/NEWS07/710289806

 

[Wondergirl]

Here are pictures of one of Keyes "kill kits".

BURLINGTON, Vt. -

Two years before he killed Bill and Lorraine Currier, Israel Keyes buried a so-called "kill kit," in Essex.

The FBI in Alaska tells Channel 3 News, the serial killer buried a five gallon bucket, filled with ammunition, a silencer, gun scope, wires, a flashlight and other supplies, in the Woodside Natural Area along the Winooski River. It's located in Essex near the intersection of Susie Wilson Road and Route 15. Keyes was staying at the Handy Suites nearby. He stayed there again June of last year -- dug up the bucket -- and used those supplies when he kidnapped and killed the Curriers.

http://www.wcax.com/story/20284433/keyes-kill-kit-unearthed-in-new-york

 

[Lucky 1]

http://www.wcax.com/story/14877883/police-missing-essex-couples-disappearance-suspicious
Police: Missing Essex couple's disappearance suspicious
Essex, Vermont - June 9, 2011

"They were in their pool yesterday," said Pat Godard, who has lived across the street from the Curriers for a couple of years.

WCAX News has learned that the couple's Ruger handgun may also be missing from the home.

http://www.wcax.com/story/14882641/state-investigators-join-search-for-missing-essex-couple
Police find missing Essex couple's car
Essex, Vermont - June 10, 2011

"I'm nervous. I don't know about everyone else on the street," Jennifer Roberge said.

Roberge lives down the street from the Curriers. She says she wishes she paid closer attention to her dog's behavior the night the Curriers may have disappeared.

"Very unusual," Roberge said. "When she was in the house she kept going to the door and she was just acting really weird."

Police think the Curriers vanished sometime between 5 p.m. Wednesday and 10 a.m. Thursday.

http://www.wcax.com/story/14887431/police-want-info-about-missing-couples-car
Police want info about missing couple's car
Essex, Vermont - June 10, 2011

They haven't showed up for work since Wednesday. Lorraine works for Fletcher Allen and Bill at UVM. Their employers say this is uncharacteristic. RB, a colleague of Bill explains, "He comes to work with his wife and goes home with her. They carpool. That's the other thing that was so odd because he's always the first person in and he just wasn't here."

http://www.wcax.com/story/14904570/still-no-word-on-missing-essex-couple
Police release sketch of man seen driving missing couple's car
Essex, Vermont - June 14, 2011

The couple only owns one car and Bill's employer told us he doesn't drive. A DMV check revealed that Bill Currier does not have a valid Vermont driver's license. In 1986 it was suspended for 90 days after he got a DUI. He never reinstated it.

http://www.wcax.com/story/14912502/vt-police-say-sketch-brings-tips-on-missing-pair
Sketch brings tips on missing Essex couple
Essex, Vermont - June 15, 2011

Police say an eyewitness puts the man in the sketch in the Essex Junction Shopping Center around 1:30 p.m. Thursday. And police are confident their eyewitness got a good look.

http://www.wcax.com/story/14928451/reward-to-be-offered-for-missing-vt-couple
Reward offered in Essex missing couple case
Essex Junction, Vermont - June 17, 2011

Earlier this week the Chittenden County Probate Court approved MC's request to become the emergency temporary guardian of the couple's assets. This means she will have control of Bill and Lorraine's home, bank accounts and wages until September 14.

http://www.wcax.com/story/14970315/vt-police-say-chance-of-finding-couple-dwindling
Police launch another search for missing Essex couple
Essex, Vermont - June 24, 2011

"No activity on a credit card or any type of bank transactions, cellphone activity would indicate that someone is not present. Not around. Not alive. Possibly," LaRose said.

http://www.wcax.com/story/15099579/vt-police-foul-play-suspected-in-disappearance
Police: Foul play suspected in Currier disappearance
Essex, Vermont - July 18, 2011

Investigators were unable to get a glimpse of the Curriers or the car on area surveillance footage. They haven't located the couple's missing gun

http://www.wcax.com/story/15112457/outside-dna-test-ordered-for-missing-essex-couple
Outside DNA test ordered for missing Essex couple
Essex, Vermont - July 20, 2011

But now police want to subject the evidence to some sort of state-of-the-art testing performed at an out-of-state government lab. Acting Essex Police Chief Brad LaRose says the testing is necessary to help them figure out what may have happened to the Curriers. And the select board is backing him up.

"The type of testing done is unique in and of itself. So it's not a situation where another type of testing failed so we have to revert to this. No, this is right of out the shoot we go with the testing on this material seized," LaRose said.

http://www.wcax.com/story/15209975/police-expand-search-for-missing-essex-couple
Police expand search for missing Essex couple
Essex, Vermont - August 4, 2011

The couple's car ended up next to a Dumpster at the Pearl Street Apartments, less than a mile from their home. But police now say they've discovered the Curriers had their car serviced just days before they vanished and there's actually 40 miles unaccounted for.

http://www.wcax.com/story/15869674/currier-ground-search-resumes
Currier ground search resumes
Essex, Vermont - October 25, 2011

Police say in the early stages of their investigation they subpoenaed Verizon for the Curriers' cell phone records. They didn't get a complete set until September and that's when they discovered a big clue. On the morning that the Curriers were reported missing, police say a call came into Bill Currier's cell phone at 7:27 from his employer at UVM. No one answered that call but it rang long enough that the signal was picked up from a cell phone tower and police say that could be the biggest break in the case.

"This cone here in yellow is the possible area of the location of the cell phone when the connection to this tower was made," Capt. LaRose said.

http://www.wcax.com/story/17394479/new-developments-in-currier-case
Police dig for evidence in Currier case
Posted: Apr 12, 2012 11:29 AM EST Updated: Apr 15, 2012 5:00 PM EST

"Since the house has been vacant a couple of years, the Essex police coming and going just for homeless people being there and checking on it," said JD who works nearby.

The address where police are digging is 32 Upper Main Street in Essex. There used to be a vacant home here until last fall, when it was demolished. According to the town clerk the property was purchased in October by BA. Neighbors say it was a known hangout for squatters.

Bill and Lorraine Currier disappeared from their Colbert Street home on June 8. The dig site is not far from the couple's home.

http://www.wcax.com/story/18220153/insight-into-latest-developments-in-currier-case
Insight into latest developments in Currier case
Posted: May 08, 2012 6:23 PM EST Updated: May 10, 2012 5:01 PM EST

"It's possible they have someone in custody for a different crime who they hope and expect to be able to charge with this," O'Neill said. "My read of it is they have a very good idea of who did it either through witnesses who have identified that person and identified the crime or someone who has confessed to it, but they really want to nail it down by finding the bodies to put it directly."

http://www.wcax.com/story/19066484/missing-couple-murdered-the-mystery-unravels
Missing couple murdered? The mystery unravels
Posted: Jul 19, 2012 2:39 PM EST Updated: Jul 22, 2012 5:00 PM EST

Sources close to the investigation say state and federal authorities have shut down the dig, and we're told that Friday they will announce the couple was murdered.

http://www.wcax.com/story/19073463/new-details-on-suspect-in-currier-murders
New details on suspect in Currier murders
Posted: Jul 20, 2012 10:36 AM EST Updated: Jul 23, 2012 5:01 PM EST

Authorities would not identify the suspect. But a WCAX News investigation over the last several months has led us to the identity of the man suspected of killing the Curriers. His name is Israel Keyes, and we have also learned he owns property in our region.

Sources tell WCAX News that while Keyes was being questioned about the Alaska murder, he told investigators where they could find the bodies of a missing Vermont couple.

Keyes has not been charged with the murders of Bill and Lorraine Currier, but charges are expected.

Police would not comment on whether they believe they have a serial killer on their hands.

http://www.wcax.com/story/19142109/why-are-nh-authorities-discussing-i
Why are NH authorities talking about Israel Keyes?
Posted: Jul 29, 2012 7:24 PM EST Updated: Jul 31, 2012 6:58 PM EST

Authorities in New Hampshire who are investigating the homicide of Celina Cass are taking an interest in Israel Keyes. Keyes is a suspect in the murders of Bill and Lorraine Currier.

Vermont authorities in charge of the Currier case told to media nine days ago that Bill and Lorraine were randomly targeted, abducted from their home then murdered shortly thereafter. They revealed that the suspect was in custody out of state on another charge -- but they would not say who. Channel 3 confirmed that suspect is 34-year-old Keyes who's in a federal prison in Alaska for allegedly kidnapping and killing an 18-year-old there.

http://www.wcax.com/story/19918423/fbi-follow-currier-lead-to-new-york
FBI trace Currier case to New York
Posted: Oct 25, 2012 5:48 PM EST Updated: Oct 28, 2012 2:00 PM EST

Another neighbor told WCAX-TV that about two months ago he called police after stumbling upon what appeared to be a shallow grave on the property. Tuesday he led an FBI agent to the same spot.

Keyes purchased the property in 1997. People in the area never remember seeing him, but they do remember an Amish family. They say this family rented from Keyes about four years ago -- stayed two months -- and disappeared. No one knows where they went or who they are.

http://www.wcax.com/story/20250669/currier-neighbors-co-workers-reflect-on-loss
Currier neighbors, co-workers reflect on loss
Posted: Dec 03, 2012 6:49 PM EDT Updated: Dec 05, 2012 6:48 PM EDT

http://www.wcax.com/story/20250874/authorities-left-to-unravel-keyes-unsolved-murders
Federal authorities left to unravel unsolved murders
Posted: Dec 03, 2012 7:15 PM EDT Updated: Dec 05, 2012 6:48 PM EDT

Police said Keyes had been following coverage of the Currier investigation in the media before and after he was arrested in the Koenig case.

http://www.wcax.com/story/20250874/authorities-left-to-unravel-keyes-unsolved-murders
Federal authorities left to unravel unsolved murders
Posted: Dec 03, 2012 7:15 PM EDT Updated: Dec 05, 2012 6:48 PM EDT

http://www.wcax.com/story/20247989/officials-confirm-alaska-suspect-killed-vt-couple
Officials confirm Alaska suspect killed Vt. couple
Posted: Dec 03, 2012 2:33 PM EDT Updated: Dec 05, 2012 6:48 PM EDT

BURLINGTON, Vt. -
Israel Keyes confessed to killing the Curriers after being arrested for another murder in Alaska. Monday federal and state prosecutors revealed what Keyes told them about why he targeted the Curriers and how he carried out their murders.

Police read a statement from the Curriers' family, thanking the public and the police for their support. The family says Keyes' death ends this chapter in their lives and they are now starting on a new chapter of healing.

The Curriers' relatives will have that chance for closure because Israel Keyes confessed to their killing. Other families may not have that chance, because Keyes committed suicide Sunday in his Alaska jail cell. Authorities believe he took to his grave information about at least five more murders in Washington and New York.

Investigators said Keyes knew many specific details about the Curriers and their home that were never released to the public. They also found Keyes' gun and Lorraine Currier's gun in a reservoir in New York, right where Keyes told them they would be.

http://www.wcax.com/story/20250812/curriers-good-people-who-encountered-a-force-of-pure-evil
U.S. Attorney: Curriers encountered 'force of pure evil'
Posted: Dec 03, 2012 7:07 PM EDT Updated: Dec 05, 2012 6:48 PM EDT

http://www.wcax.com/story/20252077/more-keyes-details-surface-including-audio-recording
More Keyes details surface, including audio recording
Posted: Dec 03, 2012 11:46 PM EDT Updated: Dec 05, 2012 11:46 PM EDT

 

[Joe Friday]

The random, horrific killing of a Vt. couple revisited
Advertisement

'Confessions of a Serial Killer': Why did Israel Keyes kill Bill and Lorraine Currier?


http://www.frequency.com/video/random-horrific-killing-of-vt-couple/117615662/-/4-939

 

[digndoodle]

It would be nice if LE was checking the forest, but, I highly doubt it, without a lead. Good grief.

This is a link to the November 29th interview and script is below
This is where they are showing Keyes photo's of what they found on his NY property and also they say to him there will be more to come--some items were still being processed at the lab they sent them too
Personally in mo.....Some things they showed him that day seemed to really upset him and I think he was really surprised when he saw some of those photo's so bad that 2 days later he was dead!!!

======================================

http://www.fbi.gov/anchorage/video/israel-keyes-interview-november-29-2012

===================================================

 

[Backwoods]

One thing that stands out for me in the story of the Curriers' murder, according to IK, is that he got "lucky" for their bodies not to be found.

Yeah, he scoped out the abandoned house and all -- but according to some of the reports, the house was known to attract squatters, homeless, etc. He is lucky he didn't have company drop in in the middle of things (and probably that possible "company" is lucky he/she/they didn't drop in, too).

...Staffers at a neighboring business say they've noticed a constant stream of police activity at the property over the years and a ramped up effort in the last two weeks.


"Since the house has been vacant a couple of years, the Essex police coming and going just for homeless people being there and checking on it," said Jeanne Dufresne who works nearby....

http://www.wcax.com/story/17394479/new-developments-in-currier-case


And then putting them in bags under some debris in the basement?

...He placed both bodies in separate garbage bags in the basement and covered them with debris....

http://www.wcax.com/story/20250812/curriers-good-people-who-encountered-a-force-of-pure-evil


That's not all that foolproof, is it?

Am I remembering correctly, that he talked of thinking he would burn the abandoned house...? But he didn't.

The bodies of the Curriers easily could have been found, if things had gone a little differently. But, as it happened, they weren't ... and the house was demolished and their remains hauled away with the debris, not to be found. So in the end it DID "work out" for IK, but it just seems to me that he took some chances maybe unusual for him here.

Maybe he was "slipping" a little, even before Samantha?

Of course, there is the chance that the story, as he told it, is not true. HRD dogs later detected (after the house and debris were gone) that deceased persons had been in the basement area of the old house, I think ... but maybe IK didn't really leave them there?

 

[puppyraiser]

Would there have been a notice on the house stating it was slated for demolition on a certain date?

 

[Backwoods]

Would there have been a notice on the house stating it was slated for demolition on a certain date?

Don't know, puppyraiser -- good thought.

I'm not even sure when it WAS demolished...

 

[cynar]

Look upward in the thread -- news stories say the farmhouse was sold to the neighbor in October 2011 and demolished "last fall" (these are news stories published in July 2012).

Seems like the neighbor bought the property and promptly demolished the house. The house was not marked for demolition at some future date in June of 2011 when the murders occurred.

One more point: the Constable property had no bodies buried on it. It's true we'll never know about the woods, but I tend to believe him that he operated far from places he lived until the SK killing in 2/12.

 

[northxnorthwest]

Would there have been a notice on the house stating it was slated for demolition on a certain date?

Generally yes, it would be public information if the city/county was in charge of demolition. It may vary state to state, I know in WA that is always done with a public notice posted months in advance. Info also availiable online about building demolition.

I cannot believe the demolays went into the basement of the farmhouse and smelled decomposition (seems like it was a really strong smell) coming from the basement....but didn't go look around and see. They just tore the house down and took it away. /:

 

[Foxfire]

Generally yes, it would be public information if the city/county was in charge of demolition. It may vary state to state, I know in WA that is always done with a public notice posted months in advance. Info also availiable online about building demolition.

I cannot believe the demolays went into the basement of the farmhouse and smelled decomposition (seems like it was a really strong smell) coming from the basement....but didn't go look around and see. They just tore the house down and took it away. /:

Imo, they suspected possible foul play. If they had contacted LE. LE would have deemed it a crime scene and delayed their demolition for day$ or week$..jmo..

IK would have scouted out the house prior and possibly slept there a night or two. He was familiar with it and felt it was a safe haven, or he would not haven taken the Curriers there to carry out his evil rituals, imo..

 

[Montjoy]

or he would not haven taken the Curriers there to carry out his evil rituals, imo..

RSBM --

Not to doubt or question IK's wickedness, but what to what rituals are you referring? I have never read anything about ritual elements in his murders beyond things he did for expediency or efficiency. Do you have any link or reference to properly ritualistic elements? TIA.

 

[Foxfire]

Look upward in the thread -- news stories say the farmhouse was sold to the neighbor in October 2011 and demolished "last fall" (these are news stories published in July 2012).

Seems like the neighbor bought the property and promptly demolished the house. The house was not marked for demolition at some future date in June of 2011 when the murders occurred.

One more point: the Constable property had no bodies buried on it. It's true we'll never know about the woods, but I tend to believe him that he operated far from places he lived until the SK killing in 2/12.

As in the Castro House; 'house of horrors', where he kept the Cleveland three, many times, houses where high profile crimes took place are demolished for various reasons. If not demolished, due to the evil residue, they will eventually be torched by arsonists...imo

 

[Foxfire]

RSBM --

Not to doubt or question IK's wickedness, but what to what rituals are you referring? I have never read anything about ritual elements in his murders beyond things he did for expediency or efficiency. Do you have any link or reference to properly ritualistic elements? TIA.

The evil rituals that IK performed on his victims, as do all experienced and escalated sexual predators/serial killers.. No link required for reasonable thinking people, imo.. Research it, Montjoy..

 

[Montjoy]

The evil rituals that IK performed on his victims, as do all experienced and escalated sexual predators/serial killers.. No link required for reasonable thinking people, imo.. Research it, Montjoy..

No, I'm sorry, but that just isn't an answer at all. It makes me wonder what you mean by 'ritual'. It does not just mean nasty stuff like killing. I have researched it, and see nothing ritualistic, so perhaps you could just answer a direct question.

ETA -- not all serial murderers are ritualistic. It would be misinformation (if you like, an antiquated strategy of misinformation) to suggest that all 'experienced or escalated' serial murderers are of the same ilk.

 

[Foxfire]

No, I'm sorry, but that just isn't an answer at all. It makes me wonder what you mean by 'ritual'. It does not just mean nasty stuff like killing. I have researched it, and see nothing ritualistic, so perhaps you could just answer a direct question.

ETA -- not all serial murderers are ritualistic. It would be misinformation (if you like, an antiquated strategy of misinformation) to suggest that all 'experienced or escalated' serial murderers are of the same ilk.

'For those who believe, no proof is necessary and for those who disbelieve, no proof is possible'-Quote Stuart Chase..

There may also be cultural, psychological, and psychosexual elements to a ritual murder. The hallmark of a ritual killing is evidence of acts not necessary to bring about death. For example, bite marks, excessive violence, and sexual assault may be found in connection with a ritual killing.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/11/alaska-serial-killer-research.html

Ted Bundy, who happened to be one of Israel Keyes’ murderous idols, also happened to be a ritual killer. Bite marks on one of his victims was critical evidence in his FL conviction, death sentence, and eventual execution..

 

[Montjoy]

Ok, I guess that you are conceding that there were no ritualistic elements in the murders of the Curriers, since there is absolutely nothing in your post or link to suggest that there were -- it seems you're just repeating the same thing you have asserted before.